Necromancy - this unknown


Advice


Hey guys,
seeing a lot of topics about it, made me fall into curiosity, so here are some questions:

1)Which class does make the best necromancer?
2)What are differences beside arcane and divine, about necromancy?
3)Are there ways to become an undead as a character?
4)As a necromancer could you "re-animate/animate" undead with all the templates you want, or are you limited?
5)Is necromancy always an evil act to perform?

For now those are :D thanks in advance for the help! I'm facing this new thing!


Confused Goblin wrote:

Hey guys,

seeing a lot of topics about it, made me fall into curiosity, so here are some questions:

1)Which class does make the best necromancer?
2)What are differences beside arcane and divine, about necromancy?
3)Are there ways to become an undead as a character?
4)As a necromancer could you "re-animate/animate" undead with all the templates you want, or are you limited?
5)Is necromancy always an evil act to perform?

For now those are :D thanks in advance for the help! I'm facing this new thing!

1) Depends what you consider best. I consider Wizard the Best class in the game so my answer is Wizard...followed by cleric. But I also do not think mass armies of undead make the best necromancers. They are good but should not be your sole focus.

2) The spells available and not needing to depend on favor with a god/goddess

3) Yes

4)There are templates you can use

5) Typically the spells are labeled Evil, thus it is an evil act. Necromancy as a whole is not all evil...But animating dead is evil. If you think Necromancy=Undead raising you misunderstand the entire school of magic.

A GM or the Campaign setting might change how raising the undead is viewed. But in PFS it is an evil act. But in PFS you can cast 3 good spells and go from Neutral to Good. so if you cast Animate dead followed by Protection from Evil you pretty much equal out your alignment. But that is Strictly RAW and can be abused to stay neutral or good and still raise undead.


Thanks for your answers.

1)I don't know honestly, Arcanes are fantastic at crowd control, you've spells helping the team and helping controlling the sorts of the battle.
Divines help with heal and buffs for the whole party, that's the general idea i made so far.
Well i agree. For me the best way to be a necromancer is to get few but strong creatures (this is easier to manage and doesn't get your party hating you because of dice rolling and long times actions, and it's cool aswell to have a big powerful monster instead of 1000 weak skeletons.

2)Depending on a deity's favor is a problem? I don't get it ^m^

3)So, how to become an undead?

4)So you're limited on some templates only?

5)Clear as water is.


1) I think Juju Oracles are held in pretty high acclaimnot sure why though never looked into it. Anyway generally I'd go Oracle or Cleric because they get Desecrate and they get animate dead at a lower level. Not t mention Oracles are Charisma focused so if they grab channel negative energy through Bones mystery they have more channels at a higher DC for control undead.

2) divine casters get some important spells early or at all. They also get harm and heal, heal good for if someone steals your buddies. Also the Inflict line of spells.

3) liches are a thing but they take DM fiat probably some other ways too, Vampires are a thing.

4) templates are fun fast zombies and bloody fiery skeletons are particularly fun.

5) what Louise said.


1) Yeah Desecrate was exactly what i was thinkin of... how do you get that as a wizard? You can't right?

2) Does inflict heal undeads?

3) Yeah right liches, but how you can become one during the campaign... i mean is there some kind of a ritual?

4) Ok, but my question is, am i limited to those 2-3 or can i create mummys, liches or whatever?


1) UMD and a scroll. Or limited Wish. I do not put much stock in suggestions based on a single spell when Wizards can UMD and Limited Wish the same spells. There is a reason wizards are the most powerful and versitile class in the game.

2) yes but I never heal mine...I just raise more. I use my actions to help make a body count.

4) Create undead spell line.

3) is completely up to the DM running the game. In PFS no.


Many of the badies in the game I run are necromancers and the undead is a major theme in the game so I will be keeping an eye on this thread. Now I will summon the small text wall to give you my humble option.

1)It depends on what you want for your necromancer. I love cleric and wizard necromancers. I actually had a blast and the players loved the fight against a Mystic Theurge wizard / cleric boss. That was a brutal fight. Your spell level is a little low but I love that build. Another fun one is the Witch with the Gravewalker archetype. That archetype gets some of the fun raising dead spell, great debuff spells from the witch spell list, and the archetype abilities are very thematic. Though do not write out the Sorcerer. They are not as versatile as a wizard or a cleric but the spontaneous caster factor is nice.

2) Per the specific spells not a lot. Animate dead is animate dead. But it matters for the caster. In the case of a Cleric, whom is most likely a worshiper of Ugathoa, the raising of the dead is most likely part of their devotions. For a wizard the raising of the dead is for a variety of reasons. Fascination with the dead, a want for power, the beginning of their way to undeath themselves, ect. For the Gravewalker it is part of their pact with their patron or the same as a wizard. Oracles has just as long a list of reason. Oracles are plagued by 'voices' commonly thought to be deities but it could be powerful beings and they are doing those beings bidding. The Possessed Oracle archetype with the bones mystery is a fun option for this style of play.

3)That is always up to the GM and then the player. I do not know of a set way to become a Lich. It is a personal journey that is different for each Lich, but is typically very evil. I do recall hearing about Elves in 3.5 who would become a Lich so that they could become eternal guardians and this was the only not so evil option. Mummies could be evil or good I suppose. Encounters with certain undead can leave you as their kind with failed saves. But ultimately it is up to the GM and the party. So long as everyone wants to play with an undead in the group then it should be fine. At that point you just need a good story.

4)Per the rules you are limited to hit dice and templates add to that. So long as you stay in the limit you should be fine. That is why the Desecrate spell is awesome! It adds to the total.

5)If it says evil in the spell discretion then yes. But if you can sell it to the GM the right way you might get around it. But in this case you are trying to play a good guy who has to use evil for good. In this case I would play a Sorcerer. They do not have a choice in spells like a Wizard. The magic simply happens and is a part of them. In this case the Sorcerer only raises the dead to fight evil and never to grab for power. They always make sure the undead are put to rest after they have fulfilled their purpose.


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1) It's debatable, but Wizard and Cleric are generally the best classes.
2) Here's how I'd put the comparison:

Spoiler:

Arcane necromancers are better because:
* Wizards and School Savant Arcanists get Command Undead for free at level 1, instead of having to devote feat slots to them.
* Access to the spell blood money, so they can effectively cast animate dead for free by taking Strength damage
* Access to additional spells for controlling undead, letting them break the limit of "caster level x 4 HD" for controlling undead
Divine necromancers are better because:
* Gain access to their animation spells one spell level earlier
* Access to desecrate
* Access to inflict spells and channeling negative energy to heal their minions

There are a handful of exceptions, though. The Undead Master wizard archetype gets animate dead and create undead one spell level earlier than normal, and the wizard/sorcerer spell list has a "(mass) repair undead" spell that works like inflict light wounds but can only be used to heal undead creatures


3) Yes, but they usually involve either being killed by an undead or being a high-level caster.
4) By default, you can animate zombies and skeletons. With extra spells or by spending extra materials, you can animate variant zombies and skeletons. The Bestiary only lists fast/plague zombies and burning/bloody skeletons, but there are other variants that the DM may allow you to use. Bestiary 4 has necrocrafts (basically undead/golem hybrids), but the rules for them are honestly kind of "meh" for what you can make. Aside from that, you need create undead or greater create undead, which lets you make more advanced undead based on your caster level.
5) Spells of the necromancy spell are not inherently evil, but some of them (like animate dead/create undead) have the evil descriptor, making it an evil act to cast them. Now, I'm one of those people who would argue that undead can be used for good purposes, but there are some, mainly good divine casters and worshipers of Pharasma, who will come after you for raising undead. Plus, necromantic animation is a slippery slope; "I raised the town's graveyard as skeletons to defend the outmatched villagers from an orc raiding party" is justifiable the first time, but the more you do it the easier it's going to become to eventually say "the villagers won't need people to protect them if they're all ghouls!"


The main advantage of the juju oracles at necromancy is pretty simple:
Spirit Vessels (Su): You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you. When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD. In addition, any zombies or juju zombies you create using animate dead, create undead, or similar spells possess maximum hit points.

That they can make Juju zombies at level 10 instead of 11+ is only worth mentioning because of the max HP that the above gives them.


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Posting two builds from a previous thread I was in about necromancer stuff.

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Class

I personally prefer a Gravewalker Witch/Hex Channeler. Take the Plague Patron to gain a bunch of good spells for free such as animate dead and command undead.

Gravewalker gives you a ranged Deliver Touch Spell.

Quote:

Deliver Touch Spells (Su)

At 3rd level or higher, a gravewalker can use her poppet to deliver touch spells. After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action, the witch can designate a target and stab a pin into her poppet, delivering the spell as a ranged touch attack. The target must be within range of her aura of desecration ability.

This is helpful for buffing and healing your minions.

It also gets Bonethrall which is sort of like the Command Undead feat.

Quote:

Bonethrall (Su)

At 1st level, a gravewalker can take control of an undead creature within her aura of desecration by forcing her will upon it (Will negates, using her hex DC.) If it fails the save, the creature falls under her control as if she had used command undead (once control is established, the undead remain controlled even if outside the witch’s aura). Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist her command. The witch can control up to 1 HD of undead creatures per caster level. If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, the witch must make an opposed Charisma check whenever her orders conflict with that creature’s.

However, my favorite ability is Possess Undead.

Quote:

Possess Undead (Sp)

A gravewalker may take direct control of one of her undead minions within her aura of desecration, as if using magic jar; the witch’s poppet acts as the soul receptacle for this ability. The minion gets no saving throw against this ability.

This ability allows the his ability allows the necromancer to be in the front lines, commanding their minions without putting him/herself in danger. Its like being a less annoying/powerful Lich.

Hex Channeler removes the Gravewalker's biggest drawback when it comes to minion upkeep; the lack of channel negative energy. Since you have access to channel, you can also take the Command Undead feat for even more HD of undead. I'm pretty sure you can use both Bonethrall and Command Undead without any issues, but if I'm wrong someone please tell me.

Race

Halfling.

The favored class bonus for a halfling witch increases the CL of your patrons spells by 1/4. This would allow you to create more undead with animate dead and control them longer through the command undead spell.

Feats
Command Undead (if you want as many minions as possible)

Items

Voidstick. This item gives you desecrate which is a helpful spell.

Lesser Metamagic Rod: Extend. Use these to increase Command Undead's (the spell) duration.

Flawed Orange Prism

Traits

Gifted Adept. Increase animate dead's CL.

Drawbacks

You aren't healed by negative energy unless you're possessing one of your undead.

Miscellaneous
1. Bloody Skeletons are amazing.
2. Make fast zombie flying creatures if possible.
3. Only use Create Undead if this is for an NPC. Intelligent undead have a bad habit of betraying you and they don't like being mind controlled usually.

Total Number of Controlled Undead

At level 20, I think you can control 148 HD of undead with animate undead, Bonethrall, and Command Undead (feat) using this build. That number doesn't include the command undead spell.

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This is another option. I think it might allow for even more minions than the Gravewalker/Hex Channeler.

Dhampir Cruoromancer (Wizard)/Agent of the Grave

Race

Dhampir. The dhampir wizard's favored class bonus increases the CL of all necromancy spells by 1/4. This means more undead and longer command unead spells. It also has Negative Energy Affinity so you can be healed by negative energy instead of positive energy.

Class

Cruoromancer Wizard with the Necromancy arcane school. You'll get the Command Undead feat for free.

Blood Command is a gem.

Quote:

Blood Command (Su)

At 5th level, a cruoromancer can control up to 5 Hit Dice worth of undead creatures per caster level instead of the normal 4 Hit Dice of undead when casting the animate dead spell. He also gains the following blood infusion ability.

Agent of the Grave has this ability.

Quote:

Inspired Necromancy (Ex)

When determining the maximum number of Hit Dice of undead he can control with spells like animate dead, a character counts his Agent of the Grave levels twice. This ability does not factor into how many undead he can create with a single casting of a spell. Thus, a cleric 7/Agent of the Grave 3 would be able to control 52 Hit Dice worth of undead with animate dead.

So, for a five level dip, you gain 8 levels worth of undead HD. You lose one caster level for entering the prestige class, but if you want even more minions then its worth it.

You also gain Negative Energy Conduit which removes the need for the Voidstick.

Quote:

Negative Energy Conduit (Ex)

At 3rd level, an Agent of the Grave bolsters undead around him. As a standard action, an Agent of the Grave manifests an aura identical to the desecrate spell, except this foul aura has a duration of 10 minutes per level. An Agent of the Grave can use this ability once per day. In addition, any undead the Agent of the Grave creates is treated as having been created within the area of a desecrate spell.

Items

Lesser Metamagic Rod: Extend. Use these to increase Command Undead's (the spell) duration.

Flawed Orange Prism

Traits

Gifted Adept. Increase animate dead's CL.

Drawbacks

Lack of Channel Negative Energy to heal your minions. I'm sure there are ways to get this, such as variant multiclassing into cleric, but I don't know of any good ones off the top of my head.

Total Number of Controlled Undead

At level 20, I think you can control 160 HD of undead with animate undead and Command Undead (feat) using this build. That number doesn't include the command undead spell.


This is a general reminder of things I always say in these threads, but abilities like Command Undead (the feat) or 6/HD Animate Dead to control undead are pointless. Command Undead (the spell) is a 2nd level spell that will let you easily control several hundred HD of undead if you want. And once you have over 200 HD of undead under your control under control, another 7 or 8 don't really matter. A break down follows below:

Command Undead (the spell)
+ No Hit Dice cap
+ No save
+ Lets you control an undead for X/days with one cast.

- Requires one of your 2nd level spells (but only every X/days).
- Requires CHA check to convince Intelligent undead to follow orders.

Command Undead (the feat)
+ Can be used 3+CHA times per day (Necromancer Wizards win very hard here at 3+INT uses per day).
+ Any number of undead in range (but only up to your level in HD).

- Capped at your level in HD regardless of uses remaining.
- Grants even unintelligent undead a Will Save.
- Intelligent Undead get a new will save each morning.

I'd say being able to control enemy undead (which tend to have high HD for their CR) is a key factor here. Not to mention 1 2nd level spell per X days is not a high upkeep on a potentially much higher HD undead. And lets not forget a lesser metamagic rod of extend can double the duration of Command Undead (the spell).

There are some niche cases where Command Undead (the feat) is superior, like controlling intelligent undead, but its not enough for me personally to support it's viability.

The most valuable spells for a necromancer to have are:

1. Animate Dead - If you can't do this you don't count as a necromancer in my book.

2. Command Undead - If you can't order a 20+ HD mindless undead around with no save using a 2nd level spell slot you're not very good at controlling undead.

3. Blood Money - Not inherently important to being a necromancer, but extremely important if you want to Animate Dead both on the fly and on the cheap.

4. Desecrate - But not really. Or rather any character can get a desecrate effect by picking up a voidstick for 2,500 gp.

As to a class for controlling an army of undead:

Gravewalker Witch is my personal pick.

Main reasons:

1. Can control undead from level 1. Bonewhistle can be used repeatedly on the same targets. Bonewhistle also solves a Witch weakness by giving you a repeated SoL v. Undead.

2. Gravewalker gives you the three most important spells for animating minions at their lowest level - Blood Money at level 1, Command Undead as a level 2 spell and Animate Dead as a level 3 spell. Admittedly you will have to wait til 6 to start animating.

3. The other important Necromancy spell Desecrate can be replicated by a Voidstick for only 2,500 GP.

4. You can eventually get to use magic jar on your undead all day long.

So ya, Gravewalker Witch.


1) I would argue a wizard+cleric theurge using early entry tricks is the best necromancer. They can control the most undead possible, have plenty of spell slots to leave animate dead spells, and have full access to both arcane and divine necro spells

3) Yes in accordance with Rule 0

4) By RAW you can have as many templates on a creature as you want. Your spell however has to be able to create the creature with all the templates it gains on being animated. Not entirely sure on the RAW, but I've never played at a table where making undead from a destroyed undead was allowed

5) They have evil descriptor. Many seem to believe this makes it by RAW evil. I disagree based on personal alignment interpretation. While most necromancers are evil, white necromancy is certainly possible just considering base alignment descriptions. Also Aligned spells are pretty weird and have several wacky edge cases in which the RAW descriptor makes little to no sense

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