Last minute DMing help - CR and encounters


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Okay it's like 4am as I am typing this and I'm putting the finishing touches on some encounters for my game in like....10 hours or so give or take and I'm a little concerned that I've made the encounters too hard. Normally I just wing it when it comes to encounters but I'm trying to do things correctly (figure if I learn how to do things the right way then I know what I can get away with).

So here's the thing: I'm going off the notion that a CR5 encounter is a good boss fight for the session, and breaking that down to a 1600xp max. The method for encounters I have is as follows:

1) Easy - Arachnid Robots (CR 1/2) x2 (400xp)
2) Easy - Wolves (CR 1) x2 (800xp)
3) Medium - Burglar (CR 2) x2 (1200xp)
4) Easy - Clockwork Spy (CR 1/2) + lvl 1 Skinwalker Ranger (CR 1/2) x2 (800xp)
5) Hard - lvl 1 Skinwalker Ranger (CR 1/2) x4 + lvl 3 Skinwalker Rogue (CR 3) (1600xp)

The party is level 1 currently and will have some time between encounters to sell off loot and re-kit up and rest between fights. The party consists of a Witch, a Swashbuckler, a Guru (Akashic Mysteries), and a Warden (Path of War).

I'm just worried that I might be throwing too much at the party and that I'm making things too hard for them and some feedback would be appreciated.


Why would you think four level 1 characters would be able to beat four level 1 characters and a level 3 character? Are your group super-optimized / high points buy?

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Why would you think four level 1 characters would be able to beat four level 1 characters and a level 3 character? Are your group super-optimized / high points buy?

Not really super optimized, though I know the Guru, Warden, and Witch are pretty solidly built. The Warden rolled REALLY well on stats and is built like a tank, and the Witch is a homebrewed Tiny race we're testing out that will probably be getting cover bonuses from riding on the Warden's shoulders and dropping CC and debuffs on the enemy.

Seeing as it's the last encounter I have planned it's possible that I'll take off one or two of the lvl 1's.

Again this is really the first time I've tried to do encounters based off XP and CR. The idea was the lvl 3 is worth 800xp on his own. Tack on the four CR 1/2 lvl 1's (at 200 xp a piece) and that brings it up to 1600xp for the encounter.


It's hard to judge what's really likely to happen in a battle like that. Does the witch have a powerful Slumber hex? How many actions would it take one of those Rangers to take down a PC? Are the enemies going to be scattered or attacking all at once?

XP value for NPCs is more art than science. If the NPC are as powerful as a PC of the same level would be, you have to increase the CR a step - which means four level 1s and one level 3 would be CR 6. Typically, NPCs are weaker or poorly equipped, but I don't know if that's the case here.


Generally, a CR1 encounter is supposed to be an appropriate challenge for 4 lvl 1 characters.
They should be able to defeat a CR 3-4, but maybe the last encounter seems a bit tough.

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:

It's hard to judge what's really likely to happen in a battle like that. Does the witch have a powerful Slumber hex? How many actions would it take one of those Rangers to take down a PC? Are the enemies going to be scattered or attacking all at once?

XP value for NPCs is more art than science. If the NPC are as powerful as a PC of the same level would be, you have to increase the CR a step - which means four level 1s and one level 3 would be CR 6. Typically, NPCs are weaker or poorly equipped, but I don't know if that's the case here.

The plan for the session is the PCs are sent off to a northern city to retrieve an archaeological find (Skymetal samples and research notes dug out from an old research complex). The last two encounters are a third party trying to get the find from the PCs. The last encounter likely is going to happen at a train station and, depending on how the PCs choose to proceed, could end with there not being a fight at all (i.e. selling the find to the third party or brokering a deal). If they were to attack they would either attack from one direction or, depending on how the PCs opt to proceed given the first (encounter 4) attack, they might try to hit them from several directions.

The lvl 1's only have longbows (which I'll probably scrap in enxchange for coin) and a pair of 1d4+3 claw attacks. I'm pretty sure the Witch has a good Slumber Hex and is rocking Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Ray of Sickening (along with some other spells).

I actually got finished mocking up the lvl 3 NPC (The lvl 1's I'm using I grabbed from the SRD here). The prelim lvl 3 stats can be found here. I built it using the Paizo NPC creation guidelines so it SHOULD be right.

Edit: I'll probably drop it down to a pair of lvl 1's and a lvl 3...

Liberty's Edge

Wait going by the Burgler sheet, the lvl 3 Skinwalker Rogue would technically be a CR 2, making the encounter a CR...4?

Unless I dun goofed again :/


As I read it was a CR 3 I thought you were giving him higher stats and gear to make him a CR3 at lvl3. If he's a CR2 it could be done.

Liberty's Edge

Kileanna wrote:
As I read it was a CR 3 I thought you were giving him higher stats and gear to make him a CR3 at lvl3. If he's a CR2 it could be done.

Aye, I went back and switched up the CR. Again, first time tinkering with CR. I forgot that NPCs with PC class levels are essentially "class level -1" for calculating CR. Or so I've read. So since he's a lvl 3 rogue it SHOULD make him a CR 2.


If I am right that's correct.


Going by the guidelines APL + 3 is an epic encounter, which would be CR 4 for a level 1 party. I would hesitate to throw a CR 5 encounter at them unless I was very confident in their abilities.


The only fight to really present a challenge to the party is the last one with the four rangers and their boss. In every other encounter, the party outnumbers the enemy and (presumably) outclasses them too.

Your last fight can swing wildly depending on the following:
Is the party rested and prepared for the final fight?
Are the rangers built for melee or ranged?
Will they get favored enemy bonuses against the party?
Will the boss rogue get opportunities to apply sneak attack?

The last one is really critical, as any 1st level PC is going down to a sneak attack from a level 3 rogue.

If you want to make the fight tense, loudly mention how the enemies are "clearly" trying to help their boss to get a deadly strike in. Give the party opportunities to tactically prevent the big bad from gaining flank, and only punish them if they are terribly inept or don't care about the clear warning.

I assume the four rangers are each outclassed by the PCs, so the boss is the factor that evens things out and makes the fight deadly, depending on whether he gets to use his sneak attack to effect. Lastly, if the party has tricks to keep the boss out of the fight, such as a sleep hex, then it will be an easier fight than you think for them.


Paul Migaj wrote:
The only fight to really present a challenge to the party is the last one with the four rangers and their boss. In every other encounter, the party outnumbers the enemy and (presumably) outclasses them too.

This is probably the case if the players know what they're doing, but note that two CR 2 burglars is rated 'epic' for a level 1 party. They can sneak attack for +2d6 damage, so if the two of them can flank a PC he won't last long.


I see it balanced. It could be an easy fight or a TPK depending of how clever both the GM and the players play it.


I strongly suggest reading this guide.


I know it and it definitely gives great advice not only to make encounters balanced but interesting and fun to play.


Silus wrote:
I forgot that NPCs with PC class levels are essentially "class level -1" for calculating CR.

An NPC with PC class levels and PC health is "Class Level = CR."

An NPC with PC class levels but NPC wealth (much less) is "Class Level - 1 = CR."


GM Rednal wrote:
I strongly suggest reading this guide.

You know, I really like that guide right up until example given at the end.

It suggests taking the deadliest encounter in an adventure (hard to attack, could basically kill a PC every round if the GM plays it competently, and it wiped out half my group even using the as-written suboptimal tactics) and making it harder.

It suggests taking an undead caster and giving him the Young template which is CR -1 - but in this case, since the enemy doesn't rely on physical stats, actually makes it harder. "This means you freed up 800 XP." Why would I need to do that if I wanted to add minions? Is this just an excuse to create an encounter that's as dangerous as a CR 8 but not give the PCs any more XP?


As in all guides, you have to be critic with what you read and adapt it for your gaming experience. I still haven't found a perfect guide for anything.
I found this one to have interesting points, though.

Liberty's Edge

Okay so I don't have a lot of time to sort out toning down the encounters overmuch. Thoughts on just dropping a die of Sneak Attack from the Burglers and the lvl 3 Rogue from +2d6 down to +1d6?

Also @Balkoth, started the lvl 3 with ~750g worth of kit which I understand is quite lower than the PC standard. Literally no liberties were taken with making the lvl 3.


To give you some maths that may help:
The dead average damage for a sneak attack with a short sword is 10.5, before any bonuses from strength or other sources. That is enough to take a level 1 PC from full health to unconsciousness in one hit the majority of the time.

The encounter with two burglars is your chance to really make the party feel the danger of sneak attacks, as the bruglars can successfully knock one party member unconscious and still be badly outnumbered (and killed or chased off) by the rest of the group. The point of the encounter is to kind of teach/validate the tactical threat.

In the subsequent boss encounter, the problem is that you're combining the ability to one-shot players while they're already at a numbers disadvantage. This is why I think the threat of the boss using the sneak attack should be implied but not really used. Make the party afraid of it, make them sweat and worry about their positioning, but don't one shot them.

This isn't so much about the raw mechanics of the boss (2d6 vs 1d6 sneak attacks), but how you choose to use/play him. Remember, as DM your job isn't to play the bad guys to be effective, but instead fun and memorable.

At least that's my two cents on it.

Liberty's Edge

Paul Migaj wrote:

To give you some maths that may help:

The dead average damage for a sneak attack with a short sword is 10.5, before any bonuses from strength or other sources. That is enough to take a level 1 PC from full health to unconsciousness in one hit the majority of the time.

The encounter with two burglars is your chance to really make the party feel the danger of sneak attacks, as the bruglars can successfully knock one party member unconscious and still be badly outnumbered (and killed or chased off) by the rest of the group. The point of the encounter is to kind of teach/validate the tactical threat.

In the subsequent boss encounter, the problem is that you're combining the ability to one-shot players while they're already at a numbers disadvantage. This is why I think the threat of the boss using the sneak attack should be implied but not really used. Make the party afraid of it, make them sweat and worry about their positioning, but don't one shot them.

This isn't so much about the raw mechanics of the boss (2d6 vs 1d6 sneak attacks), but how you choose to use/play him. Remember, as DM your job isn't to play the bad guys to be effective, but instead fun and memorable.

At least that's my two cents on it.

So kinda....play intelligently, but sandbag if need be?

I'll see about using the previous combats to gauge where the players are and try to adjust accordingly.

Liberty's Edge

Well update after the session finished up (We didn't get to the last encounter due to time).

The party pretty much steamrolled through the encounters, with the wolves surprisingly giving them the most trouble, what with some max damage rolls and at least two successful trips on the Swashbuckler. Hell, the burglar encounter pretty much finished before it even began thanks to the Witch taking one of the two out with a Slumber Hex.

I don't really expect the last encounter with the lvl 3 to be much trouble. In fact I might have to look at beefing it up a tad to compensate for the Half-Giant Warden and his 2d6+1d6 Iaijitsu strike thing.


I usually make the encounters slightly more difficult for my party than they should be, as players that tend to get creative and play it clever usually find encounters easier.
What I tend to avoid is getting to heavy on save or die stuff unless it can be predicted and avoided as it can easily come out of control.

Liberty's Edge

Kileanna wrote:

I usually make the encounters slightly more difficult for my party than they should be, as players that tend to get creative and play it clever usually find encounters easier.

What I tend to avoid is getting to heavy on save or die stuff unless it can be predicted and avoided as it can easily come out of control.

I'm thinking this first mission is mostly to reintroduce some of the players to combat as it's been a good while since any of us have actually played some Pathfinder, and human enemies of the non-caster variety tend to not really have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.

The next mission is up in the air however as they'll get a lot of plot hooks just dangling about. Best case scenario they'll pick a profitable one that also lets me throw some more exotic creatures at them (plant monsters, undead stuffs, etc.).


If you want to make the encounter a bit tougher, I'd toss in some tactical terrain advantage for the bad guys.
Bow using bad guys at the top of the stairs on the far side of the room can be a simple example. Have the rogue hiding somewhere and jumping out to attack the parties casters after all the melee run past him (comes into play the 2nd round).

Doing this could go terribly run, depending on rolls and how "buff" the party is.


The environment specially at low levels can turn an easy encounter to a TPK. Cover, fog, difficult terrain, darkness, narrow spaces, etc. are something to plan around when designing encounters.
I still remember my first levels in RoW with my Witch... *shudders*

Liberty's Edge

Hmm...Well the lvl 1 NPCs do have longbows so I figure I could switch up the encounter I had in mind. Basically it was going to be the lvl 3 offering to cut a deal with the PCs for the item they were retrieving. Refusal would result in a fight.

Though I think 4 Skinwalker Rangers with longbows on overwatch on the party while the lvl 3 does the talking MIGHT tip the hand of the party to accepting the deal.


I always think there should be some encounters PCs should not win (unless they get very lucky).
I've seen some PC groups that think they can bad mouth NPC becouse they believe they're protected by plot armor. Toss in a encounter or two that should clobber the PC but have a reason not to kill them hopefully teaches them a lesson or two.

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