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Bluenose wrote: No, just curiosity about the sort of power scale you wanted Starfinder characters to operate at. Shounen anime, videogames, and I'd add superheroes and Space Marine Primarchs to that. It's not a question of what power level I personally want Starfinder to function at. This is my response to a game decision made for Starfinder if it's supposed to function at the same level of power as Pathfinder, and I presented some examples to show just how ridiculous that rules decision was. Like I said, if Starfinder wants to operate at a lower power and not Pathfinders, then I'm totally cool with that.
Sauce987654321 wrote: pnewman wrote: At GAMA the man running our demo said "One point of starship weapons damage = 100 points of personal damage (unless they changed since I turned in the manuscript)". So basically 10 points of damage would equal 1,000, then? If Starfinder is supposed to be some lower powered game compared to Pathfinder, then that's cool.
However, if high level Starfinder characters are supposed to be on the same high powered scale of Pathfinder characters, then I'm not really liking this decision. In the same game where high level characters have proven to have insane durability against even the most powerful attacks can just get effortlessly owned by any starship. I don't know, I guess many people still just don't get it, whether they were a developer for Pathfinder or not. Many people I guess just don't realize that a high level character's toughness was a feature of the game, not a flaw.
*high level character survives a mountain falling on him*
*high level character survives against a Colossal sized Gravity Cannon's blast*
*high level character survives against Godzilla's (Mogaru) atomic breath*
*high level character gets one shotted by the Millennium Falcon's turret blaster*
That's some solid consistency right there, huh?
Didn't the developers say that Golarion has vanished during the time of Starfinder? I know exactly why! Because Golarion was totally vaporized by the presence of the awesomely exaggerated power of a starship! They also said that the deities won't say what happened to Golarion, but that's because the gods are too fearful of high tech metal flying vehicles! It all makes sense now!
Bare in mind that I'm only saying this if Starfinder is intended to be a high powered game like Pathfinder. If it is, this is a silly rules decision that I have very limited to no respect for. Haven't you ever read a comic book with super powered characters? Most players don't get to the point where they are playing Epic level characters with 1000 hit points, it would take a long time, and there would be a lot of monsters to kill before you get to that level, though it is technically possible. I don't think the game should plateu, after all, the whole point is not to play a realistic game where you character can become a blood smear on the wall, there are a lot of other RPGs where that can happen a lot, and you get to roll up a new character, Pathfinder at high level is a game of superheroes, and superheroes often get into combat situations with spaceships, that is not unusual, just ask Superman!
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Lol, Tom, you make it sound like I'm all for starships killing high levels in one shot, when my post was the opposite. I'm going to check my post again to see if something went wrong.
In pretty much all the SF PnP RPGs I have played starship combat is a completly seperate rule system to personal combat, with some sort of cludge when they interact (which is assumed to be infrequent).
Taking the specific Rogue One scenario, it would seem more appropriate to treat the spaceborne weapon as a high level AoE spell like Meteor Storm. Exactly how many damage dice are applied is debatable, but I would say the key question would be "would Darth Vader (representing a high level character) have survived being on the recieving end?" I would say yes, but just barely.
Extending the Star Wars model, a Death Star would clearly represent a high level threat. Darth Vader would quite easily survive an attack from the Millenum Falcon, representing a typical PC ship.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: {. . .}
Haven't you ever read a comic book with super powered characters? Most players don't get to the point where they are playing Epic level characters with 1000 hit points, it would take a long time, and there would be a lot of monsters to kill before you get to that level, though it is technically possible. I don't think the game should plateu, after all, the whole point is not to play a realistic game where you character can become a blood smear on the wall, there are a lot of other RPGs where that can happen a lot, and you get to roll up a new character, Pathfinder at high level is a game of superheroes, and superheroes often get into combat situations with spaceships, that is not unusual, just ask Superman!
Now that you mention it, this is probably the way to go. PCs that get very high level in Starfinder eventually evolve into full-fledged superheroes. With this in mind, I'd like to see Starfinder adaptations of various Pathfinder classes for this end, especially Kineticist and Vigilante (maybe also Psychic), as well as Superhero-level developments of Starfinder originals such as the Solarian.
Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
Seems like what you're wanting is something similar to Palladium's Mega damage/MDC for starships and other vehicles. In PF/SF perhaps only Mythic characters should be able to hurt things with MDC.
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Sauce987654321 wrote: pnewman wrote: At GAMA the man running our demo said "One point of starship weapons damage = 100 points of personal damage (unless they changed since I turned in the manuscript)". So basically 10 points of damage would equal 1,000, then? If Starfinder is supposed to be some lower powered game compared to Pathfinder, then that's cool.
However, if high level Starfinder characters are supposed to be on the same high powered scale of Pathfinder characters, then I'm not really liking this decision. In the same game where high level characters have proven to have insane durability against even the most powerful attacks can just get effortlessly owned by any starship. I don't know, I guess many people still just don't get it, whether they were a developer for Pathfinder or not. Many people I guess just don't realize that a high level character's toughness was a feature of the game, not a flaw.
*high level character survives a mountain falling on him*
*high level character survives against a Colossal sized Gravity Cannon's blast*
*high level character survives against Godzilla's (Mogaru) atomic breath*
*high level character gets one shotted by the Millennium Falcon's turret blaster*
That's some solid consistency right there, huh?
Didn't the developers say that Golarion has vanished during the time of Starfinder? I know exactly why! Because Golarion was totally vaporized by the presence of the awesomely exaggerated power of a starship! They also said that the deities won't say what happened to Golarion, but that's because the gods are too fearful of high tech metal flying vehicles! It all makes sense now!
Bare in mind that I'm only saying this if Starfinder is intended to be a high powered game like Pathfinder. If it is, this is a silly rules decision that I have very limited to no respect for. Indeed! If someone is able to survive Mogaru's breath weapon, I'm sure they should be able to survive a spaceships' attack...
I'm not saying that all characters should be able to, but high level characters are not mere mortals. The Rune Lords and the likes of Jatembe and the Whispering Tyrant were all just mere mortals in their earlier days.
Bluenose wrote: I can find fantasy stories where powerful heroes fight and defeat dragons or other epic monsters and survive ridiculous amounts of punishment. This somewhat justifies fantasy characters getting really high hit point totals; the fictional sources support those capabilities.
So now you can present the examples of people fighting spaceships to justify why that should be possible.
This guy doing THIS is what I have in mind when I think about this subject.
Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist.
In one novel I ready, hit points beyond the first die and racial dice, were a form of magic. There is a free download here describing the World of Prime from the Sword of the Lady. Basically it is an adaption of 3.5 D20 rules.
Once part of the review got my attention:
Quote: There were other things that bothered me about Sword of the Bright Lady. For one thing, it really seemed to have a fondness for using elements of Japanese culture (katanas for instance) but the cast was entirely white. The book also wasn’t too great on gender, and I felt like I was never able to get a handle on what women’s role in the society was. I wasn’t thrilled that the inciting incident is Christopher rescuing a peasant girl from being raped by a nobleman – it felt like rape being used yet again as a cheap plot tool, this time to also make the male protagonist look good. I can explain the katana easily enough Christopher was from another world, where there is more of a mix of cultures than your standard medieval fair, I also find a "melting pot" medieval setting where its just a medieval America, to be a somewhat unrealistic expectation of a medieval society. In the Medieval World, Caucasians lived in one place, Asians and Africans in others, when somebody shows up who is not from the local village, he or she draws a lot of attention, especially if he or she looks different. Medieval people tend not to be very worldly or well travelled.
Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells.
Torbyne wrote: Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells. If this were represented in Pathfinder (which there sort of is is, I'll get to that) it would be some levitation type of effect of a Colossal object. An Aether Kineticist can use Aether Puppet at 18th level to animate colossal objects.
Sauce987654321 wrote: Torbyne wrote: Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells. If this were represented in Pathfinder (which there is, I'll get to that) it would be some levitation type of effect of a Colossal object. An Aether Kineticist can use Aether Puppet at 18th level to animate colossal objects. I dont think you will find many GMs who will let you willy nilly take control of an attended object that is over half a mile long and smash it into the ground... and what you are describing is a way to achieve the same result without using the same effect as Star Wars did, the force users were not animating an object, they were using telekinesis to exert several hundred thousand pounds of force onto an object. i am not good enough with mathematics to determine exactly how much energy was needed to get a 300,000+ pound spaceship to float in the air on its own but it was at least a strong enough force to propel the ship off planet and the force users here brute forced the ship down fast enough to destroy the ship.
Sauce987654321 wrote: Torbyne wrote: Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells. If this were represented in Pathfinder (which there sort of is is, I'll get to that) it would be some levitation type of effect of a Colossal object. An Aether Kineticist can use Aether Puppet at 18th level to animate colossal objects. You don't actually have to do it by brute force, you can use the force to manipulate the controls on the bridge of the Star Destroyer to cause it to crash. Darth Vader one time famously choked an Admiral from another starship while using the force, if he can do that, he could also pull a few switches and press a few buttons on he bridge to cause the ship to crash!
Tom Kalbfus wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: Torbyne wrote: Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells. If this were represented in Pathfinder (which there sort of is is, I'll get to that) it would be some levitation type of effect of a Colossal object. An Aether Kineticist can use Aether Puppet at 18th level to animate colossal objects. You don't actually have to do it by brute force, you can use the force to manipulate the controls on the bridge of the Star Destroyer to cause it to crash. Darth Vader one time famously choked an Admiral from another starship while using the force, if he can do that, he could also pull a few switches and press a few buttons on he bridge to cause the ship to crash! Yes but at least in Force Unleashed it was very clearly a brute force attack to suplex a star destroyer. Actually, as another point of interest for PC and spaceship scales, in the recent Darth Vader series, Vader uses the force on multiple occasions to bat aside missiles, up to and including a whole swarm of proton torpedoes. I believe Rebels has also shown lightsabers deflecting ship based blaster fire. Both of those scenarios are a little much for my tastes.
Torbyne wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: Torbyne wrote: Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells. If this were represented in Pathfinder (which there is, I'll get to that) it would be some levitation type of effect of a Colossal object. An Aether Kineticist can use Aether Puppet at 18th level to animate colossal objects. I dont think you will find many GMs who will let you willy nilly take control of an attended object that is over half a mile long and smash it into the ground... and what you are describing is a way to achieve the same result without using the same effect as Star Wars did, the force users were not animating an object, they were using telekinesis to exert several hundred thousand pounds of force onto an object. i am not good enough with mathematics to determine exactly how much energy was needed to get a 300,000+ pound spaceship to float in the air on its own but it was at least a strong enough force to propel the ship off planet and the force users here brute forced the ship down fast enough to destroy the ship. Okay, well there is no mention how far Aether Puppet reaches, so unless I find something about it I'm going to say it's line of sight, for now. The text doesn't mention anything whether the object is attended or not, and it doesn't matter if it's over a mile long or not, it's still a colossal object.
What's exactly so different about it, other than burning a point for the object to gain sentience? You move around the targeted object and that's it. There's also no exerting force when it comes to using telekinetic effects on creatures or objects, because the effect does what it says it does, no more or less.
If a GM doesn't want the player to do what I mentioned, fine, but just understand that it's a house rule, doing so.
Sauce987654321 wrote: Torbyne wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: Torbyne wrote: Fardragon wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
In the (now legends) Star Wars EU Luke Skywalker brings down a Star Destroyer with the Force. So it's not unthinkable. The strongest Superheroes (Superman, Hulk) could do it with a fist. Interesting, do you remember what that was in or what year they did it? The same thing was done by Starkiller in the Force Unleashed video games and a lot of people were upset about the portrayal of the force as being so overtly powerful. To be fair, if you can pull a 1600M long space battleship out of the sky with the force what is the lightsaber really doing for you anymore? Just crush everything with gravity wells. If this were represented in Pathfinder (which there is, I'll get to that) it would be some levitation type of effect of a Colossal object. An Aether Kineticist can use Aether Puppet at 18th level to animate colossal objects. I dont think you will find many GMs who will let you willy nilly take control of an attended object that is over half a mile long and smash it into the ground... and what you are describing is a way to achieve the same result without using the same effect as Star Wars did, the force users were not animating an object, they were using telekinesis to exert several hundred thousand pounds of force onto an object. i am not good enough with mathematics to determine exactly how much energy was needed to get a 300,000+ pound spaceship to float in the air on its own but it was at least a strong enough force to propel the ship off planet and the force users here brute forced the ship down fast enough to destroy the ship. Okay, well there is no mention how far Aether Puppet reaches, so unless I find something about it I'm going to say it's line of sight, for now. The text doesn't mention... So what motivation did Luke have to engage Darth Vader in a light saber duel, why not just destroy his Tie Fighter with him in it?
This leads to another question: How many hit points per round does a character lose when exposed to the vacuum of space? How does space kill you?
Sauce987654321,
You are right about the rules but your argument to me is the same as saying that a castle or even mountain is just a colossal object and you could animate either of those just as well. in fact some castles and mountains would have smaller volumes than a star destroyer. So yes, the rules say you can, however many GMs will balk at you simply animating the BBEG's fortress and walking it into the ocean instead of navigating through the dungeon and actually fighting the BBEG.
Telekinesis usually has a limit of X pounds/level on what you can affect, i have interpreted that as the amount of force a telekinetic effect can express. There are no telekinetic effects i can think of that let you move around over 40 million tons (i looked up the ship and even then cant say if that includes the weight of all its embarked ships and crew)
So while your argument about rules is solid, this is a cooperative story based game and doing such disturbing things to the narrative will always fall under rule 0. My other comments were more about how Star Wars has such an unbalanced interpretation of what the force is and does and i was going for a point about how that is not the best comparison in so far as PC scale effects on spaceships.
Tom Kalbfus,
Pathfinder has rules for exposure to space sparsely laid out in a few places, my go to however is based on a Sorcerer bloodline power, "Breaching the Gulf (Sp): At 15th level, your caster level is increased by 3 when casting spells of the teleportation subschool. In addition, once per day you can teleport a single creature within 30 feet into the void of space if it fails a Will save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The target can attempt a new saving throw as a full-round action each round to return. While trapped in the airless void, the target suffers 6d6 points of cold damage per round and must hold its breath or begin to suffocate."
So 6D6 per round as Cold plus suffocation just as if underwater.
Additionally, under Hazards there are these points:
- No Gravity (×0): Without magical flight, moving in an area with no gravity is difficult. A character with a surface to push off from can move up to half speed in any direction. A double move or charge can be performed this way, but not a run. A character can move at his full climb speed or his full land speed by succeeding at a DC 20 Climb check as long as he remains adjacent to a surface with sufficient handholds. He adds his Dexterity modifier (minimum 0) on this Climb check in addition to his Strength modifier. Once a character starts moving, he continues moving at the same speed in the same direction each round without using an action until he latches onto an object to stop himself, pushes off in another direction, or creates thrust somehow (each of which requires a move action). Creatures with nonmagical means of flight lose the ability to fly for 2d6 rounds after entering a no gravity area. A character in a no gravity environment can lift and carry 10 times his normal limit. Ranged weapons have no maximum range, and their range increment distances are multiplied by 10.
- Vacuum presents particular difficulties to spellcasters. Vacuum uses the same rules as underwater, except instead of creating steam, fire effects last long enough to deal damage instantaneously before dissipating. Airless environments require Silent Spell or other forms of voiceless spellcasting. Spellcasters can also have trouble timing their preparation of spells; a traveler’s pocket watch, or an orrery combined with a sextant, can be used to determine time.
- Radiation is a common hazard when exploring outer space. (i would rule any exposure to space includes at least low radiation)
Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
A different, but related, question: Should a great wyrm gold dragon be able to defeat a one-man fighter? [On average, a great wyrm gold dragon has fewer than 500 hit points, and its breath weapon does less than 300 damage.]
Distant Scholar wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
A different, but related, question: Should a great wyrm gold dragon be able to defeat a one-man fighter? [On average, a great wyrm gold dragon has fewer than 500 hit points, and its breath weapon does less than 300 damage.] One part of me doesnt want dragons to become obsolete but another one is thinking that if dragons are still just dragons as we know them and everyone else has spent several thousand years advancing than, yes, the advanced civilizations could very well have eclipsed what dragons can do with their raw might and innate magic.
Torbyne wrote: Tom Kalbfus,
Pathfinder has rules for exposure to space sparsely laid out in a few places, my go to however is based on a Sorcerer bloodline power, "Breaching the Gulf (Sp): At 15th level, your caster level is increased by 3 when casting spells of the teleportation subschool. In addition, once per day you can teleport a single creature within 30 feet into the void of space if it fails a Will save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The target can attempt a new saving throw as a full-round action each round to return. While trapped in the airless void, the target suffers 6d6 points of cold damage per round and must hold its breath or begin to suffocate."
So 6D6 per round as Cold plus suffocation just as if underwater.
Additionally, under Hazards there are these points:
- No Gravity (×0): Without magical flight, moving in an area with no gravity is difficult. A character with a surface to push off from can move up to half speed in any direction. A double move or charge can be performed this way, but not a run. A character can move at his full climb speed or his full land speed by succeeding at a DC 20 Climb check as long as he remains adjacent to a surface with sufficient handholds. He adds his Dexterity modifier (minimum 0) on this Climb check in addition to his Strength modifier. Once a character starts moving, he continues moving at the same speed in the same direction each round without using an action until he latches onto an object to stop himself, pushes off in another direction, or creates thrust somehow (each of which requires a move action). Creatures with nonmagical means of flight lose the ability to fly for 2d6 rounds after entering a no gravity area. A character in a no gravity environment can lift and carry 10 times his normal limit. Ranged weapons have no maximum range, and their range increment distances are multiplied by 10.
- Vacuum presents particular difficulties to spellcasters. Vacuum uses the same rules as underwater, except...
What if you cast a spell while wearing a spacesuit? Sound carries within your spacesuit, so that should be enough to satisfy the verbal components of your spell. Anyway if you are in space without a spacesuit, your going to be dying anyway, you will be suffering from decompression, you will get the bends as nitrogen bubbles expand within your blood vessels, very painful, I'm not sure one can maintain the concentration to cast a spell under those circumstances, even if one casts a silent spell. If you have a magical effect which duplicates the effect of a spacesuit, then one ought to be able to cast a spell with verbal components within that. Its good to have a few magic items if you are caught outside an airlock without a spacesuit.
Torbyne wrote: Distant Scholar wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
A different, but related, question: Should a great wyrm gold dragon be able to defeat a one-man fighter? [On average, a great wyrm gold dragon has fewer than 500 hit points, and its breath weapon does less than 300 damage.] One part of me doesnt want dragons to become obsolete but another one is thinking that if dragons are still just dragons as we know them and everyone else has spent several thousand years advancing than, yes, the advanced civilizations could very well have eclipsed what dragons can do with their raw might and innate magic. Dragons are intelligent creatures, they have fore legs with claws that can be used to manipulate tools, who's to say a dragon cannot travel in spaceships designed to carry them?
There may be specifically "starship scale" monsters, including giant vaccuum breathing dragons, along with the obligtory space-whales and life draining planet sized ameoba.
Regular sized dragons would probably find polymorphing into something smaller advantageous for space travel.
6d6 cold damage from hard vacuum seems a little much.
Torbyne wrote: Distant Scholar wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
A different, but related, question: Should a great wyrm gold dragon be able to defeat a one-man fighter? [On average, a great wyrm gold dragon has fewer than 500 hit points, and its breath weapon does less than 300 damage.] One part of me doesnt want dragons to become obsolete but another one is thinking that if dragons are still just dragons as we know them and everyone else has spent several thousand years advancing than, yes, the advanced civilizations could very well have eclipsed what dragons can do with their raw might and innate magic. Well, dragons are long lived megafauna. They likely don't evolve quickly. So while their tactics will have changed I doubt their physiology has.
Fardragon wrote: There may be specifically "starship scale" monsters, including giant vaccuum breathing dragons, along with the obligtory space-whales and life draining planet sized ameoba.
Regular sized dragons would probably find polymorphing into something smaller advantageous for space travel.
Oma and Outer Dragons are the monsters you're thinking of.
Matthew Shelton wrote: 6d6 cold damage from hard vacuum seems a little much. I could have sworn i saw a Pathfinder rule somewhere for exposure to space being 3D6 cold and 3D6 fire if in direct sunlight plus suffocation... i dont remember ever seeing rules to simulate decompression but why not tack on another 3D6 bludgeoning for that? Give the average commoner 10 HP and no resistances and all of a sudden space is 9D6 every round which is... not good for the commoner.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: Torbyne wrote: Distant Scholar wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Is there a point where a higher level unarmed fighter can punch a lower level capital ship so hard that it explodes?
Edit: Should there be such a point?
A different, but related, question: Should a great wyrm gold dragon be able to defeat a one-man fighter? [On average, a great wyrm gold dragon has fewer than 500 hit points, and its breath weapon does less than 300 damage.] One part of me doesnt want dragons to become obsolete but another one is thinking that if dragons are still just dragons as we know them and everyone else has spent several thousand years advancing than, yes, the advanced civilizations could very well have eclipsed what dragons can do with their raw might and innate magic. Dragons are intelligent creatures, they have fore legs with claws that can be used to manipulate tools, who's to say a dragon cannot travel in spaceships designed to carry them? True and Rifts has used that idea before as well as who knows how many other works but in the situation posited above it was a Great Wyrm as we know them in Pathfinder using its pathfinder era breath weapon against a spaceship developed by a civilization with thousands of years of knowing of as well as researching and developing military technology along side the existence of such breath weapons. So it does make some sense to me that the space ship is equipped to handle the dragon.
Now if the dragons caught on to what was being developed then it could become a very amusing arms race with the relatively few but hyper intelligent dragons developing augments and ships of their own against the massive numbers of researchers and scientists that the mortal races would start producing. i am inclined to believe that the larger numbers of computer and AI assisted mortals could out develop dragon-tech and the lower resource costs of making a mortal scale ship compared to a dragon scaled ship would let them have larger fleets which would still give them the edge but this is all far removed from the original hypothetical.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: What if you cast a spell while wearing a spacesuit? Sound carries within your spacesuit, so that should be enough to satisfy the verbal components of your spell. Anyway if you are in space without a spacesuit, your going to be dying anyway, you will be suffering from decompression, you will get the bends as nitrogen bubbles expand within your blood vessels, very painful, I'm not sure one can maintain the concentration to cast a spell under those circumstances, even if one casts a silent spell. If you have a magical effect which duplicates the effect of a spacesuit, then one ought to be able to cast a spell with verbal components within that. Its good to have a few magic items if you are caught outside an airlock without a spacesuit. Verbal components are fine in a space suit though the suit would likely have a huge spell failure rate for somatic components.
I mentioned before that maybe taking on some decompression damage would be appropriate but i dont think Pathfinder models those rules since space exploration is a little far from the expectations of the game. Starfinder will likely have a lot more on space exposure in its hazards section.
As for concentration while in hard vacuum, i would say its 10+spell level+ damage taken from cold, fire, decompression+ 10 for the difficult situation itself, so likely somewhere in the 30s for most PCs.
But there is also the necklace of adaptation fairly cheap that at least allows you to breath normally. more properly Planetary Adaptation is a spell that, "grants you immunity to the harmful environmental effects" and, "The cold void of space is considered a single world for the purpose of this spell, allowing you to survive in vacuum" so while it doesnt specify what exactly space entails it does seem to protect you from what ever decompression, cold, heat, radiation etc that you may be exposed to.
Torbyne wrote: Matthew Shelton wrote: 6d6 cold damage from hard vacuum seems a little much. I could have sworn i saw a Pathfinder rule somewhere for exposure to space being 3D6 cold and 3D6 fire if in direct sunlight plus suffocation... i dont remember ever seeing rules to simulate decompression but why not tack on another 3D6 bludgeoning for that? Give the average commoner 10 HP and no resistances and all of a sudden space is 9D6 every round which is... not good for the commoner. Which is comically out of line with how reality actually works. In reality, someone exposed to space loses consciousness at 10 seconds (say 2 rounds) and can probably be revived so long as they are put back in air within about 90 seconds (15 rounds). Outside of that, they are probably goners.
This is probably reasonable from a gameplay perspective, too. Characters have a small window to save themselves during their period of consciousness, and the rest of the party has a decent shot at reaching them before they expire, but space is still lethal enough to be scary.
See this for an overview.
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I feel like this Dragon discussion whether they developed their own tech should be a grey area for the GM to decide in their campaign. Great Wyrm dragons aren't just giant monsters with a breath weapon that happen to be intelligent. Many of them are ninth level spellcasters, and something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon could easily have powers like Miracle and Wish. The GM could easily have it use Wish to create a gigantic space ship out of nothing and it'll be well with in RAW, if the Gold Dragon needed it (which it probably doesn't).
Sauce987654321 wrote: I feel like this Dragon discussion whether they developed their own tech should be a grey area for the GM to decide in their campaign. Great Wyrm dragons aren't just giant monsters with a breath weapon that happen to be intelligent. Many of them are ninth level spellcasters, and something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon could easily have powers like Miracle and Wish. The GM could easily have it use Wish to create a gigantic space ship out of nothing and it'll be well with in RAW, if the Gold Dragon needed it (which it probably doesn't). Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder.
Sauce987654321 wrote: Fardragon wrote: There may be specifically "starship scale" monsters, including giant vaccuum breathing dragons, along with the obligtory space-whales and life draining planet sized ameoba.
Regular sized dragons would probably find polymorphing into something smaller advantageous for space travel.
Oma and Outer Dragons are the monsters you're thinking of.
I was thinking more of creatures being described using starship stat blocks instead of creature stat blocks.
I did that when GMing a Star Wars (d6) game with a creature around a km across. (With 10km tentacles).
Umbral Reaver wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: I feel like this Dragon discussion whether they developed their own tech should be a grey area for the GM to decide in their campaign. Great Wyrm dragons aren't just giant monsters with a breath weapon that happen to be intelligent. Many of them are ninth level spellcasters, and something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon could easily have powers like Miracle and Wish. The GM could easily have it use Wish to create a gigantic space ship out of nothing and it'll be well with in RAW, if the Gold Dragon needed it (which it probably doesn't). Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. When did that happen? Is that for everybody in Starfinder, or just PCs and normal NPCs?
For those interested, the Great Wyrm vs modern tech is featured in the Animie Gate. A Great Wyrm Red is awoken, and nothing short of a Demi God in the Fantasy world can stand up too it.... But Antitank missles sure even the odds.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: I feel like this Dragon discussion whether they developed their own tech should be a grey area for the GM to decide in their campaign. Great Wyrm dragons aren't just giant monsters with a breath weapon that happen to be intelligent. Many of them are ninth level spellcasters, and something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon could easily have powers like Miracle and Wish. The GM could easily have it use Wish to create a gigantic space ship out of nothing and it'll be well with in RAW, if the Gold Dragon needed it (which it probably doesn't). Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. When did that happen? Is that for everybody in Starfinder, or just PCs and normal NPCs?
Presumably everybody, since the core book will only have up to 6th.
This is late to the game but I finished writing up some expanded size categories which could be used to accommodate creatures and combat outside the normal range of Pathfinder categories.
Expanded Size Categories house rules
Dexion1619 wrote: For those interested, the Great Wyrm vs modern tech is featured in the Animie Gate. A Great Wyrm Red is awoken, and nothing short of a Demi God in the Fantasy world can stand up too it.... But Antitank missles sure even the odds. I'm not sure how you can look at that dragon and say it's the same creature in this statblock.
The dragon didn't have 9th level spells such as Time Stop, not nearly as intelligent, doesn't look colossal size, and doesn't possess any of the abilities they have like Melt Stone in a 60ft. radius. Even a top end missile launcher in the tech guide (the same book with vortex guns and plasma throwers) only do an average of 1 damage to the dragon that it could easily heal with Limited Wish. It could even use Anti Technology Field to nearly shut down all tech weapons. This Dragon is more akin to a Spinosaurus with a Half Dragon template, and I don't see it being more powerful than a Cetus from B5, which is a 1,200+ long dragon
Not even close to a Great Red Wyrm.
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Umbral Reaver wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: I feel like this Dragon discussion whether they developed their own tech should be a grey area for the GM to decide in their campaign. Great Wyrm dragons aren't just giant monsters with a breath weapon that happen to be intelligent. Many of them are ninth level spellcasters, and something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon could easily have powers like Miracle and Wish. The GM could easily have it use Wish to create a gigantic space ship out of nothing and it'll be well with in RAW, if the Gold Dragon needed it (which it probably doesn't). Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. If you're able to convert monsters from Pathfinder to Starfinder, then Great Wyrm Gold Dragons should still possess 9th level spells. If you limit it to 6th level spells then it's just not the same monster, anymore. Just because PC classes are limited to 6th level spells doesn't mean everything else mysteriously loses their high level spells if they convert over.
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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I think there is another reason besides the vast space involved for standard size categories not to be applicable -- the combatant ships in spaceship combat are not creatures. The bonuses and penalties to attack in standard combat are based on the fact that most combatants are creatures who are most accustomed to dealing with other creatures of their own size, so a larger creature attacking a smaller creature is penalized by his own larger size as well as the smaller size of his foe.
But why would that apply to spacecraft? While a smaller spacecraft could benefit from having a smaller cross section (and that AC bonus could be built into the spaceship construction rules), the aiming of spaceship weapons would be controlled by factors that have nothing to do with the size of the spaceship (or even of its crewmembers). So I would not be at all surprised if spaceship stat blocks lack a meaningful size stat.
Sauce987654321 wrote: Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. If you're able to convert monsters from Pathfinder to Starfinder, then Great Wyrm Gold Dragons should still possess 9th level spells. If you limit it to 6th level spells then it's just not the same monster, anymore. Just because PC classes are limited to 6th level spells doesn't mean everything else mysteriously loses their high level spells if they convert over. Arcane, Divine, and Psychic spells should still have 9 levels wherever they appear. Starfinder spells don't have any of those things, and so caster classes in Starfinder aren't guaranteed higher han 6th level magic. If a Solarian or Mystic went back in time to Ancient Golarion somehow, they'd still be stuck with 6th level spells and definitely wouldn't be able to timeshift back to Starfinder era with old timey 9th level spells at their disposal. Their classes just aren't built for that kind of emphasis on magic over all the other things they have to learn.
Umbral Reaver wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: I feel like this Dragon discussion whether they developed their own tech should be a grey area for the GM to decide in their campaign. Great Wyrm dragons aren't just giant monsters with a breath weapon that happen to be intelligent. Many of them are ninth level spellcasters, and something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon could easily have powers like Miracle and Wish. The GM could easily have it use Wish to create a gigantic space ship out of nothing and it'll be well with in RAW, if the Gold Dragon needed it (which it probably doesn't). Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. When did that happen? Is that for everybody in Starfinder, or just PCs and normal NPCs?
Presumably everybody, since the core book will only have up to 6th. Okay, I get it. It could be (although at this point this is pure speculation) that 7th through 9th level spells will be introduced in a future (as yet not announced) Starfinder supplement, but not covered in the Core Rulebook.
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Matthew Shelton wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. If you're able to convert monsters from Pathfinder to Starfinder, then Great Wyrm Gold Dragons should still possess 9th level spells. If you limit it to 6th level spells then it's just not the same monster, anymore. Just because PC classes are limited to 6th level spells doesn't mean everything else mysteriously loses their high level spells if they convert over. Arcane, Divine, and Psychic spells should still have 9 levels wherever they appear. Starfinder spells don't have any of those things, and so caster classes in Starfinder aren't guaranteed higher han 6th level magic. If a Solarian or Mystic went back in time to Ancient Golarion somehow, they'd still be stuck with 6th level spells and definitely wouldn't be able to timeshift back to Starfinder era with old timey 9th level spells at their disposal. Their classes just aren't built for that kind of emphasis on magic over all the other things they have to learn. Would this give primitive planets with standard Pathfinder classes an advantage over high tech interlopers?
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
9th level spells certainly exist in Starfinder, and I'd imagine a great wyrm dragon would be fully capable of casting them. PC spellcasting classes cap out at level 6, but that isn't a hard limit to spells in the game/setting. I believe it was confirmed that the core rulebook will contain miracle/wish, even though PCs would not be able to cast it under normal circumstances.
A wish can duplicate the effects of any other spell 9th level or lower, so all you really need are wishes. You can open up your Pathfinder Core Rulebook and state that you wish for the effects of that particular spell, Meteor swarm for instance! Or you can wish for a scroll to appear before you with a spell on it, you then take the scroll with you, and you cast the spell from the scroll whenever you need to using the Read Magic spell if you have to.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: A wish can duplicate the effects of any other spell 9th level or lower, so all you really need are wishes. You can open up your Pathfinder Core Rulebook and state that you wish for the effects of that particular spell, Meteor swarm for instance! Or you can wish for a scroll to appear before you with a spell on it, you then take the scroll with you, and you cast the spell from the scroll whenever you need to using the Read Magic spell if you have to. Starfinder is not Pathfinder. They are different games.
It is no more obvious that you can use a Starfinder wish to duplicate a Pathfinder spell than a spell out of Call of Cthulhu or Mage.
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Tom Kalbfus wrote: Matthew Shelton wrote: Sauce987654321 wrote: Remember that spells only go up to 6th level in Starfinder. If you're able to convert monsters from Pathfinder to Starfinder, then Great Wyrm Gold Dragons should still possess 9th level spells. If you limit it to 6th level spells then it's just not the same monster, anymore. Just because PC classes are limited to 6th level spells doesn't mean everything else mysteriously loses their high level spells if they convert over. Arcane, Divine, and Psychic spells should still have 9 levels wherever they appear. Starfinder spells don't have any of those things, and so caster classes in Starfinder aren't guaranteed higher han 6th level magic. If a Solarian or Mystic went back in time to Ancient Golarion somehow, they'd still be stuck with 6th level spells and definitely wouldn't be able to timeshift back to Starfinder era with old timey 9th level spells at their disposal. Their classes just aren't built for that kind of emphasis on magic over all the other things they have to learn. Would this give primitive planets with standard Pathfinder classes an advantage over high tech interlopers? I had thought the restriction to 6th level casting in Starfinder in setting justification was that you theoretically could specilize in being an old school wizard but it is a harder, slower path that doesnt pay off as well since so much that used to be magic is now done easier through tech or tech assisted magic.
On a primitive world the high level wizards would be very uncommon and even if you found them is a 10th level wizard really that much more capable in combat than a 10th level magus, investigator, alchemist or inquisitor? 2/3 caster chassis have proven to be extremely powerful in Pathfinder and pushing to make them more common in Starfinder makes me think that is the kind of capability expectation we should have for all classes.
How about an 18th level wizard on a primitive planet?
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