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Multiattack and animal companions


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.

Does a horse have two natural attacks (bit, hoof) or three natural attacks (1 bite, 2 hoofs)? Also, are the hoof attacks considered secondary if the animal companion is trained for combat, or are they considered primary, like normal combat-trained horses?

I don't know if I should give my mount an extra attack at -5, or if its hooves should be hitting at -0, -2, or -5.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe the horse AC would get hoof attacks at -2 when it gets the feat. AniComs don't refer to the normal statblock animals to determine things about them.


Quote:
Does a horse have two natural attacks (bit, hoof) or three natural attacks (1 bite, 2 hoofs)? Also, are the hoof attacks considered secondary if the animal companion is trained for combat, or are they considered primary, like normal combat-trained horses?

Relevant Rules (natural attacks will be parsed for illustration purposes)

Quote:
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
Quote:

Natural AttacksMost creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon).

These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.

Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

1. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.

2. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

3. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Natural Attack ... ... Attack Type
Hoof, Tentacle, Wing ... Secondary

1. The context of "attacks" almost always refers to 'attacks' rather than 'weapons'.

I am fairly confident that this means your horse has 3 attacks.

2. The Docile SQ of the base horse is what overrides this rule.
A standard wartrained mount uses this rule because it is not longer docile.

3. However, your AC no longer uses #2 because it now has more than one type of attack, forcing the hoofs to default back to secondary as per the table.

I hope this was helpful.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So he makes his hoof attacks at -2, and gains no extra attacks?


Correct


Ravingdork wrote:
So he makes his hoof attacks at -2, and gains no extra attacks?

Natural attacks are not iterative, that's limited to manufactured weapon where you can attack several times with the same.

When using natural attacks you're limited to one attack per "limb", unless an external source (ex, when Hasted) allows you to perform an extra attack with one of them.

In the bite/hooves scenario considering a heavy horse, you have three attacks, one with the bite (head) and one with each front hoof. You cannot "hit twice" with the same hoof (in case one of them was enchanted somehow), you must use a diferent hoof for each attack.

The bite is primary, and the hooves are secondary (by default), but, if your animal is eligible for the multiattack feat you'll land both hooves with a -2 instead of the default -5.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That makes sense from a strict RAW standpoint, but it still seems odd to me that it is such a big departure from normal horses.

Can someone provide me with a developer quote, FAQ entry, or even an officially published statblock that backs up that they are secondary attacks?


Archaiek summed up the rules quite nicely.

stat blocks:also at level 10-11 and 16

Horse hooves are secondary attacks normally.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks, dragonhunterq.

So it looks like normal combat trained horses are the exception to the rule, not the other way around.

Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.


So does Combat Trained make the hooves Primary? This is the only thing I'm confused on... because if a rule makes them considered Primary, having another type of natural attack wouldn't change that... like if a Tyrannosaurus gained 2 Claw attacks it's Bite would still add 2x STR.

Also, Evolve Companion feat if possible ;)
You could give your Horse *Pounce or give it razor hooves with *Bleed 1d6... or both.


I've been pondering for sometime what the combat trained trait does for a horse. Obviously it is not 100% clear. I think that if a horse is still considered docile, its hoof is treated as a secondary attack even If it makes only a single attack with a hoof. Normally the -5 for being a secondary attack with all the trigger on a full attack. Once combat trained it can make a single attack with a hoof without suffering the -5.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The easiest way to tell that a horse animal companions hoof attacks are secondary attacks, is to open the main book, go to the section on druid and look up the horse animal companion, where you will see:

Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6);

and the notation

*This is a secondary natural attack

The bestiary horse, while having a similar name has nothing to do, rules wise, with the horse animal companion (much like how a roc animal companion is not gargantuan).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The docile ability makes it clear that it can be removed with combat training from the Handle Animal skill. That means the hooves become primary attacks (docile makes them secondary and literally does nothing else).

The druid entry for horse says that the horse becomes combat trained at 4th-level, and references the Handle Animal skill. That mention literally serves no purpose whatsoever if it is not referencing docile and the conversion of the hoof attacks from secondary to primary.


I don't agree about them becoming primary attacks. I think it would say so if that's what it did. Whatever the meaning, it's not clear


Hooves are normally secondary attacks. The reason Docile exists seems to be the following rule, which would otherwise make a Light Horse's hoof attacks primary:

Universal Monster Rules, Natural Attacks wrote:
If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

However, the Heavy Horse also has docile, even though it also has a bite attack, so maybe a combat-trained heavy horse should have primary hoof attacks.


So a Horse animal companion is allowed a bite attack and it's Hoof attacks are marked secondary (*) but at 4th level advancement it gains Combat Trained.

A Horse, light or heavy, says that if it is combat trained it's Hoof attacks become primary with the ability Docile... which the Animal Companion is NOT listed as having unfortunately.

Since this is from an ability and not from a general rule the animal companion's Hoof attack would remain a secondary attack. The companion would need to have Docile.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
The druid entry for horse says that the horse becomes combat trained at 4th-level, and references the Handle Animal skill. That mention literally serves no purpose whatsoever if it is not referencing docile and the conversion of the hoof attacks from secondary to primary.

Untrue. Combat trained, from the handle animal skill applies to more than just horses. It is a bundle of tricks related to combat.

What is perhaps unclear is whether the combat training the horse gets for free replaces other tricks (like the standard training does) or if they are bonus tricks above and beyond the normal maximum. I'd be inclined toward the later personally, but I don't have real strong evidence for it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it gave you packed tricks, that would NOT be a benefit, but a drawback. I really don't think that's the case.


Dave Justus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The druid entry for horse says that the horse becomes combat trained at 4th-level, and references the Handle Animal skill. That mention literally serves no purpose whatsoever if it is not referencing docile and the conversion of the hoof attacks from secondary to primary.

Untrue. Combat trained, from the handle animal skill applies to more than just horses. It is a bundle of tricks related to combat.

What is perhaps unclear is whether the combat training the horse gets for free replaces other tricks (like the standard training does) or if they are bonus tricks above and beyond the normal maximum. I'd be inclined toward the later personally, but I don't have real strong evidence for it.

Handle Animal wrote:
An animal can be trained for only one general purpose, though if the creature is capable of learning additional tricks (above and beyond those included in its general purpose), it may do so. Training an animal for a purpose requires fewer checks than teaching individual tricks does, but no less time.

I think this would indicate that the Horse animal companion gains all of the tricks included in the Combat Training general purpose training while retaining all of the bonus tricks it had at level 3. Just like any additional feature of an advancement, the Horse would get these tricks immediately without needed the time and Handle Animal check required.

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