Is there a Spell or Skill or Ability that is the counterpart of "Read Magic" that allows a mage to "Write Magic"?


Rules Questions


Most everyone is probably familiar with the "Read Magic" spell, which basically allows the caster to:

(1) decipher magical inscriptions on objects ... that would otherwise be unintelligible; or
(2) identify glyph of warding, greater glyph of warding and symbol spells (with the appropriate Spellcraft check)

Ignoring the glyphs and symbols, which would be inscribed with a spell, my question is, where do these other "unintelligible", "magical inscriptions" come from and how were they created?

Specifically, is there a spell that a mage has to cast to write something down in this magical inscription so that nobody else can read it?

I have googled and searched for terms like "scribe magic" and "write magic", but couldn't find anything that matched.

Are there any skills, abilities, class abilities, etc. that I have missed that allow a mage to write in magic?

If the answer is no to these questions. Then a mage can just write in a magical language nobody can understand. And it seems like no other mage can understand it either, unless they cast the read magic spell. This doesn't make sense to me. Unless you cast a spell to magically hide the meaning, it should not take a magical spell to decipher the meaning if you are a mage and schooled in reading the magical writings of other mages. This all seems to beg the existence of a "scribe magic" spell that I can't seem to find.

I am really looking for official RAW here, not house rules, but opinions and debate are welcome.


Scrolls and spellbooks are written in "magic inscriptions". Aside from that I haven't seen anything that lets you write magic.


Well, most magical inscriptions on objects are basically the command word or the inscription embedding the item's necessary spells into the item; if you use 'read magic' on them, you either get the command word, or else a good idea of what spells are necessary to build that Wand of Booting Rear.

If, however, you're looking for 'nonmagical magical runes' - stuff in the 'language' of magic, but which doesn't actually evoke a magical effect - then I think you're essentially looking at the 'scribe scroll' feat, which all wizards gain automatically at 1st level; it is, simply, the ability to write in the language of magic in such a manner as to be able to cast a spell. If you're looking to allow your players (if you're the GM) or yourself and your fellows (if you're a player) to be able to pass notes in 'magic script' without it actually being, you know, explosive runes or some such, you might permit that feat to replicate the first portion (magical inscriptions), albeit in a manner only those with 'read magic' could peruse.

If you do this, though - or as a sop to your GM if you're trying to suggest it to them - someone with Spellcraft might be able to decipher the not-actually-magical 'coded communication'. DC of 25 or 30, perhaps ... ?


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Did you check out Arcane Mark and Illusory Script?


Shonn@SagaBorn wrote:
If the answer is no to these questions. Then a mage can just write in a magical language nobody can understand. And it seems like no other mage can understand it either, unless they cast the read magic spell. This doesn't make sense to me. Unless you cast a spell to magically hide the meaning, it should not take a magical spell to decipher the meaning if you are a mage and schooled in reading the magical writings of other mages. This all seems to beg the existence of a "scribe magic" spell that I can't seem to find.

Read magic is not required to read the magical writings of others. A simple Spellcraft check works. Read magic just does it automatically.

Quote:
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.


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I don't think magical writing is really a 'language' per se. Druidic is a secret language... but magic isn't really something I've seen that could be covered by linguistics or tongues or comprehend language.

Personally, I think the spellbooks and such would be written in a standard language the same way some massively complicated calculus or trigonometry equation would be. Those with the know-how can decipher it, but it's just gibbersh to us other poor mortals.

It's why regardless of the characters race or background or even class... Spells can be transcribed between casters.

That's at least my head-canon, I haven't seen anything in the rules that says one way or the other. In some settings we've used Draconic or elvish as the magic language... but if this is something unique... then it should be able to be bypassed with linguistics and language spells.


Thanks David. I had not looked at those, but just did. They are both cool spells, but not what I was searching for.


I think Jerra and phantom1592 are both onto something here. (Oh and yes I am a GM, so was asking with respect to Pathfinder adventures I am writing).

I have time and again heard other GMs or players/GMs in forums state that other magic user's spellbooks were writing in "magic" and that a mage that finds them has to use "read magic" to read them. (Also note I come from old school 1st ed. D&D, so we didn't have spellcraft checks and skills and abilities, etc. back then).

But as Jerra pointed out that a successful spellcraft check would allow one to read it, and phantom made the analogy to a complicated calculus equation, perhaps I was misinterpreting the word "magic". If the writing is about magic and is very complex to understand, as opposed to being written by a magical method, then it makes sense that a successful spellcraft check (which is really just seeing if you were smart enough/high enough level/well studied enough to understand or comprehend its meaning) would allow you to read it.

In this interpretation, the "read magic" spell would somehow boost one's ability to read and comprehend writings about complex magical subjects. (Which doesn't actually make sense, but since it is magic and make believe I guess it doesn't have to make sense, right?)
But it could explain why everyone has always said everything written by mages in their spellbooks, etc. was written in "magic" and there doesn't seem to be a spell, skill, or ability that would allow them to write magic in this way. (I don't think the scribe scroll skill really applies to writing in one's spell book, only to specifically scribing a spell into a scroll).

So that may be mystery solved. Opinions?


Shonn@SagaBorn wrote:

I think Jerra and phantom1592 are both onto something here. (Oh and yes I am a GM, so was asking with respect to Pathfinder adventures I am writing).

I have time and again heard other GMs or players/GMs in forums state that other magic user's spellbooks were writing in "magic" and that a mage that finds them has to use "read magic" to read them. (Also note I come from old school 1st ed. D&D, so we didn't have spellcraft checks and skills and abilities, etc. back then).

But as Jerra pointed out that a successful spellcraft check would allow one to read it, and phantom made the analogy to a complicated calculus equation, perhaps I was misinterpreting the word "magic". If the writing is about magic and is very complex to understand, as opposed to being written by a magical method, then it makes sense that a successful spellcraft check (which is really just seeing if you were smart enough/high enough level/well studied enough to understand or comprehend its meaning) would allow you to read it.

In this interpretation, the "read magic" spell would somehow boost one's ability to read and comprehend writings about complex magical subjects. (Which doesn't actually make sense, but since it is magic and make believe I guess it doesn't have to make sense, right?)
But it could explain why everyone has always said everything written by mages in their spellbooks, etc. was written in "magic" and there doesn't seem to be a spell, skill, or ability that would allow them to write magic in this way. (I don't think the scribe scroll skill really applies to writing in one's spell book, only to specifically scribing a spell into a scroll).

So that may be mystery solved. Opinions?

I think it was Order of the Stick that had that great joke about Power word: Kill. (not sure how it is now) In earlier editions at least you needed one page in the spellbook for each level the spell was... So by that logic Power Word Kill needed NINE pages... for ONE word... Led to a lot of laughs.

Now if the spell wasn't really so much 'one word', but a complex equation involving sine and cosine and tangents and zeta... mixed somehow with arcane elements and ley lines... then yeah, I could see a complex algorithm for turning guana into fireballs taking a few pages and some detailed studying to really 'memorize'.

Again, it's my head-canon but I've heard it said Math is the universal language and I've seen movies where humans and aliens try to communicate with Math and prime numbers and other 'universal' concepts. So it works for me.

Also having taken a few Math classes higher then I ever felt comfortable with... It REALLY looks like magic to me ;) This equation is going to either tell me how much voltage this circuit is processing... or reanimate the dead. I'm never REALLY sure :P


how about some more questions before we go to the answers:

What is the difference between a spell in a scroll and the same spell in the book?
Why does a mage who know the spell mage armor and find a scroll of mage armor need to first decipher it (by spell craft skill or read magic) before he can use the scroll?
Why does a mage who see an other mage casting a spell need to succeed in spellcraft to identify that spell even if he already know it ? (he heard the words 'wingardium leviosa' or what ever it was and he know it so why check?)
Why do mages have a limit to the number of spells they can prepare each day?
why do different level spells take different amount of pages to write them in a book. Even if they are all power words which mean they are actually one word each? (power word stun\kill\blind etc)
why does a spell that is cast go away from the memory of the wizard untill he learn it again?

All of these questions can be answered by a knowledge (old-school D&D) check.
Back in the earlier versions of D&D mages were described as being very secretive about their spell books, not allowing others to read them (unless trading spells). And each made his own secret way of writing down his spells in his spell book to prevent others who might steal or find them from knowing their secret spells. A written spell actually had to explain not only the gestures and words the caster had to use but the mental process as well. Did you need to think of red small cats eating brown mice when you said the 3rd word of the sleep spell? It may very well be so.
this is why every mage know his own spells and doesn't need to cipher them befor using them.
Because of this writing a spell is very complicated. It takes time AND a lot of pages, no really look it up a ninth level spell take a lot of pages even if it is a power word which is basically only one spoken word. The reason is that the mental process that must be accompanying said word need a lot of explaining and effort. Any-one who does not do it right can repeat the word as many times as he want and still get nothing. This is not harry potter magic where the right word and wand movement get you the spell done.
And because every mage writes the spell for himself in his own way. They also cast it differently. Which is why you need spellcraft to know what spell the other guy is casting. Even if you know that spell yourself. Same for deciphering a scroll or book, even if you have the said spells in your own books.

Now read magic let a caster understand the specific spell they are reading, and once they do they don' need to cipher it again. But only that specific written spellbook or scroll. Meeting the same spell in a different book or scroll would need a new cipher.

As for scrolls they (as mentioned in their section) are spells that already been casted(or mostly casted) and magically set into readable format. To finish casting the spell one must first cipher them but once that is done. He can cast them from the scroll. Notice that a 1st level mage who can not cast 9th level spells by himself could do it fro ma scroll (if his int is high enough) after ciphering it without a chance to fail. Because what actually happen is that the caster who wrote the scroll already casted it for him and now the scroll user only pick the target or effect he desire.

as i said before eac hspell has a lot of compelx things needed to cast it. the higher the spell the moe complex it's casting. which is why you need expirience and high intelegance to cast higher spells and to be able to prepere more.
the mental exersize of memorizing all the information needed for casting a spell is imense and somewhat magical, which is why only special people can do it and why they need to learn for so many years before being able to cast even minor cantrips .this also explain why ones need to rest before he does that.and once the spell is cast the effort to remmber all the details changes to blissfull forgetness.(like normal brain 10 minutes AFTER a test is finished. only more so and with magic)

edit : in a closer look a lot of this is explain in the magic section of the core rule book if you bother reading it. under 'arcane spells' look for :
'arcane magical writings', 'adding spells to a wizard's spellbook', (also see 'space in spellbook')


Magic inscriptions are not properly a (magic language', they are more of a personal code each wizard and practitioner evolves, but that follows certain magical and linguistic laws, which is why use of the Spellcraft skill allows to puzzle it out... basically, it's a sort of shorthand for more extended descriptives of magical operations.


phantom1592 wrote:
...

PWK is unleashed in one word, but the magical descriptives of that word and the various diagrams and sigils of power needed to charge it up take nine pages ... given how poerful the spell is, I don't see the contradiction.


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phantom1592 wrote:

I don't think magical writing is really a 'language' per se. Druidic is a secret language... but magic isn't really something I've seen that could be covered by linguistics or tongues or comprehend language.

Personally, I think the spellbooks and such would be written in a standard language the same way some massively complicated calculus or trigonometry equation would be. Those with the know-how can decipher it, but it's just gibbersh to us other poor mortals.

And spellbooks and scrolls are not calculus textbooks, but are instead more like notes from comprehensive lectures. Filled with doodles, emphasizing different things based on the writer, sometimes missing "obvious" conclusions that are a waste of time to write down... It takes time (or a spell) to decipher them, even for the knowledgable.

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