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Vital Strike isn't as great as Full Attacking is. It might be more available, but because it requires constant attention, it's not that great.
Mythic Vital Strike, on the other hand...
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what kind of suport has it gotten? outside of making your greatsword colossal sized for damage dice how is it useful in anyway?Bunches of feats, Cleaving smash from weapon masters handbook being a standout. It let's you get one step lower vital strikes on your cleave targets, which with a dwarf cleaver can get pretty insane, i.e. martial fireball.
As an example, my current warpriest of Gorum will eventually be able to attack everyone within 25 feet of him for 8d6+18 while hitting his original target for 11d6+18.
Looking at cleaving smash, I think you nasty have misread it. The feat doesn't let you use greater cleave with vital strike, greater cleave just lets you use a better vital strike with regular cleave.
You also get the reduced damage on both attacks, not just the secondary one.
That's... unfortunate... I had always read it as using one step lower vital strike on cleave feats, weather that be out of want or reading it at late hour I don't know. but that is sad.
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At that point its overkill damage. Also, I'm skeptical of you not investing very much to get 75-100 damage.
beside that, my warpriest build up there can get about 50-65 damage on average, more if you count the three attacks from closing with him.
Race: Aasimar Garuda (with Scion of Humanity)
HP: 99
AC 29 to 34 (+9armor, +7Dex, +1insight, +1natural armor, +1deflection; can gain an additional +2 from Sacred Armor and +3 from Shield of Faith)
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +14
Attacks: +22/22/17/17 (+9bab, +7dex, +2enhancement, +2feats, +4divine favor, -2TWF; can go up by another +1 with Divine Power and +3 with Sacred Weapon; Divine Power gives a bonus attack)
Damage: 1d10 +17(primary) or +13 (offhand) (+7dex or +3dex, +2enhancement, +4feats, +4divine favor; can go up another +1 with Divine Power and +3 with Sacred Weapon)
Traits: Seeker, Fate's Favored
Feats (b = bonus):
1) Weapon Finesse, (b) Weapon Focus Whip, (b) Exotic Weapon Whip
3) Whip Mastery
5) Two-Weapon Fighting
6) (b) Weapon Specialization Whip, (b) Improved Whip Mastery
7) Dual Enhancement
9) Greater Weapon Focus, (b) Combat Reflexes
11) Toughness
12) (b) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (b) Greater Weapon Specialization
Favored Class Bonus: Human gain 1/6th of a bonus combat feat
Skills: +17 Kn. Religion (12ranks), +24 Perception (12ranks), +17 Spellcraft (12ranks), 12ranks left to spend on whatever.
Ability Scores (20pt buy): Str14 Dex24(15+4enh+2race+3lvl) Con14 Int14(12+2enh) Wis16(14+2race) Cha7
(note: can drop strength as it isn't really important to this build)
Equipment as per Wealth by level (108,000gp)
Major Equipment: +3 Celestial Armor (25k), (2) +2 Agile Scorpion Whips (2*18k), Belt of +4 Dex (16k), Eyes of the Eagle (2.5k), Headband of +2 Int (4k), +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2k), +1 Ring of Protection (2k), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9k), Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5k)
remaining: 6.5k
AC is good, HP is good, saves are good, skills are ok.
Average Damage is between 82 and 124.5 depending on the buffs currently active.
Nothing has been sacrificed to get the damage to this point.
I have plenty more builds that are 75-100 damage without sacrificing other areas.
I have a level 12 Halfling Cavalier build that delivers an average of 73.5damage which flexes up to 97.5vs large+, 109.5 vs challenged targets, and 133.5 vs large+ challenged targets.
How about an Alchemist? I have a level 12 Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist build that, starting round 2 (Monstrous Physique 1 - Charda), delivers an average of 107.5damage per round that goes up to 212.5avg with sneak attack. Oh, and that is while charging due to Pounce. :)
Druid4/Fighter8 build with pounce? Yup, I got them too. Easily between 100-125damage depending on form.
Level 12 Unchained Monk that moves 40feet and still does a Flurry of Blows full attack? Yup! 125average damage per round.
That doesn't even get into the insanity of archer builds. I have an Inquisitor Archer 12 build that does 146avg damage starting in the second round (first round is 82avg damage).
A level 12 build that does 75-100 is easy. It takes only a bit of effort to push it past 100 into the 125 territory and I always do it without sacrificing other elements of the build (such as saves).
Two attacks, sorry. I was thinking you could ready a hit but I now remember that readying takes your turn away, I get two because of the fortuitous weapon enchantment. But, while vital strike is a sub-par feat, its not crippling you can use it and still do almost as well as an optimized build. Why do it? because rolling a bunch of dice for one hit is fun.
Many of my builds full attack while still moving. There are a number of ways to do that.
As for 2 rounding most CR appropriate monsters by yourself, that is what high level encounters turn into, rocket tag.
My point is that 30damage or even 60 damage is not very much. Sure, some builds are rooted in one spot and thus may not get a full attack off, but there are a whole lot of builds out there where that is not an issue.
Vital Strike is just not that good an option.
beside that, my warpriest build up there can get about 50-65 damage on average, more if you count the three attacks from closing with him.
How are you getting three attacks from a creature closing with your Warpriest?
Whip + Combat Reflexes + some kind of shenanigans?
I like vital strike on my swashbuckler rogues who use impactGreat Swords and enlarge person. It works very well with feint. Canny Tumble and Whirlwind is better, but nothing beats big Vital Strike rogue dice rolls.
As a player I currently have a Magus(kensai) that uses a large impact bastard sword, and Canny Tumble for lots of mobility and accuracy. Maximizing base damage or adding a + multiple to a crit tosses out some pretty impressive damage when large, and crazy damage when Huge. Very fun build.
Two attacks, sorry. I was thinking you could ready a hit but I now remember that readying takes your turn away, I get two because of the fortuitous weapon enchantment. But, while vital strike is a sub-par feat, its not crippling you can use it and still do almost as well as an optimized build. Why do it? because rolling a bunch of dice for one hit is fun.
Man paizo has been bugging out on me recently. it replaced my last post with what was supposed to be my most recent...
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What about a Gorumite Stalker Vigilantes?
It's 3/4 BAB class with early entry to VS--you qualify for VS with Vital Punishment at L6
Vital Punishment (Ex): The vigilante gains Vital Strike as a bonus feat, though he does not have to meet the prerequisites for this feat. Once per round, before he makes an attack of opportunity, he can declare it to be a vital punishment. If the attack hits, the vigilante can apply the Vital Strike feat. The vigilante can apply the Improved Vital Strike or Greater Vital Strike feat as his vital punishment instead if he later gains those feats. A vigilante must be at least 6th level to select this talent.
and and this synergizing talent:
Leave an Opening* (Ex): The vigilante’s hidden strike leaves an unbalancing opening in a foe’s defenses, setting up the foe to be attacked again. At the beginning of the foe’s next turn, if the vigilante threatens the foe, the foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the vigilante. Multiple attacks against the same foe don’t create multiple attacks of opportunity in the same round (but attacks against several foes can cause each to provoke one attack of opportunity). Only a stalker vigilante can select this talent.
-Charge in with Gorum's Swordmanship (VS on charge) OR move and VS
-Get AOO with VS beginning of next turn-Use Staggering Blow either time to Stagger enemy
or
-Flank an Enemy and Attack with VS and Hidden Strike
-Get AOO with VS beginning of next turn
-Use Staggering Blow either time to Stagger enemy
This is an off the cuff thought, but thought I'd put it out there for discussion
In one campaign I am playing in, I have gone the path of greater weapon of the chosen and Gorum's swordsmanship and I'm definitely the heavy hitter. I don't actually have vital strike yet (level 5)but next level I get it early so I expect that I'll maintain my position as top damage dealer.
Granted this isn't exactly an optimized party but it's the first time I've seen vital strike be worthwhile, and just greater weapon of the chosen has already been really fun.
Reach Weapon + Lunge + Vital Strike chain + Death or Glory?
Obviously, only works against large creatures, but strikes me as a Come And Get Me style approach with decent damage if paired with a 1d10/2d4 reach weapon.
Is my assumption correct that the 10' reach creature wouldn't be able to strike back with its immediate action?
Death or Glory (Combat)
Even when facing a larger foe, you aren't afraid to take great risks in order to finish the fight.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Against a creature of size Large or larger, you can make a single melee attack as a full-round action, gaining a +4 bonus on the attack roll, damage roll, and critical confirmation roll. You gain an additional +1 on this bonus at base attack bonus +11, +16, and +20 (for a maximum of +7 at base attack +20). After you resolve your attack, the opponent you attack can spend an immediate action to make a single melee attack against you with the same bonuses.
Special: You can combine the full-round action attack this feat allows with the benefit of Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike.
Lunge (Combat)
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
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Yes, unless the ability makes a specific exception (and Death or Glory doesn't do so for the counter-attack) a creature can't attack outside its reach. Same concept as using a reach weapon to perform combat maneuvers you're not trained in without provoking AoO.
Notably you do get counter-attacked if you run into creatures with more than 10ft reach (unless you manage to threaten further than 15ft eg by being enlarged yourself, or using Long Arm).
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At that point its overkill damage. Also, I'm skeptical of you not investing very much to get 75-100 damage.
Not terribly hard: +2 greatsword with 20 str, power attack, and weapon specialization averages 27 damage per attack (81 per round if all three attacks hit) without additional investment. A little tinkering could easily push that higher.
-Flank an Enemy and Attack with VS and Hidden Strike
-Get AOO with VS beginning of next turn
-Use Staggering Blow either time to Stagger enemy
Sadly, asterisk marked talent's only work against unaware foes, so you only get to use the talent once per combat (unless you have the advanced benefit of Norgorber’s Silent Shiv).
Reach Weapon + Lunge + Vital Strike chain + Death or Glory?
Or you could full attack and do more damage. I'm not even talking about selecting different feats instead, I'm talking about that with such a character, in almost every situations where you could use Death or Glory+Vital Strike, not using them would actually do more damage.
The problem with Death or Glory is that the benefits aren't worth the action cost, even without the retaliation attack thing. +4 on your main attack probably pushes you over the hitcap, and +4 damage on only one attack is quite frankly not much.I'm skeptical of you not investing very much to get 75-100 damage.
Automatic Bonus Progression, 15+2 starting strength (plus all 3 pips), Fighter with only Power Attack, a Greatsword, and Boots of Speed equals an average DPR of 74.4 against an average CR12 monster. 44k gold (vs. WBL) and 11 feats unused.
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Sadly, asterisk marked talent's only work against unaware foes, so you only get to use the talent once per combat (unless you have the advanced benefit of Norgorber’s Silent Shiv).-Flank an Enemy and Attack with VS and Hidden Strike
-Get AOO with VS beginning of next turn
-Use Staggering Blow either time to Stagger enemy
Or you pump up acrobatics and use up close and personal to trigger leave an opening. Up close and personal treats your target as if they were unaware of you.
NO, it deal 1d8s damage instead of 1d4s. All it says is it deals hidden strike damage as if they were unawere. NOT that the attack is as if they are unaware, nor that your hidden strikes are treated as if the target is unaware. Just the damage of being unaware.
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NO, it deal 1d8s damage instead of 1d4s. All it says is it deals hidden strike damage as if they were unawere. NOT that the attack is as if they are unaware, nor that your hidden strikes are treated as if the target is unaware. Just the damage of being unaware.
Rider effects are part of the original attack, and thus if the hidden strike damage is treated as if the target was unaware of the stalker then you can apply a talent with an asterisk.
There are a few posts from Mark Seifter here and here that support my interpretation.
Feel free to FAQ if you disagree.