The subject line says it all. Is it worth it to spec my Trex into grappling feats and if so which ones are best? Or would it be best to spec to deal more damage via power attack/vital strike etc. At the end of the day can Trex companions make good grapplers at there Large size or late game will it not be very effective and hence made more for damage dealing?
Large Size gives a minor advantage, a +1, and allows grappling of Huge or smaller creatures. But the companion won't get powerful features like Swallow Whole like other Rexs can, and compared to others, will be significantly weaker.
On top of that, in order to specialize in Grappling, you need feats like Improved Unarmed Strike, which are sheer feat taxes, and a good Dexterity score (which is difficult for a Large-sized creature to acquire without major sacrifice). You also need an Intelligence of 3+ in order to take that feat. There's just a lot of crap you need to deal with in order to use certain feats, and honestly, for a Rex, it's not worth it.
Vital Strike feats are better, fit more with his power, and quite frankly has few counters. (The only thing that can stop it, to my knowledge, is Crane Wing, and even that's superfluous now.)
**EDIT** Heck, even with Crane Wing, a smart T-Rex will use its two attacks gained from the Multiattack feature it receives at 9th level, so Crane Wing only delays an inevitable hit.
Large Size gives a minor advantage, a +1, and allows grappling of Huge or smaller creatures. But the companion won't get powerful features like Swallow Whole like other Rexs can, and compared to others, will be significantly weaker.
On top of that, in order to specialize in Grappling, you need feats like Improved Unarmed Strike, which are sheer feat taxes, and a good Dexterity score (which is difficult for a Large-sized creature to acquire without major sacrifice). You also need an Intelligence of 3+ in order to take that feat. There's just a lot of crap you need to deal with in order to use certain feats, and honestly, for a Rex, it's not worth it.
Vital Strike feats are better, fit more with his power, and quite frankly has few counters. (The only thing that can stop it, to my knowledge, is Crane Wing, and even that's superfluous now.)
**EDIT** Heck, even with Crane Wing, a smart T-Rex will use its two attacks gained from the Multiattack feature it receives at 9th level, so Crane Wing only delays an inevitable hit.
Hmm interesting. Once the Trex gets its second attack at level 9 does that mean vital strike doesn't really work anymore does it?
Unfortunately, no.
Unfortunately, no.
So does that mean getting Vital strike is useless? or should I just not use the second attack that is available to me?
Large Size gives a minor advantage, a +1, and allows grappling of Huge or smaller creatures. But the companion won't get powerful features like Swallow Whole like other Rexs can, and compared to others, will be significantly weaker.
On top of that, in order to specialize in Grappling, you need feats like Improved Unarmed Strike, which are sheer feat taxes, and a good Dexterity score (which is difficult for a Large-sized creature to acquire without major sacrifice). You also need an Intelligence of 3+ in order to take that feat. There's just a lot of crap you need to deal with in order to use certain feats, and honestly, for a Rex, it's not worth it.
Vital Strike feats are better, fit more with his power, and quite frankly has few counters. (The only thing that can stop it, to my knowledge, is Crane Wing, and even that's superfluous now.)
**EDIT** Heck, even with Crane Wing, a smart T-Rex will use its two attacks gained from the Multiattack feature it receives at 9th level, so Crane Wing only delays an inevitable hit.
The Trex when animal growth'd is Huge size which gives a further bonus, its dexterity is respectable at least 16+, I don't see how it isn't built for grabbing? am I missing something? Couldn't it just grab and pin a foe? And at level 4 most people get 3 INT for an animal companion anyways that's making it not a big prerequisite.
Large Size gives a minor advantage, a +1, and allows grappling of Huge or smaller creatures.There's no size limit on grappling.
Iif you went the grapple route with a t-rex, simply pick up Dirty Fighting > Improved Grapple > Greater Grapple
Doesn't Mr. Rex have the building blocks to be a great grappler with a high STR, grab special attack for a further bonus and large (buffed to Huge) size? Only weakness may be its BAB but can't it more than make up for that by taking 2-3 feats? Or still is damage dealing the way to go?
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To be honest, it depends the type of campaign your GM is running, how high a level you plan on going and your party make up.
Assuming PC is Druid or another class with Boon Companion Feat.
L1: HP: 9 | AC: 17 | CMB: +3 | CMD: 16
L2: HP: 13 | AC: 17 | CMB: +4 | CMD: 17
L3: HP: 13 | AC: 19 | CMB: +4 | CMD: 17
L4: HP: 18 | AC: 19 | CMB: +5 | CMD: 18
L5: HP: 22 | AC: 19 | CMB: +5 | CMD: 18 (Dirty Fighting)
L6: HP: 27 | AC: 22 | CMB: +7 | CMD: 21
L7: HP: 39 | AC: 23 | CMB: +16 | CMD: 25 (Size increase, Improved Grapple)
L8: HP: 45 | AC: 23 | CMB: +17 | CMD: 26
L9: HP: 52 | AC: 25 | CMB: +20 | CMD: 29
w/ Animal Growth which you can cast at least 1/day now
L9: HP: 58 | AC: 25 | CMB: +25 | CMD: 33
L10: HP: 58 | AC: 25 | CMB: +22 | CMD: 29 (Greater Grapple)
w/ Animal Growth
L10: HP: 58 | AC: 25 | CMB: +27 | CMD: 33
To be an efficient grappler, you need serious feat and magic item investment. Your T-Rex's L6 Grapple CMB is the equivalent of a L1 PC Grappler.
If you took the average CMD of a creature of equivalent CR, your T-Rex will only begin being successful 50% of the time (!) at Level 7 (!!). Even with the eventual Imp Grapple/Grt Grapple/Grab bonus to your grapple CMB, without buffs, it will keep hovering around the 50% mark through Level 10 and beyond depending on the creatures your GM throws at you. Also, it takes until halfway to the level cap until it finally has the action economy to bite/grab and then pin (via greater grapple) in the same round.
Without knowing your party make up (enough melee dps to focus fire a grapple target?), your campaign (lots of humanoid mooks or low CMD foes?) or your expected level cap (will you play much beyond L9?) I can't suggest whether or not to make grappling your TRex's main focus.*
*That being said, a L10 Hasted Animal Growth'd Power Attacking T-Rex with Improved Natural Attack gets +14/+14/+9 4d6+30 (w/ 3 possible grabs) or a single attack of +14 8d6 +30 (with 1 grab). In the types of games I play in, I'd rather have the extra DPS and make grappling a sideline/back up than my TRex's main shtick.
Without knowing your party make up (enough melee dps to focus fire a grapple target?), your campaign (lots of humanoid mooks or low CMD foes?) or your expected level cap (will you play much beyond L9?) I can't suggest whether or not to make grappling your TRex's main focus.*
*That being said, a L10 Hasted Animal Growth'd Power Attacking T-Rex with Improved Natural Attack gets +14/+14/+9 4d6+30 (w/ 3 possible grabs) or a single attack of +14 8d6 +30 (with 1 grab). In the types...
Yes Shoot for damage and if you get the grab cool. If not your still fulfilling the end goal of killing the target.
Unfortunately, no.So does that mean getting Vital strike is useless? or should I just not use the second attack that is available to me?
To be honest, that's what makes a Rex not such a great battle companion, because you have to either sacrifice features, or deal with its sub-par natural weapon (which gets at best two attacks). Not to mention, it's 3/4 BAB, and not Full BAB like it should be.
It's not that Vital Strike is useless, it's just that you're basically given a choice to either make use of the second attack (which could mathematically be better, depending on your Strength modifier in comparison to your damage dice), or to ignore that feature and spend feats on it.
In other words, it's pulling at two distinctly separate playstyles; multiple attacks at full-scaled BAB, or a single hit that does all your damage. Not to mention, the Rex can't even take Vital Strike unless it has 3 Intelligence, and 6 BAB (which it doesn't get until Druid Level 8, and in the following level, you get the Multiattack benefit).
Also, upgrading to the next size category only doubles the bonuses and penalties regarding size (unless Animal Growth gives bonuses/penalties to Strength/Dexterity in the form of Size Bonuses/Penalties).
To be honest, it depends the type of campaign your GM is running, how high a level you plan on going and your party make up.
** spoiler omitted **
To be an efficient grappler, you need serious feat and magic item investment. Your T-Rex's L6 Grapple CMB is the equivalent of a L1 PC Grappler.
If you took the average CMD of a creature of equivalent CR, your T-Rex will only begin being successful 50% of the time (!) at Level 7 (!!). Even with the eventual Imp Grapple/Grt Grapple/Grab bonus to your grapple CMB, without buffs, it will keep hovering around the 50% mark through Level 10 and beyond depending on the creatures your GM throws at you. Also, it takes until halfway to the level cap until it finally has the action economy to bite/grab and then pin (via greater grapple) in the same round.
Without knowing your party make up (enough melee dps to focus fire a grapple target?), your campaign (lots of humanoid mooks or low CMD foes?) or your expected level cap (will you play much beyond L9?) I can't suggest whether or not to make grappling your TRex's main focus.*
*That being said, a L10 Hasted Animal Growth'd Power Attacking T-Rex with Improved Natural Attack gets +14/+14/+9 4d6+30 (w/ 3 possible grabs) or a single attack of +14 8d6 +30 (with 1 grab). In the types...
Great response very detailed thank you. We are running Rise of the Runelord. The group consists of a fighter, a melee druid (favored animal I turn into is usually a dire tiger or allosaurus both do siginficant damage), a dual wielding rogue, and a wizard. The trex is the final component of the team. The campaign will go to level 18ish the GM has said. Or perhaps a better question might be to make Mr. Rex the damage dealer and myself (melee druid) the grappler? Could my melee druid in wild shape form while AG is cast on me making me Huge size be a better and more effective grappler?