The 12th level Abyssal Bloodline power "Abyssal Bloodrage" increases the strength granted by bloodrage and increases the penalty to AC.
The Urban Bloodrager Archetype makes it so your bloodrage can increase Dex instead and removes the ac penalty.
So if a character with both is 12th level, how do the two interact?
1) When using controlled bloodrage do you take a:
A) -4 penalty to AC
B) -2 penalty to AC
C) No penalty to AC
2) If you choose to increase Dexterity when you bloodrage, do you get:
A) +2 to str, +6 to dex
B) +0 to str, +6 to dex
C) +0 to str, +8 to dex
I would say you wouldn't get an increase in DEX from Abyssal, it's STR only.
I'd probably rule that you take the -2, and then later on the -4, but that's a big probably.
Do you mean you wouldnt get an increase in str from abyssal when using controlled bloodrage to increase dex?
Also, why on earth would you take a -2 then "later on" take a -4?...
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I would say you wouldn't get an increase in DEX from Abyssal, it's STR only.
I'd probably rule that you take the -2, and then later on the -4, but that's a big probably.
Do you mean you wouldnt get an increase in str from abyssal when using controlled bloodrage to increase dex?
Also, why on earth would you take a -2 then "later on" take a -4?...
Correct. You would if you picked STR yes, if you picked DEX or CON then you wouldn't get a boosted STR for that Rage.
At 12th level, the morale bonus to Strength granted by your bloodrage increases by 2,
IF you used Controlled Bloodrage and didn't pick STR then there's no Morale Bonus for Abyssal Bloodrage to increase.
And ah, my bad, I misread Abyssal Bloodrage, I thought the AC penalty went up alongside the bonuses.
Seems odd that you're saying you wouldnt increase a non-existent str bonus but you would increase a non-existent AC penalty. Its certainly the the least beneficial (and therefore safest) ruling, but the logic seems a little contradictory. What are other people's opinions?
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Seems odd that you're saying you wouldnt increase a non-existent str bonus but you would increase a non-existent AC penalty. Its certainly the the least beneficial (and therefore safest) ruling, but the logic seems a little contradictory. What are other people's opinions?
It was indded a balancing factor I chose to add in, which is why I said probably twice :3
Taking absolutely no AC penalty is also a completely valid interpretation, since you don't have any penalty to build on in the first place.
Seems odd that you're saying you wouldnt increase a non-existent str bonus but you would increase a non-existent AC penalty. The logic seems a little contradictory. What are other people's opinions?It was a balancing factor I chose to add in, which is why I said probably twice :3
Taking absolutely no AC penalty is also a completely valid interpretation, since you don't have any penalty to build on in the first place.
Yeah I'd imagine you'd either take a -4 penalty or no penalty... And i'd like to think that if you gain no strength bonus its not the former, because that would mean the long awaited 12th level bloodline power would be "Take a -4 penalty to AC when bloodraging, gain no other benefit from this power" - and gaining nothing at all would be better than that. :)
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Yeah I'd imagine you'd either take a -4 penalty or no penalty... And i'd like to think that if you gain no strength bonus its not the former, because that would mean the long awaited 12th bloodline power would be "Take a -4 penalty to AC when bloodraging, gain no other benefit from this power" - gaining nothing would be better than that. :)Seems odd that you're saying you wouldnt increase a non-existent str bonus but you would increase a non-existent AC penalty. The logic seems a little contradictory. What are other people's opinions?It was a balancing factor I chose to add in, which is why I said probably twice :3
Taking absolutely no AC penalty is also a completely valid interpretation, since you don't have any penalty to build on in the first place.
Granted you would gain the STR bonus, if you picked STR for that specific rage. Urban doesn't permanently lock which ability you can pick, and you don't have to pick DEX ^w^
So, anyone else have an opinion on whether you can benefit from the 12th level abyssal bloodline power and whether you'd get the AC penalty in a controlled bloodrage?
& if yes to both, what would the AC penalty be? -4 or -2?
My RAW reading is that the bloodline power works (but only if your controlled bloodrage is already increasing your strength) and the penalty (that you're not taking) would increase, so it'd work out as increasing your strength, but not changing your ac. But seeing as that's a nice bit of synergy and makes a nice bloodline/archetype combo, I'm wanting to see if other people agree or disagree before I accept that it works.
I think there's no need for an FAQ.
Abyssal Bloodrage "increases" "the morale bonus to Strength granted by your bloodrage", if there is nothing to increase, this can't to anything.* Likewise, "the penalty to AC" doesn't exist because an Urban Bloodrager "takes no penalties to AC", and thus it can't be changed. The increase does not get applied to any other ability score, because nothing says it does - Controlled Bloodrage is not worded in a way to allow any change to the amount you can distribute with it apart from what the ability grants.
In effect, whenever you apply at least some of the bonus from Controlled Bloodrage to strength, the bloodline increases it by the stated amount, if you put the entire amount to Dex or Con, Abyssal Bloodrage does nothing. You never get any AC penalty.
At 12th to 15th level:
Full bonus to Strength: +8 Str, -0 AC
Full bonus to Dexterity: +6 Dex, -0 AC
Split up: +4 Str, +4 Dex, -0 AC or +6 Str, +2 Dex, -0 AC
*) It like the "—" entry in a spells per day list - it's not a 0, there simply is nothing there for a high ability score to increase.
Is that actually a rule understanding issue, or is he deliberately imposing that for balance? Because it sounds a lot like the latter.
The bloodline ability says "the penalty to AC becomes –4 instead of –2". The penalty. Per the rules of the English language, that phrasing can only mean that the ability refers to a previously stated penalty. Since it's the first (and only) mention of a penalty in the description, the ability doesn't create one itself. Thus the penalty the ability refers to is without any doubt the one from Bloodrage. Which means it is subject to the the archetype's alterations to Bloodrage, namely that the character "takes no penalties to AC".
Where is the -2 even coming from? The bloodline power never talks about increasing the penalty by 2 or imposing a seperate -2 penalty (which it could, as it would stack).
"an urban bloodrager (...) takes no penalties to AC" means an Urban Bloodrager takes no penalties to AC due to using Bloodrage. It's like a coupon that gives you an item for free. It doesn't matter if the store changes the price, it's free for you because your coupon says so.