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Our discussions and research into Create Pit last night led to the following realizations, but also led to some interesting questions (at the end):
The pit is extradimensional space and entire unto itself. It does not connect to anything. If you cast it on a 10'x10' table, you could look down 20-30' into the pit and see a bottom that far away, but if you looked under the table, you would see open space through to the other side of the table. I'm unclear what would happen if you moved the table, but I assume the pit would go with it, although that could end up with some silliness if you, say, pushed it off a cliff. My personal ruling would be that you could not move the table until the spell ended.
Also, since it's extradimensional, rather than physical, if you have 2 pits next to each other, you cannot go from one to the other. You cannot "dig" through the walls of the pit, use "merge into stone", "passwall", or anything like that to get out. Aside from the spell requiring "sufficient space" (10'x10'), casting it "under" a door or wall, would simply have you look up from the bottom and see the area you came from, as it's not a physical pit, but extradimensional. At the end of the spell, you simply end where you started, as if shunted out of a bag of holding.
However, the spell does not say if you need "line of sight" or "line of effect" to where you're casting it. So, can someone cast it from around the corner, through a wall or door, while blind, etc.? E.g. if the bad guy hears the PCs tinkering with the door or clanking up the hall, can he cast Create Pit on the other side of door or down the hall and around the corner? Does the caster simply need to know where the 10'x10' is in his mind to cast the pit or must he have line of sight/effect?
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
So yes, provided you appropriately define the location where the spell will take effect it will work without being able to see it.
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Also, I would rule that if they attempted to cast it on a non-floor surface, then it would simply fail. If you cast it on the ceiling, it would not have an opening that went "down". If you cast it on the wall, again, it has nowhere to go. The surface has to have at least a mostly level surface from which you can determine a "down towards gravity".
All spells require line of effect unless stated otherwise in the spell or the magic section.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
So you cannot cast it through a wall or door.
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Hmm... it seems these two sections of rules are contradictory. One says you either need to see or define the target area (not both), the other requires a clear line of effect to the point of origin. Well, that's a recipe for confusion.
Those are not contradictory, it is effectively an 'and'. You must have clear line of effect to the point of origin. You must also be able to either see or at least define where you want it to appear.
Example: I have line of effect to a location (an intersection) but due to fog I cannot see it. I can still cast fireball there because before the fog was created I saw that location and thus I know the location is there (ie. I am defining the location).
An example of where I have line of sight but not line of effect:
I am looking through a wall of force. I have line of sight but not line of effect. (Note: many visual effects, such as gaze attacks, will work still.)
Create Mr. Pitt, are you saying you agree with my statement(s) or disagree with them?
Your post is a bit confusing.
I think you misunderstood my post then. Line of Sight/"define the area" is one requirement, Line of Effect is a separate requirement.
There are two qualifications
1) Line of Sight (can be sidestepped by defining the area).
AND
2) Line of Effect
These are not the same thing.
You can have Line of Sight without having Line of Effect.
Example: Wall of Force.
You can have Line of Effect without having Line of Sight.
Example: Fog Cloud.
Having both is not contradictory.
Aside from the spell requiring "sufficient space" (10'x10'), casting it "under" a door or wall, would simply have you look up from the bottom and see the area you came from, as it's not a physical pit, but extradimensional.
I don't follow your reasoning here. Looking up out of the pit ought to be much the same as looking up out of a normal pit. You can climb down one side of the pit and climb out the other. If you were able to cast it under a wall (which probably isn't allowed) - or someone cast 'wall of stone' to create a wall going over the middle of it - why shouldn't you be able to interact normally with anything above you?
Your idea of casting the pit on a table has intriguing possibilities. Apparently you can cast it on a moving ship (and there's no rule saying the ship can't keep moving). So could you cast it on a lightweight ten-by-ten wooden surface and then carry it around with you? Can you slide it under a gap? Turn it upside down to tip people out?
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Aside from the spell requiring "sufficient space" (10'x10'), casting it "under" a door or wall, would simply have you look up from the bottom and see the area you came from, as it's not a physical pit, but extradimensional.I don't follow your reasoning here. Looking up out of the pit ought to be much the same as looking up out of a normal pit. You can climb down one side of the pit and climb out the other. If you were able to cast it under a wall (which probably isn't allowed) - or someone cast 'wall of stone' to create a wall going over the middle of it - why shouldn't you be able to interact normally with anything above you?
Your idea of casting the pit on a table has intriguing possibilities. Apparently you can cast it on a moving ship (and there's no rule saying the ship can't keep moving). So could you cast it on a lightweight ten-by-ten wooden surface and then carry it around with you? Can you slide it under a gap? Turn it upside down to tip people out?
It's not an actual pit, though, it's extradimensional space, like a bag of holding. In any case, you can't cast it unless you have a 10'x10' clear area, so no casting under a door or wall. I suppose if someone casts a wall spell over the pit, it might be an issue, although in that case, the wall spell would probably fail, as there isn't a solid surface under it.
I don't think you can move the pit once it's cast, even if you cast it on a large table. The table would be essentially unmoveable relative to the ground it's on.
I don't think you can move the pit once it's cast, even if you cast it on a large table. The table would be essentially unmoveable relative to the ground it's on.
So what you're saying it that this is the best anti-ship spell ever created. Get within medium range and cast it on the deck. Result, the ship comes to a crashing halt, most likely causing all kinds of destruction as cargo and crew and possibly the deck itself as that 10' immovable section is stopping an entire multi-ton ship.
Now does that make sense vs letting the table move? Remember, there is no save creating the pit itself, only avoiding falling into it.
What happens if the surface the spell is on no longer qualifies as a horizontal surface? If you cast it on a 10x10 table and the barbarian table-flips it, does the spell fizzle?
If you flip the table, it's still horizontal, just oriented differently. Secondly, orientation is only a factor at creation. As long as nothing destroys the surface, I see no reason for it to vanish prematurely. I'm not sure there is any practical application for altering the orientation though.
If the pit goes "Down"..... I think it would work like this.
Cast the pit on a surface, say, a 15 by 15 table. Barbarian flips the table. Table with open pit lands opening first on the bandit he was having a drinking contest with (and dropping the cups down the pit).
Considering it is an extra-dimensional space, I feel it has a pre-defined orientation, like Create Demiplane. This is evidenced by the spell referencing "Falling", which means once inside it has its own downward gravity. In this example, the table would engulf the bandit head first. To which, the bandit would fall head first into the pit (and broken shards of glass :p).
Yeah, the RAW says nothing about changing the orientation of the pit once it's created. The devs probably never thought about it.
I also believe the Bag of Holding reference is wrong. BoH says nothing about if it's upended everything falls out. Only if it's "turned inside out", which may be a consequence of upending it, but a bag is malleable. A surface that can hold a Create Pit spell is not.
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However, the spell does not say if you need "line of sight" or "line of effect" to where you're casting it. So, can someone cast it from around the corner, through a wall or door, while blind, etc.? E.g. if the bad guy hears the PCs tinkering with the door or clanking up the hall, can he cast Create Pit on the other side of door or down the hall and around the corner? Does the caster simply need to know where the 10'x10' is in his mind to cast the pit or must he have line of sight/effect?
The Create Pit spell requires two things:
1-. Line of Effect. No matter the type of spell you're casting, ALL spells require LoE towards their targeting descriptor.
2-. Enough space. The Create Pit has an Effect targeting descriptor (An effect is something that appears or is created from nothingnesss), so you require a line of effect of enough size to fit the initial space ("10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole") the spell requires (the pit "depth" is generated by the spell itself)
Rules that apply:
- Line of Effect:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
- Spell Targeting Descriptor
Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levelsEffect
- Effect description:
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
So:
- You CANNOT cast Create Pit behind a door (a door is a solid barrier that blocks LoE) with an exception: Any 1ft/sq gap in the barrier (for example, an arrowslit) allows LoE to work (still, you'll probably require to be next to the gap in order to achieve LoE towards the other side)
- You CANNOT cast Create Pit around a corner (while LoE is not affected by fog or darkness... a line of effect is still a line). Lines are straight, they don't turn corners.
- You CAN cast Create Pit down a hallway surrounded by thick mist and under a Darkness spell if you have a Line of Effect towards the destination point. Since you won't be able to "see" the Line of Effect, you still have the choice of defining it, but you must somehow define a legit target based in the targeting descriptor.
For example, for a fireball that is thrown off your hand and flies somewhere, you can perfectly define "down the hallway, until it reaches maximum range or it hits something" (since the Fireball has PoO - Point of Origin - which is a single square intersection, when it hits something the GM may chose any fitting square intersection there), but for a Create Pit that requires a full, legit 10x10ft space, it may be harder to define the same way.