"I want to do that much damage!"

[darkfireslide]

I've been running my first Pathfinder campaign for the first time in a while, and I ran into an interesting issue with a new player a few days ago that I didn't really know how to address. I've been a DM for about 8 years of 3.5e, and 3 for Pathfinder. I'm not as familiar with Pathfinder yet as I was when 3.5 ended, and so I'm not as familiar with the wide range of classes available, especially since Pathfinder is so much more focused on base classes than prestige classes compared to 3.5e. My other two players are both long-time veterans of D&D, especially 3.5e, and I myself am running an NPC cleric of Gorum, while the two veterans are running a Gunslinger and a Ninja. The new guy is running an Inquisitor. The player of the Ninja invited the Inquisitor to play, and I told him that any class was fine so long as the Ninja helped him learn his character. This didn't go as well as planned.

So the players are assaulting this bandit fort because a double agent of a crime syndicate tipped them off that the bandits were working with the syndicate, and may have information about the syndicate. The characters are 5th level, except for the Inquisitor, who was 4th level because he missed a session. They get past the first group of archers on the wall by tanking shots on the approach, blasting open the gate's lock with the Gunslinger's grit ability, and then climbed the stairs on the other side. They clean them up and then proceed to fight these mercenary longspearmen. During this fight, the Ninja uses his invisibility trick (not a fan of this ability--very powerful for what it costs, since it essentially gives him a free sneak attack) to get around the flanks of one of the spearmen and uses that flank. Thanks to his sneak attack and some good rolls, he deals about 40+ points of damage in one round.

The Inquisitor, who is using a Repeating Crossbow, then fires one shot, and hits for 2 points of damage.
"He did about 42 points of damage that last round," he then says about the Ninja. To help him out, they gave him a Strength 2 Masterwork Composite Longbow to use instead, but even so, without rapid shot he was only doing about 1d8+2 (+3 with point blank shot) on a successful hit, which, given his 16 Dexterity, wasn't as often as he had hoped.

I admit that I didn't know much about the Inquisitor, and figured it to be sort of a divine Rogue. After the session, I read into the class and began to understand why the new guy was having some issues. Inquisitors have a lot to keep track of: Bard spell progression, Judgments, and at 5th level, Bane, as well as Teamwork Feats and a slew of other abilities. This is all on top of him trying to play a ranged character, which are difficult to pull off in the first place without the right stats and feats. Also unbeknownst to me until last session was that he was playing an Ifrit, but because I trusted my Ninja, I didn't catch this until he had already made the character and ran a session with it. Bad GMing on my part, I suppose. Alongside my research into the Inquisitor I discovered that Ifrits get a +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom, and +2 to Charisma, which is.. sub-optimal for an Inquisitor.

In response, I decided to send the Inquisitor a guide through email on his abilities to help him understand the class better. This is basically just a band-aid to the overall problem, though, if he even bothers to read it. I am contemplating allowing him a complete rebuild if he isn't enjoying his character because, being new, I want him to have fun instead of being locked into a character which will always seem or feel inferior.

So here's my question: Is it out of line for me as a GM to ask a player to retcon his character's race and class after he's played it for two sessions? Is it too strict of me to ask him to do these things if he's sort of attached to the idea? What do you GMs typically do when you have players who want to do weird things?

[Daedalus the Dungeon Builder]

Let him find one of these.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

I usually only have minmaxing Players in my Group (I do it too I admit) so I appreciate flavor builds.

This however seems more like a mixture of bad decisions than flavor, so I would just tell him everything that is suboptimal and offer him to rebuild.

When you take the 2 vs. >40 damage gap into account, I think he will gladly take that offer and might be grateful for advice. If he doesn't want, you can't make him. He will regret it rather soon, when he starts falling behind even more. Maybe renew the advice then :P

[Chengar Qordath]

If the guy doesn't like how his character's working out, a rebuild is the best way to fix the problem. Making someone play a character they're not happy with is almost never a good idea.

[Chess Pwn]

I say you're giving him the option to change stuff and explain why you'd think he'd want to. Then let him choose. If he wants to be useless, he can be useless.

Also, I wouldn't have the levels of the party be different. Have a level the party is at, so that missing a game isn't a permanent setback. had he been level 5 like the others he'd have had significantly more to work with because of bane.

[darkfireslide]

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

I usually only have minmaxing Players in my Group (I do it too I admit) so I appreciate flavor builds.

This however seems more like a mixture of bad decisions than flavor, so I would just tell him everything that is suboptimal and offer him to rebuild.

When you take the 2 vs. >40 damage gap into account, I think he will gladly take that offer and might be grateful for advice. If he doesn't want, you can't make him. He will regret it rather soon, when he starts falling behind even more. Maybe renew the advice then :P

I wouldn't say we minmax, but we build characters that make sense, like archers with the appropriate ranged feats. It's not his fault for not realizing that crossbows are pretty bad in the hands of anything other than the Bolt Ace archetype for Gunslingers (they add their Dexterity to damage), but I guess I should have taken a more active role in helping him build his character. I don't want to take his character away from him, but the way he's played so far would be better suited to a Fighter, since all he does is shoot arrows at things and use his racial Burning Hands spell.

[darkfireslide]

Chess Pwn wrote:

I say you're giving him the option to change stuff and explain why you'd think he'd want to. Then let him choose. If he wants to be useless, he can be useless.

Also, I wouldn't have the levels of the party be different. Have a level the party is at, so that missing a game isn't a permanent setback. had he been level 5 like the others he'd have had significantly more to work with because of bane.

Well, I like to use experience, but I agree that as a low level player, being a level behind can be difficult in a campaign designed for veteran players. While having bane would be great, part of the problem is that as a new player all he really knows how to do is shoot his bow every round- something better suited to a ranger or, even better, just a plain Fighter. The spells and abilities are overwhelming him, I think, whether or not he wants to admit it.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

which is totally understandable for a new Player

Inquisitor is way too complicated for someone who is not into Pen & paper or has the entitlement to look into things. He probably shys away from Magic because it's so difficult to oversee, and archery and a fix racial ability seem more comfortable.

[_Ozy_]

Hand him a high STR fighter with a two-handed sword and power attack. Simple + damage.

[Rhaleroad]

Also 40dmg in 1 rnd from a lvl 5 ninja is a good rnd. Even with Vanish it is only +20 Stealth, people get a Perception Check and sounds like he was in the open so doesn't get too add any of his Stealth bonus. Then he had to wait a round to get a full round attack. Spend another ki point to add an attack. Most likely he was duel wielding, for -2 per attack, but the flanking offset that. So not a great bonus too hit, but some great rolls, then adding 3d6 dmg per hit. Guessing about 13 per hit, now in most situations, this is not happening. There will be a ton of times with no flanking, spotted through vanish, mobs with concealment, move and single attack rounds. Then he will be doing 1d8+2, with less to hit bonus than an Inquisitor with Judgments/Divine Favor/Bane.

The one level makes a bit of difference, but the situation was also a great reason for that damage boost. Took multiple rounds, missed spot checks, a flanking buddy, and at least 2 Ki points and they do not have many of those per day. Also that ninja would have been eating attacks if he hadn't killed those guys.

Issues like this come up a lot, a well rolled Fireball with a bunch of saves, DR when one person has the right weapon and others don't, any form of concealment vs that sneak attack that does not effect. Let him know that there will be times when the balance shifts. Bane will be one of those, heck just the bonus damage and the enhancement bonus will kick him higher than everyone vs DR. Also nothing is immune to Bane, things are immune to Sneaks and Crits.

[Kileanna]

I aggree with ChessPwn. Let him choose how many changes he wants to do to his character, if any. His race might be suboptimal, but that doesn't mean he cannot make it work.
Even if he is a bit unexperienced you can help him to understand his character better. Give him a list of good spells to start so he is not overwhelmed and let him know the basics before getting into more complicated stuff. Give him a list of good feats instead of a full list so he doesn't lfeel confused between too many options.
I have a new player in my game who is playing a druid, I'm doing this and it's working.
Also, make sure that he understand that damage is not everything. Inquisitors can buff, heal, etc. In combat, ninjas just deal damage. Even if the ninja's damage imput is high (and, having played a ninja I can say that it has a very variable damage imput) the Inquisitor has a lot of resources that he can enjoy using both in combat and out of combat.
Let him understand that the game is not a competition against other player but a team game.

[Sundakan]

Just a note, making him play a lower level character than everyone else doesn't really help matters. Particularly when you've gimped him by shutting him off a level behind his biggest damage booster (Bane).

Inquisitors when played right are one of the most devastatingly versatile and combat ready classes in the game. Much better than a Ninja (which is one of the weakest classes in the game, though better than a core Rogue).

Problem is, Inquisitors, as you've noticed, require a LOT of resource management and understanding of the rules to make work.

I'm going to go ahead assuming he wants to keep playing this character, not do a full rebuild, and you can look at the general assumptions for what an Inquisitor is tooling around with active at any one time and try to pass that on.

Your standard 5th level archer Inquisitor is gonna be tooling around with a longbow. He apparently has a 14 Str and 16 Dex which is...not great, but workable.

So, at a base level with his Masterwork bow and 16 Dex he's going to be at +3 BaB, +3 Dex, +1 weapon at a base level. He likely has Point Bank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot as his Feats. So, a total of +6 to-hit with two arrows. Not too shabby. Not great either, but not too terrible.

He's throwing two arrows a round downrange for 1d8+3 apiece. Average of 15 damage. This IS too shabby.

Cool part comes in with buffs.

Start with Bane. At this level, reserved for the tough fights since you've only got 5 rounds, but at high levels with Greater Bane and a Bane Baldric you're using this every round. This adds 2d6+2 to every hit, and +2 to every attack roll. So now he's looking at +8 to-hit and 1d8+2d6+5 (average of 33 damage if both arrows hit)

Then, for the boss fight, he's got Judgement. He's probably going to want the attack rolls option. Add another +2.

This is discounting buffs. At low levels your options are pretty meh. Divine Favor, Wrath, and Bless.

As you crawl higher, however, you have access to most of the self-buffing spells in the game. Stuff like Heroism. And at low levels you can identify the boss room, throw down Divine Favor, Weapon of Awe, and Bless, then Wrath it up on the boss and rip his sorry ass a new one.

However, and this is really the take away: At low levels you kinda suck without buffs. Your job as an Inquisitor at low levels:

1.) SEE EVERYTHING. KNOW EVERYTHING. You have tons of skill points, a high Wis, and bonuses to monster skills. You should be up to date on all your monster knowledges, as well as Perception, Survival, and Sense Motive. Split ranks in Survival and Sense Motive if you can't afford a 14 Int, but still.

2.) F+~* THIS GUY IN PARTICULAR. That fully buffed Inquisitor (even with a meh stat allocation) is throwing down +15 to-hit and 1d8+2d6+11 on each shot to that one man you really need to go away forever. Given your class abilities and that you're an archer, you need to try real hard not to win Initiative, know everything about the enemy, MAYBE spend a round buffing if you couldn't pre-buff (though with a Ninja specced into heavy stealth use, you should have a good scouting system down)

At higher levels you slowly layer more stuff on the buff pile, and that stuff has a longer duration so you can stay prebuffed and have most of this stuff active for most of your fights, and you have buffs that give you extra senses and defenses so you can see and negate danger better, and etc., etc.

The upshot to all this is: If your player is up to accepting that A.) He sucks now unless he blows a bunch of spells and B.) He needs to do a bit of class research and actually USE all of his abilities, he CAN do that much damage. And more. Ninjas aren't exactly powerhouse damage dealers.

Side note: If he wants to be a bit more like the Ninja and just wants damage, show him the Sanctified Slayer archetype. He loses Judgement for Studied Target and some Sneak Attack.

[darkfireslide]

Kileanna wrote:

I aggree with ChessPwn. Let him choose how many changes he wants to do to his character, if any. His race might be suboptimal, but that doesn't mean he cannot make it work.

Even if he is a bit unexperienced you can help him to understand his character better. Give him a list of good spells to start so he is not overwhelmed and let him know the basics before getting into more complicated stuff. Give him a list of good feats instead of a full list so he doesn't lfeel confused between too many options.
I have a new player in my game who is playing a druid, I'm doing this and it's working.
Also, make sure that he understand that damage is not everything. Inquisitors can buff, heal, etc. In combat, ninjas just deal damage. Even if the ninja's damage imput is high (and, having played a ninja I can say that it has a very variable damage imput) the Inquisitor has a lot of resources that he can enjoy using both in combat and out of combat.
Let him understand that the game is not a competition against other player but a team game.

Yes, and one thing we did try to explain is that the Ninja is also quite squishy with their d8 hit die; of course, this only went so far because the Inquisitor's Con is 12, and he also has a d8 hit die and chose skill points instead of HP each level.

I did attempt in the guide I sent him to explain that he has quite a repertoire of abilities available to him as an Inquisitor, as well as recommending spells, feats, and abilities to use to make himself better in and out of combat. He also picked up rapid shot this level, which will certainly help even if he just wants to do nothing but shoot things with his bow.

[darkfireslide]

@Sundakan, I recognize these things about the Inquisitor after reading about it and made a guide with recommendations on spells to choose, which abilities to use, and how to use them, including mentioning that now at 5th level he can do like 2d8+12+4d6 damage in a round if both his shots connect with rapid shot and he has the right buffs on with Bane. My concern is that the Inquisitor is very complicated even though I realize it is quite strong. It's ironic that a strong character sees a weaker character doing decent damage without realizing that he himself is already that strong.

As for the level, while he is a new player, it's also an incentive to keep him showing up. If everyone is the same level regardless, it seems less fair to everyone who always shows up. But maybe I'll bump him up or give him some bonus exp so he's not so behind.

But anyway, my concern is that the problem will continue because, as a newer player, he won't take the time to actually learn the class to play it. Which means he'll still just be a second class archer because he's not using his immense repertoire of abilities, and if he doesn't want to learn magic, he might as well play a Fighter, I guess. Which, I know, from a minmaxing perspective isn't fantastic, but it would be better for how he's playing the class.

I mean, the new guy didn't bother to read about the class at all. He only knew how to do Cure Light Wounds and make attack rolls. And that is really, really bad for an Inquisitor. I probably wouldn't have let him play the class if I had had a more active hand in him making his character (just like I probably would have restricted him to core races as well). I didn't know much about the class and figured he and the Ninja could handle learning the character. Clearly this was a mistake on my part. I understand the class now, but that just makes me worried more that he will basically just be a second class archer for the rest of the campaign. I gave him the option to rebuild, but I guess we'll see what happens.

As a side note, can anyone tell me classes apart from like Fighters and Sorcerers that are good for newer players? It seems like in Pathfinder most classes have a bigger learning curve from before and I'm not sure what to recommend to people.

[Kileanna]

About the level issue, in previous games I made the players that didn't come be lower level. The result was that they weren't as effective as high level characters, got frustrated and stopped coming at all.
Now I just let them out of the loot, but they keep leveling up with the rest of the party. Losing the oportunity of gaining some cool treasure is enough motivation to keep them coming and not as punitive as making them be lower level.

My favorite class for beginners is the Ranger. It has a lot of things to do outside combat, deals fair amount of damage, has some simple spells to learn the basics of magic and is very easy to play.

[Sundakan]

darkfireslide wrote:

@Sundakan, I recognize these things about the Inquisitor after reading about it and made a guide with recommendations on spells to choose, which abilities to use, and how to use them, including mentioning that now at 5th level he can do like 2d8+12+4d6 damage in a round if both his shots connect with rapid shot and he has the right buffs on with Bane. My concern is that the Inquisitor is very complicated even though I realize it is quite strong. It's ironic that a strong character sees a weaker character doing decent damage without realizing that he himself is already that strong.

It's not really irony, it's the difference between a skill floor and a skill ceiling. The Rogue has a very low skill floor, and a very low skill ceiling. I.E it takes very little effort to take a Ninja to its highest natural potential (the ceiling) and also very hard to completely screw up, because your whole class is pretty much handed to you (the floor).

Inquisitor, on the flipside, has a relatively high floor (not super high, but higher compared to a Ninja, Rogue, Ranger, etc.) and a much higher skill ceiling.

What this translates to is a very powerful class (if you build it right) that is very easy to f##! up and leave as barely more useful than a Commoner.

darkfireslide wrote:

As for the level, while he is a new player, it's also an incentive to keep him showing up. If everyone is the same level regardless, it seems less fair to everyone who always shows up. But maybe I'll bump him up or give him some bonus exp so he's not so behind.

S#@# happens, people need to miss sessions due to work, illnesses, family emergencies, car trouble, conflicting obligations, etc., etc. Punishing someone for having a life isn't the way to go about things.

All it's going to do is, instead of incentivizing people to show up (which...getting to come and play a fun game is their incentive already, is it not?) it's going to disincentivize people to join or KEEP showing up. You're going to make them feel bad because their toddler has a fever, their transmission is shot, or they have to work the graveyard shift the day of your session and on top of all that s$&$ now they're a level and loot behind.

Sorry if that sounded too much like a lecture, I've just never seen that turn out well. Best case scenario someone gets sulky. Worst case, the group breaks apart.

darkfireslide wrote:

But anyway, my concern is that the problem will continue because, as a newer player, he won't take the time to actually learn the class to play it. Which means he'll still just be a second class archer because he's not using his immense repertoire of abilities, and if he doesn't want to learn magic, he might as well play a Fighter, I guess. Which, I know, from a minmaxing perspective isn't fantastic, but it would be better for how he's playing the class.

I mean, the new guy didn't bother to read about the class at all. He only knew how to do Cure Light Wounds and make attack rolls. And that is really, really bad for an Inquisitor. I probably wouldn't have let him play the class if I had had a more active hand in him making his character (just like I probably would have restricted him to core races as well). I didn't know much about the class and figured he and the Ninja could handle learning the character. Clearly this was a mistake on my part. I understand the class now, but that just makes me worried more that he will basically just be a second class archer for the rest of the campaign. I gave him the option to rebuild, but I guess we'll see what happens.

This is a separate problem. Not wanting to read the rulebook (or, at least, the parts that pertain to you and your character) is a bad sign for your continued interest in the game.

Then again, it's quite possible with a class like this that he read it and then forgot them. Compare/contrast the Inquisitor to a Ranger (a good beginner class with a loooooooooooooooooooooowwwwww skill floor and a moderate skill ceiling).

Inquisitor, 1st level: Domain, judgment, monster lore, stern gaze, spellcasting. Two of these abilities (Domain and spellcasting/Orisons) require you to make choices from a huge list of options.

Ranger, first level: Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy. Two less abilities. Only one has to be chosen from a list, and that is a small-ish list that can (and should) be significantly narrowed by the GM telling you viable choices for the game.

Inquisitor 2: Cunning initiative, Detect Alignment, Track More fiddly bits. Fiddly bit counter: 8

Ranger 2: Combat Style (and Feat). Pick a fighting Style, here are some Feats to guide you on how to make a reasonably good user of that style. Fiddly bit counter: 3

You get the picture.

darkfireslide wrote:

As a side note, can anyone tell me classes apart from like Fighters and Sorcerers that are good for newer players? It seems like in Pathfinder most classes have a bigger learning curve from before and I'm not sure what to recommend to people.

The aforementioned Ranger, and his Slayer cousin. I'd recommend them above Fighter, as they are both stronger AND easier to play.

Paladin, Barbarian, Brawler, and Swashbuckler are all also decent.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

darkfireslide wrote:

As a side note, can anyone tell me classes apart from like Fighters and Sorcerers that are good for newer players? It seems like in Pathfinder most classes have a bigger learning curve from before and I'm not sure what to recommend to people.

Guide archetype Ranger. You trade out favored enemy for an x/day +y to attack and damage vs a designated target. Still get the ranger's bonus feats. Loses the animal companion (so you don't have to worry about tracking it too) for extra bonuses in his favored terrains.

[SmiloDan]

Ranger and Slayer are the best classes for newbies. Lots of skills, and a good introduction to a lot of rules sub-sets (combat styles and bonus feats, spells, pets, creature and terrain types, etc.)

I would strongly suggest rebuilding the character to be a ranger. They can be good at archery, tracking, have 6 skills per level, and have a small list of divine spells. Very similar to the inquisitor. Maybe sneak in Iron Will if he was relying on Good Will Saves. Also better BAB, so he can hit more often. Maybe give him the Deadly Aim feat, so he can do more damage. Pick or guide his choice of Favored Enemy to be useful for your campaign. He can choose the Hunter's Bond that grants half his Favored Enemy bonus to his allies to simulate Teamwork Feats.

I played with a DM (in 3.5) who made a swashbuckler/ranger for his wife, but after several sessions, she got rebuilt as a ranger archer, and she was much happier. The character stayed the same (a fish-obsessed catfolk), but the mechanics were easier and matched the play/fighting style of the player (stand back and shoot stuff).

Rebuilding the mechanics and keeping the fluff is one of the best ways to enhance a new player's experience.

[Kileanna]

And one of the things I really love about Pathfinder is that you can make a character concept match so many different classes and archetypes.
When I played 3.X I often felt like there wasn't a single class that matched perfectly what I had in mind.
Now in Pathfinder I never had that issue.

[SmiloDan]

The Guide archetype for ranger is also really great for newbies--if they don't get confused by the whole archetype concept.

[HWalsh]

Rhaleroad wrote:

Also 40dmg in 1 rnd from a lvl 5 ninja is a good rnd. Even with Vanish it is only +20 Stealth, people get a Perception Check and sounds like he was in the open so doesn't get too add any of his Stealth bonus. Then he had to wait a round to get a full round attack.

Minor point, but... Nope. Can't do that. He's hidden, he declares attack, that starts the surprise round.

Characters who can act in the surprise round get to make one standard action. They cannot make a full round action.

Quote:

Spend another ki point to add an attack. Most likely he was duel wielding, for -2 per attack, but the flanking offset that.

See above. None of that can happen.

What has to happen is the guy has to stealth. Someone else has to trigger the surprise round. The ninja must not attack. Then he must attack while the for is distracted in the 1st round after the surprise round.

[Steelfiredragon]

up his class stats and move on....

[Sundakan]

HWalsh wrote:

Rhaleroad wrote:

Also 40dmg in 1 rnd from a lvl 5 ninja is a good rnd. Even with Vanish it is only +20 Stealth, people get a Perception Check and sounds like he was in the open so doesn't get too add any of his Stealth bonus. Then he had to wait a round to get a full round attack.

Minor point, but... Nope. Can't do that. He's hidden, he declares attack, that starts the surprise round.

Characters who can act in the surprise round get to make one standard action. They cannot make a full round action.

Quote:

Spend another ki point to add an attack. Most likely he was duel wielding, for -2 per attack, but the flanking offset that.

See above. None of that can happen.

What has to happen is the guy has to stealth. Someone else has to trigger the surprise round. The ninja must not attack. Then he must attack while the for is distracted in the 1st round after the surprise round.

The stealth here is irrelevant as far as I can tell, from the description it looks like he's turning invisible as a Swift and then Sneak Attacking.

It IS worth noting that this only gives him one Sneak Attack. If you, GM, were letting him Sneak Attack for the whole round because he went invisible, that shouldn't be the case. The first attack gets SA because of Concealment but the subsequent attacks are normal. The 40 damage figure was bugging me but I didn't really pay attention until now. Even with 3 attacks unless they all crit, without Sneak Attack he's not hitting 40.

[Kileanna]

If the enemy hasn't had any action still and he's caught by surprise shouldn't it be considered flat-footed until he is able to take an action?

[Sundakan]

True, I forgot about that. Been playing 5e recently and just got used to that game NOT having a Flatfooted condition.

[HWalsh]

Kileanna wrote:

If the enemy hasn't had any action still and he's caught by surprise shouldn't it be considered flat-footed until he is able to take an action?

It's iffy.

So, here's how it goes down:

(If combat hasn't started yet.)

Ninja Stealths in, moves into position, then declares his intention to attack. Initiative is rolled. The Ninja attacks and round one ends.

If the Ninja won initiative and acts before his target then, yes, the target is still flat footed until he takes a regular action. Thus the Ninja can get a full attack action off with full sneak attack bonuses.

----

That is pretty much the only way to do it.

See, turning invisible, as per vanish, then attacking a target... Doesn't give sneak attack.

The target is aware of the Ninja, he just doesn't know where he is, nor is he flat footed, unless it is the first round and the target has not acted.

You can only be "unaware" at the start of a battle.

----

The other way is just to flank the target and full attack.

[Kileanna]

Exactly how I thought it worked. I've been playing a ninja and it worked like you are saying.
That's why I tried to have the higher initiative roll possible only to use it on my first round. Then I delayed my actions until the bards buffed and the fighter flanked with me so I could keep sneak attacking. I found it to be really effective.
Sometimes, with some enemies, I just possitioned myself near and didn't attack until the Fighter had attacked because if I am the only one in melee range with the enemy I risk too much and I'd rather wait until the Fighter is with me too.

[necromental]

HWalsh wrote:

See, turning invisible, as per vanish, then attacking a target... Doesn't give sneak attack.

The target is aware of the Ninja, he just doesn't know where he is, nor is he flat footed, unless it is the first round and the target has not acted.

You can only be "unaware" at the start of a battle.

Um, nope. Combat modifiers specifically state you lose your Dex to an invisible assailant (and he gains +2 to hit you). Of course, when he attacks he turns visible (unless it's greater invisibility) and he doesn't have the same advantage on subsequent attacks.

[Cyrad]

I let my players rebuild all the time. We usually turn it into a story thing. The ifrit monk respeccing to a suli revealed some very scandalous information about her mother's heritage.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Cyrad wrote:

I let my players rebuild all the time. We usually turn it into a story thing. The ifrit monk respeccing to a suli revealed some very scandalous information about her mother's heritage.

Everyone gets to rebuild? Sounds fun.

[Red Metal]

HWalsh wrote:

That is pretty much the only way to do it.

See, turning invisible, as per vanish, then attacking a target... Doesn't give sneak attack.

You're wrong

PRD wrote:

An invisible creature ... ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC

[Firewarrior44]

Red Metal wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

That is pretty much the only way to do it.

See, turning invisible, as per vanish, then attacking a target... Doesn't give sneak attack.

You're wrong

PRD wrote:

An invisible creature ... ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC

Adding to this:

Sneak Attack wrote:

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Attacking before they act works as does invisibility as it specifically denies dexterity.

However using stealth in combat (once the enemy is aware of you) and then attacking does not give sneak attack. As attacking out of stealth does not explicitly deny the opponents dexterity to AC (as far as I am aware) which might be what HWalsh is thinking of.

[HWalsh]

Red Metal wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

That is pretty much the only way to do it.

See, turning invisible, as per vanish, then attacking a target... Doesn't give sneak attack.

You're wrong

PRD wrote:

An invisible creature ... ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC

Not wrong so much as it was super early in the morning. I should have written, "Doesn't make them unaware."

[Chemlak]

I could start an argument in rules questions about how invisibility lets you ignore the target's Dex to AC, but doesn't deny the target their Dex to AC, and therefore invisibility doesn't meet the criteria for sneak attacks...

But I won't.

[darkfireslide]

To answer everyone's question about the Ninja sneak attacking and doing so much damage, here's the math.

He was flanking an opponent with the NPC cleric, so he gets his sneak attack. He two-weapon fights with a Katana (He uses something called like an effortless ribbon(ultimate equipment I think) to make it a light weapon) and +1 Shocking Wakizashi (I rolled random loot for an impromptu session to save time and ended up getting a random minor loot roll--two consecutive 100's, and then rolled the shocking property from the loot generation in the core rulebook; I thought it would be a nice reward, if a bit powerful for the level), both of which have an 18-20 crit range. I don't remember if he crit or not, but he did hit his two attacks from two-weapon fighting and then used his swift action to get another swing.

As a 5th level Ninja, since all three flanking attacks hit, with the Shocking Wakizashi, he dealt a base of about 1d8+2d6+2+2d6+9d6, or 16-70 damage. Without the shocking, that's still 14-56 damage without a critical hit, though since his strength is a whopping 10 (as a Kitsune), a crit is only an extra d6 of damage anyway.

As for sneak attacking, invisibility does technically proc a sneak attack on the first attack if the opponent doesn't see you (as I ruled it), and midway through the session resolved that only one such sneak attack counts. Given that he can only use about 6-7 ki points a day, I don't see this as being overpowered or anything--by both of the final combats for each dungeon of the day, I asked if he went back to stealth at one point, only to hear "I'm out of points," which is a lovely thing to hear as a GM, honestly.

As for the Inquisitor, if he wants to rebuild I will suggest to him to play a Ranger or Slayer instead if he doesn't want to learn the class. I will also stop penalizing him for not showing up in terms of experience. Thanks to everyone for all the good input. I admit that it was my fault for not taking a larger part in helping him build his character and leaving it to one of my players instead.

[Sundakan]

HWalsh wrote:

Red Metal wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

That is pretty much the only way to do it.

See, turning invisible, as per vanish, then attacking a target... Doesn't give sneak attack.

You're wrong

PRD wrote:

An invisible creature ... ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC

Not wrong so much as it was super early in the morning. I should have written, "Doesn't make them unaware."

Which IS actually relevant in some cases, to be fair. The Vigilante has a few abilities that only work on unaware targets and IIRC so does the Assassinate ability (which the Ninja CAN get).

darkfireslide wrote:

To answer everyone's question about the Ninja sneak attacking and doing so much damage, here's the math.

He was flanking an opponent with the NPC cleric, so he gets his sneak attack. He two-weapon fights with a Katana (He uses something called like an effortless ribbon(ultimate equipment I think) to make it a light weapon)

Just so he knows, this is a waste of money. As long as your OFF HAND is a Light weapon, you don't take the larger penalties to TWFing, so making the Katana Light and then using it in your main hand is absolutely pointless.

He's also probably going to feel the pain later when he realizes that for that extra +1 average damage he's going to need multiple Weapon Focus or Improved Critical or whatever Feats to complete his build because he's using two different weapons.

[Ravingdork]

The shocking didn't get multiplied on the crit did it? Bonus dice of damage never multiplies unless specifically called out as doing such.

[Torbyne]

I just started a thread the other day about how my inquisitor character is one of the most complex i have played and i've been doing this thing for a hot minute already... but its also an absurdly competent class that can buff up a little to be good at most things or buff hard and get some scary bursts of damage. At level 6 and a round of prep my inquisitor is averaging +17 to hit, for 2D4+26 but that comes at a cost of burning through three limited resource pools. And i dont even have a magic weapon for the character yet.

I would suggest letting your player pick up the Sanctified Slayer archetype as its easier to use than a base Inquisitor and, in my opinion, a better ability than judgement anyways. Trade out a limited per day and limited benefit buff for an unlimited use boost to hit/damage and skills.

What is their deity? what is their domain/inquisition? There are some good gods to choose from for neat weapons (bastard sword or tsesubo are my favorites) and there are a ton of domains or inquisitions to look at for buffing combat or adding versatility.

To answer the question you actually asked, along the same lines as let everyone be the same level, the game is about having fun and even if it was an effective combat ending character, if the player isnt having fun with it than you should talk to them about what you or they could change to make it fun again. If you think the other players will be upset than talk to them about it too, immersion is all well and good but fun should be a higher priority.

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

I'm biased, but if he likes playing a ranged Character, consider showing him a Zen Archer. They don't beat out the properly maxed inquisitor, but they get pretty close, are much easier to manage, and have plenty of fun options (especially if he's starting at lvl 5). The are both solid DPR and tough as nails if mobs try to target them. And all but a couple of your most important feats are hand picked for you to either gain automatically or as bonus feats.

[wraithstrike]

It may not have been mentioned but unlike in 3.5 you don't get to catch up in XP so being a level behind means you stay behind.

That is one reason why I stopped having people not be a level behind for missing sessions.

The next question might be "why do you give out free xp".

I don't use XP.

[darkfireslide]

@Sundakan, I'm not sure why he bought a katana instead of another Wakizashi and I completely agree. Maybe he did it for flavor.

@Ravingdork, the shocking didn't get multiplied. The 2d6 is from the wakizashi hitting twice and the 9d6 is from his 3d6 sneak attack hitting 3 times.

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

Sundakan wrote:

darkfireslide wrote:

To answer everyone's question about the Ninja sneak attacking and doing so much damage, here's the math.

He was flanking an opponent with the NPC cleric, so he gets his sneak attack. He two-weapon fights with a Katana (He uses something called like an effortless ribbon(ultimate equipment I think) to make it a light weapon)

Just so he knows, this is a waste of money. As long as your OFF HAND is a Light weapon, you don't take the larger penalties to TWFing, so making the Katana Light and then using it in your main hand is absolutely pointless.

He's also probably going to feel the pain later when he realizes that for that extra +1 average damage he's going to need multiple Weapon Focus or Improved Critical or whatever Feats to complete his build because he's using two different weapons.

If I'm understanding it right, the Ninja uses TWF with a Katana with a Effortless Lace and a random loot drop Wakizashi. In this case it probably is needed on the Katana, not only to be able to TWF with the light off hand (which the Katana might be if he's using the shocking Wakizashi primary... I would), but also to make it usable with Weapon Finesse (He previously mentioned the Ninja only has STR=10) So he's likely using dex to hit. The Character was probably intending to TWF with Dual Katana's, but got a pretty impressive Wakizashi that is good enough to use for a while until he gets additional feats or can afford to make a better Katana.

To the GM, I do suggest you make sure you know where items are coming from so you can keep track of what they do. The item in question (Effortless Lace) is from Giant Hunter's Handbook, and is powerful (overpowered) enough that it's been specifically excluded from PFS play.

[Sundakan]

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

If I'm understanding it right, the Ninja uses TWF with a Katana with a Effortless Lace and a random loot drop Wakizashi. In this case it probably is needed on the Katana, not only to be able to TWF with the light off hand (which the Katana might be if he's using the shocking Wakizashi primary... I would), but also to make it usable with Weapon Finesse (He previously mentioned the Ninja only has STR=10) So he's likely using dex to hit. The Character was probably intending to TWF with Dual Katana's, but got a pretty impressive Wakizashi that is good enough to use for a while until he gets additional feats or can afford to make a better Katana.

I should stop commenting on things late at night or immediately after waking up.

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

To the GM, I do suggest you make sure you know where items are coming from so you can keep track of what they do. The item in question (Effortless Lace) is from Giant Hunter's Handbook, and is powerful (overpowered) enough that it's been specifically excluded from PFS play.

Being banned in PFS isn't really an indicator that it's too powerful. PFS dislikes certain playstyles, particularly Dex based ones and defensive styles. Most things are banned for either flavor reasons (see: Vivisectionist) or in the interest of keeping build variety within manageable bounds.

[Chengar Qordath]

Sundakan wrote:

Being banned in PFS isn't really an indicator that it's too powerful. PFS dislikes certain playstyles, particularly Dex based one and defensive styles. Most things are banned for either flavor reasons (see: Vivisectionist) or in the interest of keeping build variety within manageable bounds.

Just going to second this. PFS tends to demand simple, straightforward builds that work in the new-group-every-game format of PFS. Basically, anything with iffy flavor, complicate, or likely to cause table variance is likely to get the banhammer. Plus, as mentioned, defensive boosts tend to get targeted because they can mess with encounter design: that's why Crane Style got multiple nerfs.

[Torbyne]

For what it does, Effortless lace is a high cost to add an average of 1 damage to your offhand in TWF or lets you use weapon finesse with a lot more weapons, often ones that often are associated with dexterity such as the katana. How strength or dexterity would actually apply in the real world usually follows such statements though and wouldnt add much to the original question. Since it doesnt let you add DEX to damage the pay off isnt that great. A Ninja already has a sub par BAB with no build in accuracy booster so going TWF can be problematic later on.

[Rhaleroad]

So nice to post and see someone say you are totally wrong, that assuming he was flanking, duel wielding and used a ki point for the extra attack was wrong and that this was all due too a surprise round...then to see that is exactly what happened. Saying "none of that can happen" is just rude, get some facts before you start being a jerk with your replies. Granted I doubt any of use guessed that he had overpowered gear for his level, but still, if the inquisitor catches up in level/gear, some of the issues will go away.

[darkfireslide]

I don't personally see a problem with the Effortless Lace since Ninjas are sort of underpowered anyway. I'm fine with him cranking out damage like he has been, because a third level Barbarian he fought hit him for like 21 with a Greataxe and brought him, a 5th level character, down to half health. The Ninja has also talked about picking up that Dex-based Power Attack (Prawna Strike?) and enchanting a weapon to deal damage with his Dex modifier, but these don't seem that overpowered still since a simpler build with a Barbarian or pretty much any spellcaster is probably just as, if not more effective. There's also the issue that since he's two-weapon fighting that his attack bonus will really start to lag behind later, as someone mentioned, especially if he's power attacking. As a side note, given that 3 out of the 4 party members use Dexterity as a primary stat, I wonder what throwing a Belt of Dexterity into the mix would do...

I also tend to design my final encounters to be rough but fair and challenging, going about 2 or 3 CRs above the party but with numerous monsters to make it more interesting. Since the Ninja and our Gunslinger are both veteran players, they quite enjoy these challenging combats, and as such I'm happy to give them the option to build well because even an intensify spell Magus would still find a decent challenge in my dungeons because of the encounter design (Free idea, by the way- a 30ft slick wooden fort wall that has to be climbed or approached by stairs inside the gate while 8 archers pepper the players with low cover from crenellations- where's your shocking grasp now?). I like to encourage good but open build types, though like most GMs would also prefer not to have stuff like the intensify spell Magus. However, this also sucks for the new guy because he isn't doing all the things that make his character great.

As a side note, I love Pathfinder's combats. They're more varied and intense thanks to the stronger character classes and additional feats. Our Gunslinger finally picked up Deadly Aim along with his 5th level Dex to damage from the class, and is a force to be reckoned with. I wish I could play more myself, but am perfectly happy to GM it as well. That being said I also really need to catch up on the new classes... like the Inquisitor, who now I at least have a decent understanding of.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I agree with everyone who says to keep the levels the same. When on character is less powerful than the rest of the group it makes it less likely they will show up because they are frustrated with their character. When I started reading the post I figured it would be about the inquisitor being overpowered instead of underpowered. The inquisitor is a very powerful class but does not come into his own until 5th level. They can be complex to play but not as bad as it seems.

Inquisitors are spontaneous casters so he does not need to know his entire spell list just the spells he knows. The thing is that a poor choice of spells can really weaken the character. With a prepared caster you simply memorize different spells tomorrow. Good spells for him will be divine favor, and true strike for fist level spells. Blistering Invective and Invisibility make good second level spells. If you use traits go for fate favored to boost up divine favor and latter divine power.

The character seems to be very poorly designed and should be allowed to be rewritten. With a gunslinger you don’t really need another character focused on ranged combat. The nice thing about the inquisitor is that none of his abilities are tied to any particular combat style. They get simple weapons most ranged weapons and their deities favored weapon. Make sure his deity has a good melee weapon and have carry both it and a long bow. Make sure to change his race. A Dwarf or a human will work well with inquisitor. A human gives him an extra feat and flexible stat bonus. A dwarf gives him some decent weapons and a lot of other abilities.

For his teamwork feat take precise strike and he can take advantage of flanking with the ninja. Combining precise strike with bane will give him +3d6 to damage, which is what the ninja is getting.

[Cyrad]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

I let my players rebuild all the time. We usually turn it into a story thing. The ifrit monk respeccing to a suli revealed some very scandalous information about her mother's heritage.

Everyone gets to rebuild? Sounds fun.

Yep. I have to approve the rebuild, but I allow it if a player asks for it. My biggest restriction is that the character must be reasonably close enough to the original concept, and that the new build doesn't go into effect until there's downtime. I also allow retraining, but unlike the Ultimate Campaign rules, you cannot retrain an option in exchange for something you woudn't have been able to get at that level. For example, you can't swap the Toughness feat you got at 1st level for Improved Critical.

I allow rebuilding so players can keep their characters fun and fresh in the event something doesn't pan out or their character gets stale. This is crucial since I tend to run longterm campaigns. My current campaign has lasted 4 and a half years.

[PK the Dragon]

I allow characters to be a level behind, but only because of death and rerolling characters. I want death to be a real danger that means something in my Rappan Athuk game.

Using XP also allows me to customize rewards slightly, which is important when there's puzzles that occasionally reward one character with bonus XP. Which there are in Rappan Athuk, though they're fairly rare.

That said, I don't penalize XP for not showing up. That just seems counter productive.