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The Irorian Cleric - Build advice.


Advice

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Sovereign Court

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Restrictions: PFS

I've been toying with the idea of an Irorian Cleric that mimics the combat effectiveness of a Monk while still having the benefits of a being a Cleric.

The Evangelist Evangelist:

Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor)

Starting stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 15 (17 with racial stat boost)
Cha: 7

1) Evangelist Cleric 1: Bab +0, Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed Strike (lvl 1), TWF (human)
2) Evangelist Cleric 2: Bab +1,
3) Evangelist Cleric 3: Bab +2, Boar Style(lvl 3)
4) Evangelist Cleric 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Evangelist Cleric 5: Bab +3, Deific Obedience (lvl 5)
6) Evangelist Prestige 1: Bab +3,
7) Evangelist Prestige 2: Bab +4, Quicken Metamagic (lvl 7)
8) Evangelist Prestige 3: Bab +5, +1 Dex
9) Evangelist Prestige 4: Bab +6/+1, ITWF (lvl 9)
10) Evangelist Prestige 5: Bab +6/+1
11) Evangelist Prestige 6: Bab +7/+2, Divine Interference (lvl 11)

Boar Style switched to Pummeling Style at 9th level.

Vanilla Cleric:

Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor)

Starting stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 15 (17 with racial stat boost)
Cha: 7

1) Cleric 1: Bab +0, Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed Strike (lvl 1), TWF (human)
2) Cleric 2: Bab +1,
3) Cleric 3: Bab +2, Boar Style(lvl 3)
4) Cleric 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Cleric 5: Bab +3, Quickdraw (lvl 5)
6) Exalted 1: Bab +3,
7) Exalted 2: Bab +4, Quicken Metamagic (lvl 7)
8) Exalted 3: Bab +5, +1 Dex
9) Exalted 4: Bab +6/+1, ITWF (lvl 9)
10) Exalted 5: Bab +6/+1
11) Exalted 6: Bab +7/+2, Divine Interference (lvl 11)

Boar Style switched to Pummeling Style at 9th level.
Quickdraw for Quickdraw shield (extra AC).

Exalted Cleric:

Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor)

Starting stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 15 (17 with racial stat boost)
Cha: 7

1) Cleric 1: Bab +0, Focused Study: Knowledge Religion (lvl 1), TWF (human)
2) Cleric 2: Bab +1,
3) Cleric 3: Bab +2, Boar Style(lvl 3)
4) Cleric 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Cleric 5: Bab +3, Deific Obedience (lvl 5)
6) Exalted 1: Bab +3,
7) Exalted 2: Bab +4, Quicken Metamagic (lvl 7)
8) Exalted 3: Bab +5, +1 Dex
9) Exalted 4: Bab +6/+1, ITWF (lvl 9)
10) Exalted 5: Bab +6/+1
11) Exalted 6: Bab +7/+2, Divine Interference (lvl 11)

Boar Style switched to Pummeling Style at 9th level.

Info and Stats:

I'm unsure on which domains to select but Fist domain seems very attractive for both the Evangelist and the Vanilla Cleric builds as that's +5dmg to all attacks and useable as a free action. Bramble armor is also quite nice. For a second domain Heroism looks decent for Heroism spell buff. Is there any other really good domain choices?

Typical combat would be...
1st round: Cast Haste or Righteous Might (standard action), Divine Favor (swift action), if Evangelist-- Inspire Courage (move action 7lvl+)
2nd round: Boar or Pummeling Style (swift action), then Kill stuff

I theorycrafted a Warpriest build but honestly it didn't seem like much benefit doing so. TWF and ITWF along with Haste allows 5 attacks total. Boar Style should be ok till I switch it to Pummeling Style and Pummeling Style should allow me to overcome the majority of DR I run into.

Mock Example of a typical full attack at 9th level -
Attack bonuses: BAB 6/1, +4 Divine Favor, +5 Str (+2str/dex belt & Righteous Might), +1 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +2 Greater Magic Fang, +1 WP (Unarmed), -2 TWF =

Attack Total: 17/17/12/12 or 16/16/16/11/11 if I use Haste instead of Righteous Might.

Damage bonuses: 1d3 unarmed, +5str, +4 Divine Favor, +2 Greater Magic Fang, +5 Wooden Fist, + 2d6 Acid AoMF =

Damage Total: 1d3 + 2d6 + 16dmg x 4 or 5 hits

Heroism spell isn't included (+2atk/+2dmg) and if I went Evangelist that would be another +2atk/+2dmg.

Any suggestions on missing feats, domain choices, or which route looks the best?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

There is a new ascetic oracle, would that be close to your desire?

Sovereign Court

I can't find any information on ascetic Oracle on the internet. I think optimizing the cleric might be the best route.


Why not warpriest or sacred fist on this build?

Scaling weapon damage, out of the box quicken for your divine favor, a lot more combat feat...

If you are just using your divine magic to buff yourself warpriest is a better fit then priest, yes you have less levels, but you can swift action mainline all buffs without it eating into your higher level spells...

Grand Lodge

"Ascetic" Cleric is Kobold Press

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Page 104 Villain Codex has the Oracle Ascetic Mystery.


Ascetic Mystery looks really cool. Something I will have to build sometime.

Sovereign Court

Kris Verschaeve wrote:

Why not warpriest or sacred fist on this build?

Scaling weapon damage, out of the box quicken for your divine favor, a lot more combat feat...

If you are just using your divine magic to buff yourself warpriest is a better fit then priest, yes you have less levels, but you can swift action mainline all buffs without it eating into your higher level spells...

It doesn't eat your high level spells because you don't have any, zero 5th and zero 6th level spells. I'm think swift divine favor should be good enough for swift action buffing.

I didn't really see any blessings that outperformed domains either. Destruction blessing can be a swift action at an expense of a feat but it's a morale bonus to damahlge. Fist or plant domain has an untyped damage bonus as a free action, bramble armor seems good too. The Rage subdomain looks useful also if going Separatist Cleric.

Righteous Might and Transformation (Irori spell) are pretty strong and warpriest will never get those in 1-11 PFS.

Maybe I need some more convincing towards Warpriest though. I'm interested in either an unarmed or quarterstaff build (if going Warpriest). Anyone want to give some well put together example builds?


Per an FAQ that came out some time ago, as a cleric of Irori you get Improved Unarmed Strike for free (As there's no such thing as "Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed Strike".)

Sovereign Court

Dark Midian wrote:
Per an FAQ that came out some time ago, as a cleric of Irori you get Improved Unarmed Strike for free (As there's no such thing as "Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed Strike".)

Sorry, meant Weapon Focus for the extra +1 to hit.


Kysune wrote:
Dark Midian wrote:
Per an FAQ that came out some time ago, as a cleric of Irori you get Improved Unarmed Strike for free (As there's no such thing as "Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed Strike".)
Sorry, meant Weapon Focus for the extra +1 to hit.

You can't take Weapon Focus at 1st level as a cleric. It requires BAB +1.


First, 14 in your primary attack stat is not enough unless punching people is going to be something you do as a secondary role, primary being buffing others or debuffing the enemy with spells perhaps. Yes, you have divine favor, but on its own that just makes up the difference from a martial class (at best). Maybe swap wis & str?

The evangelist version can't actually use quicken spell until a level after they get it. You may be aware of this anyway, just mentioning it.

Irori doesn't actually give the Heroism subdomain (or Plant), that's not an option. I'd be tempted to go with Fist (obvious) and Knowledge; the option to make a good knowledge check (which would benefit from Deific Obedience) is occasionally very useful. Law might be useful if Knowledge doesn't appeal.

I'll see what can be done with a warpriest and get back to you.

Edit: how attached are you to Irori exactly? There's a couple other deities with unarmed strike as a favored weapon.

Sovereign Court

Dark Midian - in that case swap weapon focus with quicken metamagic or something else for 1st level.

AVR - Righteous Might spell and a +2 Str belt helps solve the lowered strength score, bringing my STR score up to 20. The higher Wis score gives me more spell slots to buff and allows my DC saves to still be good if I choose to use spells offensively. I tried a DEX based route but it turned out to be worse than the Str & Wis build.

I'm not 100% attached to Irori. The Perfectionist Shavtoosh from Irori is not deity restricted and grants improved unarmed strike for free, which could let me choose a different deity option.

I want to stick to unarmed strike but would entertain using a Quarter Staff, which I could probably use effectively with a TWF build anyways. Irori does give +4 to all knowledge skills with Deific Obedience and gives access to spells haste & transformation though.

I think Fist domain is a must pick choice but as a Separatist Cleric I could pickup the Rage, Heroism, Growth or etc subdomain as a second domain albeit at -2 effective level.

I must say the warpriest would work well with unarmed strike and quarterstaff damage scaling. But the blessing choices seemed kind of weak, the slowed spell level progression, and 1 less spell slot per level (domain spell slots) are what turns me off when considering warpriest.


Kysune wrote:
AVR - Righteous Might spell and a +2 Str belt helps solve the lowered strength score, bringing my STR score up to 20. The higher Wis score gives me more spell slots to buff and allows my DC saves to still be good if I choose to use spells offensively. I tried a DEX based route but it turned out to be worse than the Str & Wis build.

No, they don't. It's not your strength at level 10 relative to a first level fighter that's the problem, it's your strength/attack bonus relative to that expected for your level. At that you're going to fall behind with these plans unless you take 2-3 rounds to buff up before a fight. Dex-based isn't helpful unless you have extra feats and/or dex-boosting buffs (neither of which describes a cleric very well) so that's not useful, true.

A separatist cleric loses proficiency in their deities' weapon which means you'd lose the free IUS, so count that into your plans. The Shavtoosh isn't affordable until 4th level (or later depending on how much of the wealth available you're willing to spend) which could be a pain.

I'll work up a warpriest. It's not just the damage scaling, it's the extra feats, fervor to quicken spells and sacred weapon/armor abilities.


WP, especially with arsenal chaplain, is a very combat cleric. Tons of damage, tons of accuracy, and buffs while attacking. And the WP really only cares about it's 1st level spells for buffs, so picking up pearl of power 1 if you need more of them solves your spells issue. Yes, you do miss out on having higher level spells as fast, so if you're really wanting to have those it's not the right fit. But if you want cleric spells and a great combat presence WP is great. Their blessings are a minor feature, and thus why they are less good than cleric's domains, which are their main feature.


Human Warpriest of Nethys

Str 14+2=16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7

Destruction & Knowledge blessings
FCB 1/6 of a combat feat
Traits
Fate’s Favored, Accelerated Drinker

Feats
1: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), Deific Obedience, TWF
3: Double Slice, Magical Epiphany
5: Dual Enhancement
6: Weapon Spec. (quarterstaff), Power Attack
7: Martial Focus
9: Greater Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), Improved TWF
11: Divine Interference
12: Greater Weapon Spec. (quarterstaff), Difficult Swings

Yes, there’s less magic in this build. You have enough use for swift actions that Quicken Spell would be a waste; you may have move actions free so I added Accelerated Drinker. Magical Epiphany will allow you to get by with reserving less spell slots for condition removal or other situational spells.

If you prefer unarmed then go with Irori, get the Law and Knowledge blessings perhaps, and replace quarterstaff with unarmed strike above. Dual Enhancement & Power Attack might be replaced with Boar Style & Boar Ferocity perhaps - I’d included Power Attack here because you might use a quarterstaff two-handed on a charge or similar.

A typical buff routine at 9th might go
Round 1: Move action drink a potion of enlarge person, swift action use sacred weapon to buff your staff, standard action cast divine favor or channel vigor.
Round 2: Swift action use sacred armor, then kill away.
You don’t have a big buff the way a cleric does, but you have a lot of other passive buffs there - weapon spec., weapon focus & GWF, double slice, martial focus, slightly scaling damage on your staff.

One minor thing, you need Dex 15 for TWF which your original examples didn’t have.


avr wrote:

A typical buff routine at 9th might go

Round 1: Move action drink a potion of enlarge person, swift action use sacred weapon to buff your staff, standard action cast divine favor or channel vigor.
Round 2: Swift action use sacred armor, then kill away.

I forgot how much fervor a warpriest would have by 9. For round 2 cast whichever of divine favor/channel vigor you didn't in round 1, using fervor to make it a swift action.

Sovereign Court

avr wrote:

Human Warpriest of Nethys

Str 14+2=16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7

Destruction & Knowledge blessings
FCB 1/6 of a combat feat
Traits
Fate’s Favored, Accelerated Drinker

Feats
1: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), Deific Obedience, TWF
3: Double Slice, Magical Epiphany
5: Dual Enhancement
6: Weapon Spec. (quarterstaff), Power Attack
7: Martial Focus
9: Greater Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), Improved TWF
11: Divine Interference
12: Greater Weapon Spec. (quarterstaff), Difficult Swings

Yes, there’s less magic in this build. You have enough use for swift actions that Quicken Spell would be a waste; you may have move actions free so I added Accelerated Drinker. Magical Epiphany will allow you to get by with reserving less spell slots for condition removal or other situational spells.

If you prefer unarmed then go with Irori, get the Law and Knowledge blessings perhaps, and replace quarterstaff with unarmed strike above. Dual Enhancement & Power Attack might be replaced with Boar Style & Boar Ferocity perhaps - I’d included Power Attack here because you might use a quarterstaff two-handed on a charge or similar.

A typical buff routine at 9th might go
Round 1: Move action drink a potion of enlarge person, swift action use sacred weapon to buff your staff, standard action cast divine favor or channel vigor.
Round 2: Swift action use sacred armor, then kill away.
You don’t have a big buff the way a cleric does, but you have a lot of other passive buffs there - weapon spec., weapon focus & GWF, double slice, martial focus, slightly scaling damage on your staff.

One minor thing, you need Dex 15 for TWF which your original examples didn’t have.

Good catch on the TWF, was thinking it was Dex 13 requirement. I also like the Accelerated Drinker trait, which I forgot about.

I might be off on the number crunch but this is what I'm seeing with a Quarterstaff Warpriest. Maybe Sacred Fist is a stronger option? Quarterstaff Warpriest to-hit is a little lower than my example Cleric full-attack. Maybe the Unarmed Strike Warpriest outperforms both of the below?

9th level Example:

6/1 bab + 2 sacred weapon + 4 df + 1 wfocus + 1 gwfocus + 5str -2pa -2 twf = full attack: 15/15/10/10

2d6 (enlarged) + 2 weapon spec + 1 martial focus + 4 df + 2 sacred weapon + 5str + 4pa + 1d6 axiomatic = 2d6 + 18 + 1d6 axiomatic
note: Not sure if TWF a Quarterstaff counts as 2handing for Power attack, also listed 1.0x Str score since I don't believe it gets the 1.5x when using as TWF.

rebuilt level 9 Cleric:

Starting stats:
Str: 14+2=16 +1@4 +1@8
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage: Fate's Favored
domains: Fist + Rage (Separatist)

1) Cleric 1: Bab +0, Quicken Metamagic (lvl 1), TWF (human)
2) Cleric 2: Bab +1,
3) Cleric 3: Bab +2, Boar Style(lvl 3)
4) Cleric 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Cleric 5: Bab +3, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (lvl 5)
6) Cleric 6: Bab +4,
7) Cleric 7: Bab +5, Boar Ferocity (lvl 7)
8) Cleric 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Dex
9) Cleric 9: Bab +6/+1, ITWF (lvl 9)

6/1 bab + 2 gmfang + 4 DF + 7 Str (+2str/dex belt & Righteous Might), +1 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +1 WFocus (Unarmed), -2 TWF = 19/19/14/14

1d3 +7 Str +4 Divine Favor, + 2 GMF +5 Wooden Fist + 2d6 Acid AoMF =
1d3 + 2d6 + 18dmg

-----
Chess Pwn - I might be reading it wrong on Archives of Nethys but doesn't Arsenal Chaplan only give Fighter's "Weapon Training" for Sacred Weapons at the cost of pigeon hole'ing yourself into War blessing and your sacred weapon being stuck at 1d6 max?


1d10 goes to 2d8 enlarged, and with channel vigor (haste) (see the short post just before yours) that's a 3rd full attack and +1 attack bonus. If you're assuming an ioun stone for the cleric add that in as well for another +1 attack. Sacred weapon stacks with normal enhancement bonuses so add GMW for +2/+2 (which the warpriest can cast), or get a magic quarterstaff.

Total 19/19/19/14/14 for
2d8 + 20 main hand, 2d8 +18 off hand

or without PA,
Total 21/21/21/16/16 for
2d8 + 16

If +1d6 axiomatic came from the Law blessing, I didn't assume this because you won't always have time for a blessing in your buff routine.

Power attack only does the full 2H bonus when you don't use TWF, yes. With a double weapon like a quarterstaff that's when you charge or otherwise move and attack, or perhaps when staggered.

On your rebuild you need to spend a feat on IUS to get Boar Style at level 3. You can't afford a Perfectionist Shavtoosh at that point, though I suppose retraining would allow it. A corrosive AoMF adds 1d6 acid, I don't know where the 2d6 comes from.

Sacred Fist warpriests have been nerfed to the point of being pointless. The Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain loses a blessing and the scaling of the weapon damage but that doesn't matter much - you often just don't have the time to use a blessing. Converting my example above, you'd move the weapon damage down from 2d8 to 1d8 but assuming gloves of duelling add +4 attack and damage. It is better and I should have thought of that.

Sovereign Court

Would it be silly to think about taking the Evangelist Prestige class after 5th level? 6 skill points per level, extra AC, few good boons, and gain 2 class skills.

At the expense of 1 caster level but could either swap out Accelerated Drinker for Magical Knack or could take Additional Traits and grab another free trait along with Magical Knack.

I completely missed that Sacred Weapon buff is a Sacred bonus, therefor stacking with Greater Magic Weapon. Your updated attack/dmg stats look much better and on par now, while being melee capable faster and having more swift cast abilities available. :)

Also, the mention of Gloves of Dueling makes sense now on the benefit of Arsenal Chaplain, didn't know those were a thing but for only 15k that's definitely a good purchase.


yes you get fighter weapon training instead of channel and you get the war blessing regardless of deity.
Blessings are, to me at least, a pretty minor feature, and war is one of the better ones. Plus you get free quicken blessing so that's nice.

And if you're bringing up your weapons being stuck at 1d6 here's the maths.

Chaplain is better always, regardless of weapon, that's why it is the WP and the vanilla is the more healy WP.

at lv5 normal warpriest had gone from 1d6 to 1d8, which is +1 damage average
A chaplain has WT for a +1 to attack and a +1 to damage

at lv9 normal is still at 1d8
chaplain is now at +2 to attack and +2 damage.

at lv10 normal is finally at 1d10 for another 1 average damage increase putting total at +2
chaplain is still at +2 to attack and damage

at lv13 normal is still at 1d10 for his +2 damage
chaplain goes to +3 to attack and damage

at lv15 normal is now at 2d6 for +1.5 damage total 3.5
chaplain is still at +3 to attack and damage

at 17 normal is still at 2d6 for damage total 3.5
chaplain is now at +4 to attack and damage

then 3 level later at lv20 normal goes to 2d8 for 5.5 damage total increase.

So not only are you coming online faster, your damage bonus is the same, only losing out at lv20. BUT you are also getting an accuracy boost. Using a simple conversion of 2 damage per accuracy we get a total of +12 damage

And this doesn't include the gloves of dueling for another +2 to attack and damage.

The chaplain is the best for combat. And blessings are minor and short that you use them as swift action round 3 when you don't have better buffs to use your swift on.

Sovereign Court

Thanks Chess. Do you guys think going Evangelist Prestige is a good choice or no? It slows progression down 1 level but adds the boons and other features of the prestige class while increasing all the existing Warpriest features.

Sovereign Court

*bump* Is it worth adding the Evangelist prestige class to the Arsenal Chaplain?


I mean, maybe if you want more skills. Honestly I'm not sure. I've never tried to use the evangelist PRC. Although it's worth noting that you will be one BAB behind.


Purely on the class stats - you lose a point of BAB in the changeover unless you use fractional BAB, you swap two good saves for one, but you do gain 4 skill points per level and some odd skill bonuses.

Then of course you lose a level of warpriest casting and class features. Not good so far.

Lets look at the boons. For Irori you're looking at getting identify 3/day, fox’s cunning 2/day, or secret page 1/day at level 8 (whatever), then at level 11 you get your unarmed strikes going from 1d6 damage to 1d8 (+ 2d6 vs chaotic) for effectively the adventuring day. For Nethys at level 8 you get mage armor 3/day, mirror image 2/day, or fly 1/day (not bad actually) , then at 11 you get arcane eye w/arcane sight 3/day.

I think either is a solid net loss for this sort of character. If you spend a second feat on diverse obedience some options open up - spellstrike with a staff at level 11 via Nethys or (assuming a typo which should be corrected) true strike 3/day, false life 2/day, or haste 1/day at level 8 via Irori. Better, but still worse IMO unless you really like the skill bonuses which Evangelist gives you.

Sovereign Court

I messed around with the example build you gave AVR. How does it look?

Arsenal Chaplain of Irori
Traits: Fate's Favored, Accelerated Drinker
Blessings: War

Human:
STR 14/16
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14+
CHA 7

1. TWF (1st), Combat Reflexes (human), Weapon Focus: Monk's Spade (WP)
3. Dual Enhancement (3rd), Double Slice (WP)
5. Power Attack (5th)
6. Martial Focus (WPFCB), Weapon Specialization: Monk's Spade (WP)
7. Cut from the Air (7th)
9. ITWF (9th), Greater Weapon Focus: Monk's Spade (WP)
11. Divine Interference (11th)
12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Monk's Spade (12th), Difficult Swings (WPFCB)

I noticed Warpriest are proficient with all martial weapons and that Monk's Spade was a nice double weapon, which also has that monk/Irori feel. I was thinking "Cut from the Air" may be useful to block multiple ranged attacks. I think it adds to that "Monk" feel at least.

Going into Evangelist Prestige may be too difficult. I believe it stops my favored class bonus, so I could go Warpriest 6th and then rest Evangelist to get 1 bonus feat from human FCB. It also delays my BAB by 1 for feat requirements and delays my bonus Warpriest feats by 1 level. So it may be too steep of a price to pay even though there's some good benefits.

Even if not going Evangelist, I'd like to fit Deific Obedience in there somewhere since it's such a major boost to all Knowledge checks. Any suggestions on what to cut out or how to better arrange my feats to add Deific Obedience in there?


I'd say double slice is the least important feat there if you want to cut something. It's a small if reliable damage bonus, and it comes in early enough that its replacement can be a defining part of your character.


I would also consider Unchained Monk 1/ Cleric X.

One level of Unchained Monk negates any need to go TWF, works with bonus Dodge and WIS AC, and still leaves a Cleric with as much spell-level power as an Oracle. It also grants proficiency with all Monk weapons if you want to go two-handed Power Attack Monk weapon flurry, and it grants the Stunning Fist prerequisite if you want to go Dragon Style/Ferocity flurry.

On a high STR/WIS Iroran Cleric, you can also use things like Domain Strike: Command to drop the Inevitable Subdomain Command Power onto things with a punch and a swift action, you can pre-buff spells like Instrument of Agony and Archon's Aura (2min/level with a cheap rod) and Aura of Doom (10min/level), you can take an Inquisition that grants WIS to social skills... and so on. A Dual Talent Human can easily go something like 15/17STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 13INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA.

The one major downside of Cleric/Monk1 is that you might lose out on a combat round to use Divine Favor, but it's possible to have Quickened Divine Favor by level 8 if so inclined.

Sovereign Court

BadBird wrote:

I would also consider Unchained Monk 1/ Cleric X.

One level of Unchained Monk negates any need to go TWF, works with bonus Dodge and WIS AC, and still leaves a Cleric with as much spell-level power as an Oracle. It also grants proficiency with all Monk weapons if you want to go two-handed Power Attack Monk weapon flurry, and it grants the Stunning Fist prerequisite if you want to go Dragon Style/Ferocity flurry.

On a high STR/WIS Iroran Cleric, you can also use things like Domain Strike: Command to drop the Inevitable Subdomain Command Power onto things with a punch and a swift action, you can pre-buff spells like Instrument of Agony and Archon's Aura (2min/level with a cheap rod) and Aura of Doom (10min/level), you can take an Inquisition that grants WIS to social skills... and so on. A Dual Talent Human can easily go something like 15/17STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 13INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA.

The one major downside of Cleric/Monk1 is that you might lose out on a combat round to use Divine Favor, but it's possible to have Quickened Divine Favor by level 8 if so inclined.

One question that I have with taking a 1 level DIP of Monk. Does Flurry of Blows progress as you level in another class? As in, will FoB just give me 1 extra attack only? I guess it's more complex with the original Monk class though in how BAB from another class affects the Monk's FoB?

Badbird, can you draft up a 1 Monk / Rest Cleric build that you think would be a good alternative to a Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest? Not sure if it can match it in raw power but I'd like to see what you could come up with. :)


Yes you get just one attack extra but you still get the attacks you would normally get from BAB 6/11/16.


which for the price is really good.
At lv1 you're looking at +0/+0 instead of -2/-2
At lv 4 it's +3/+3 instead of +1/+1
at lv 8 it's +6/+6/+1 instead of +4/+4/-1/-1

plus you get to use only one weapon so it's cheaper, and you can THF for more damage per hit. Instead of doing 1d6+str you do 2d6+1.5str.

Plus with the unchained, you don't get your second attack till lv11, so for 9 levels you're not "missing out" on anything for flurry, and as shown, for TWF having the better accuracy and more damage per hit is a pretty great deal. Plus saving you money and feats.

It's a very good option to go.

Sovereign Court

The biggest issue with Cleric/UMonk is that if I wear any armor I lose Wis bonus to AC and Flurry of Blows. I could Rage via Rage subdomain (Separatist) for +2atk & +4dmg or 3dmg per attack (Dragon Style factored in there). Destructive Smite is an extra +5dmg when using a single attack. For some reason I feel like Destructive Aura would just get me killed lol.

12th level Warpriest:
Heavy Armor, Martial Weapons, Fervor 4d6
Base Spells: 1st: 5, 2nd: 5, 3rd: 4, 4th: 3
Fervor: 10 possible Quickcasts a day
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Cut From The Air, Difficult Swings

Attack: 9/4 + 3gmw + 6str + 4df + 1ioun + 2wfocus + 3weapon training + 2 sweapon -2twf = 9/4 + 19 = 28/23
Dmg: 6str + 2sweapon + 4wspec + 3wtraining + 4df + 3gmw
PA: -3atk, +6dmg

Full Attack: 25/25/20/20 @ 1d6 + 28dmg
Total: 4d6 + 112

11th level Cleric / 1st level Unchained Monk:
Stunning Fist, Proficient with all “Monk” weapons
Base Spells: 1st: 4+1, 2nd: 4+1, 3rd: 4+1, 4th: 3+1, 5th: 2+1, 6th: 1+1
Feats: Dragon Style Benefits, Deflect Arrows
Monk Class Skills Bonus: Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth
2 Domains: Fist Subdomain + Rage Subdomain (Separatist)
Stoneskin domain spell
ARMOR

Atttack: 9/4 + 3gmf + 6str + 4df + 1ioun + 1wfocus = 9/4 + 15 = 24/19
Damage: 12str + 5domain + 4df + 3gmf =
PA: -3atk +6dmg

1st Attack: 21 @ 1d6 + 30dmg
2nd & 3rd Attack: 21/16 @ 1d6 + 27dmg
Total: 3d6 + 84

A 12th level Warpriest has roughly 10 quickcasts a day via Fervor, but would the higher level spells make up some for that? Cleric build gets a bunch of bonus Class Skills from Monk and is probably cheaper in gear expenses. Thoughts?

My Warpriest build example has Difficult Swings & Cut From The Air. How good are these abilities in use? And would Devastating Assault be worth taking later or replacing Difficult Swings?

Is the Cleric/Monk build comparable to the Warpriest build? Did I miss anything?


Separatist Rage Domain on a Cleric/Monk1 won't kick-in until level 11, since Separatist holds back powers by two levels. I would go Separatist Glory/Heroism for Heroism as a Domain spell, since it's basically +2 attack for free; or maybe Evangelist Cleric so that at level 8 you can start using move-action Inspire Courage on the same turn as you cast your main buff.

Having no armor shouldn't be an issue if you build it right, since Magic Vestment, high WIS and free Dodge add up very nicely. If you have a way to get Mage Armor put on you, even better.

For an unarmed strike Irori Cleric/Monk1, I would do something like:

Dual Talent Human: 16/18STR, 10DEX, 12CON, 12INT, 16/18WIS, 7CHA
Separatist Cleric of Irori 10 / Unchained Monk 1
Domains: Strength/Fist, Glory/Heroism
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack

1UM. +M: Dodge / Toughness
2SC.
3SC. Dragon Style
4SC. (+STR)
5SC. Dragon Ferocity
6SC.
7SC. Power Attack
8SC. (+STR)
9SC. Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
10SC.
11SC. Divine Interference

So at level 11, with a +4STR item, a base of 20STR, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, an average hit would have 1d6+3 +10STR +6Power +5WoodFist +4Favor = ~32. Accuracy with Divine Favor and pre-buffed Heroism running is very solid.

You can also use Quickened Divine Favor by level 8 if you take the Magical Lineage: Divine Favor trait and Quicken Spell.

Defense with a +4WIS item, 18WIS, and Dodge is essentially going to be like wearing a Field Plate with Magic Vestment on it, but with no movement or ACP issues. You can buy things like a Snakeskin Tunic, a +2DEX Ioun Stone, or a Monk's Robe if you want more AC.

With high WIS, you can hopefully pre-buff Archon's Aura (2min/level with a rod) and Aura of Doom (10min/level) to badly mess with enemies just by being close to them. If you can pre-buff Instrument of Agony, it can ruin someone's day as a free action.

All that being said, a Monk weapon is generally going to beat unarmed strikes for flurry combat on a Cleric/Monk, or at least make it much easier to put together; you get two-handed strength and Power Attack with a much better weapon. For unarmed strikes, an Urban Druid/Monk1 is probably the stronger option for unarmed combat; an Urban Druid could buff with at-will Alter Self and Divine Favor, and then use Quickened Frostbite to wreck things with (+1d6+level[cold]+fatigue) fists of frost.


The advantage of Difficult Swings is no save, and no loss of your full attack. At 12th level a Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 BAB + Str bonus (Devastating Assault) is pretty weak - and you only do damage as per a single attack.

Cut from the Air is not a big deal. It's weaker than Deflect Arrows. Stylish though. However Blind-fighting or Bodyguard might be just as stylish and useful more often.

The cleric build has more class skills but no room for Divine Obedience (Irori), which I think about cancels out on that point. Being able to use what amounts to spontaneous quicken spell 10/day is a huge advantage to the warpriest, no doubt about it, but having 5th-6th level spells (Heal, Righteous Might) is a big deal too. At 11th-12th level either will have more total spells/abilities than they can usefully cast in an adventuring day, but a cleric probably won't have more than a couple of quickened spells. The warpriest can keep using swift actions and become more dangerous (or use condition removals to avoid becoming less dangerous) in long combats, the cleric wants as many prebuffs as possible. I don't know which situation is more common in PFS.

Not wearing armor, keeping your speed at 30 and not getting ACP is nice, but you won't have the skill points to keep Acrobatics etc. up to par. If you're facing a DC 20 check with a +6 skill the odds aren't with you, you probably shouldn't be doing this action if it matters at all. Mid-high level adventures IME don't mention a lot of DC 10-15 checks.

On the AC total - Wis 18, +4 headband and Dodge is 7 points of AC. Full plate is 9 points of AC, and it's an extra item slot if you happen to like spell storing or bolstering or something. It's not a big difference but it is advantage warpriest. OTOH no armor might fit your mental image better - the original idea involved mimicking a monk and BadBird's build does look more like one.

Sovereign Court

Well I drafted up two builds to compare based on the new information from you guys.

Any thoughts or advice? Feel free to tell me which one you think sticks out as the better choice here. I think I'm near the tail end of deciding the final build for this character.

1 Unchained Monk, 4 Evangelist Cleric, 7 Evangelist Prestige:

1st level Stats: Str18, Dex10, Con12, Int12, Wis18, Cha7
HP: 93
AC: 34 (39 fighting defensively)
Skill Points: 66
Saves: 8 / 7 / 6 base
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Magical Knack: Cleric
Domains: Strength & Darkness
Spells: 7, 7, 5, 5, 4 (domain & wis bonus included)

Feats: Wfocus: 9section Whip (1), Dodge (monk), Blind-Fight (domain), Crane Style (3), Deific Obedience (5), Power Attack (7), Deflect Arrows (9), Divine Interference (11)

Weapon: 9-section Whip
Full Attack: 23/23/18 (Fighting Defensively) @ 2d6 + 31dmg each
Total: 6d6 + 93dmg

Equipment: +4str belt, +4wis headband, Snakeskin Tunic, +1ac Ioun stone, +1attack Ioun stone, Monk’s Robes, Extend Rod, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Cloak of Resistance

12 Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest:

1st level Stats: Str16, Dex15, Con14, Int12, Wis14, Cha7
HP: 99
AC: 31
Skills: 48 points
Saves: 8 / 4 / 8 base
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Accelerated Drinker
Spells: 6, 6, 5, 4 (wis bonus included)

Feats: TWF (1), Combat Reflexes (human), WFocus: Monk’s Spade (WP), Dual Enhancement (3), Double Slice (WP), Power Attack (5), Martial Focus (WPFCB), WSpec: Monk’s Spade (WP), Difficult Swings (7), ITWF (9), GWFocus: Monk’s Spade (WP), Divine Interference (11), GWSpec: Monk’s Spade (WP), Cut from the Air (WPFCB)

Weapon: Monk’s Spade
Full Attack: 28/28/23/23
Total: 4d8 + 92dmg

Equipment: +4str belt, +4wis headband, Snakeskin Tunic, Full Plate, +1ac Ioun stone, +1attack Ioun stone, Extend Rod, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Cloak of Resistance

Cleric Hybrid benefits:
I left a bunch of the number crunch out to not clutter up everything. The saves and hp are pretty much even. The cleric hybrid has 18 more skill points and more spells.

I took Crane Style to help boost AC, along with a blocking weapon, dodge feat, acrobatics boost, and fighting defensively it doesn't seem like a bad choice?

I grabbed a 1handed blocking weapon to still use Deflect Arrows and still have the ability to 2hand power attack FoB. AC is better with the Cleric hybrid if I use Mage Armor and if I can pre-buff with Shield of Faith.

I took the Darkness domain since it picks up Blind-Fight for free, whereas Heroism domain only gives 1 use of Heroism spell a day. I was able to add Deific Obedience in there also.

I could ditch the fighting defensively part to up my to-hit bonus but I'm not sure what feat or feats to replace Crane Style and Dodge with (I'd probably keep Deflect Arrows as my monk bonus feat).

Warpriest benefits:

I have Difficult Swings which could be really strong. Cut from the Air allows me to compete against any archers that try to make me a pin cushion. I also have about 10 uses of Quickcast for any of my 1st - 4th level spells available or to swift action heal myself. I could work Deific Obedience in but I'd have to cut Double Slice out which will hurt my overall damage a little.


Heroism lasts 20min/level with a lesser Extend rod, which means that by level 8 you can put Heroism into your level 3 and level 4 Domain slots, with each casting lasting 160 minutes, for a total of over 5 hours of Heroism per day in two batches. It shouldn't be an issue to have it on all the time, and it's a fantastic all-around buff.

There's also the Glory Domain's Touch of Glory ability that adds your whole Cleric level to CHA skill checks a few times a day, which totally reverses the normal crappy social situation for a low-CHA character - and you can use it on the party face instead for godly CHA rolls.

Glory/Heroism is one of my favorite Domains for all-around Cleric goodness.


Kind of off-topic when discussing Irori Clerics, but for Cleric/Monk options I don't like Irori all that much. Things like Guided Hand and Crusader's Flurry let Cleric/Monk characters whose deities have Monk favored weapons or just generally great weapons can do very interesting things, while favored weapon unarmed strike is kind of weak by comparison.

A Cleric/Monk1 of Ragathiel can run Flurry of Blows with a bastard sword and Rage; a Cleric/Monk1 of Hei-Feng (there are easy ways around the alignment issue) can use Guided Hand with 9-ring broadsword flurry while focusing on WIS for attack, spellcasting, AC, Domain powers and Mantis Stunning Fist through his sword; or an Ecclesitheurge of Cayden Cailean could just wield a 9-ring broadsword - and use retraining rules in PFS to pick up Dimensional Dervish flurry by level 9. You can even have a Cleric/Monk1 use flurry with a scythe while casting Mirror Image if you want. Irori... always seemed kind of boring to me.


Evangelist clerics only get one domain. The archetype is not compatible with Separatist. Otherwise, yes your stats make it clear: warpriest kills things better with or without heroism. The monk/cleric will have better defences, especially with heroism cast. The evangelist PrC helps skills.

As said before, prebuffing favors the cleric, long combats the warpriest. You would be a better judge of which is more common in PFS than I would. Just out of curiosity, which is it?

Irori was obviously created as a 'god of monks', not the most interesting of concepts, and he doesn't seem to have supporters on the Paizo writing team like Desna, Asmodeus, Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean or even Shelyn do. That leads to less support options which leads to less interest, and there's been less written about him over time I think.


Personally, my biggest issue with Irori is just that unarmed strike is so inferior as a weapon choice - not so much because of weak stats, but because you can't two-hand it and enhancing it is problematic. Guided Hand and secondary STR isn't so bad when you're wielding a 9-ring or greatsword or whatever in two hands with Power Attack, but Guided Hand with secondary STR on unarmed strike is pretty lousy.

Iroran Unchained Monk 1/ Cleric 4/ Divine Scion 4 might be interesting, since the biggest stand-out combat bonus from Divine Scion is the flat +4 to all CMB you can get from Strength Domain. But then you're kind of being tied to unarmed strike, which just makes trying to pull off a maneuver build that much more aggravating. I guess a trip build with Vicious Stomp might work out, or a Dirty Trick build that picked up Quick Dirty Trick ASAP.

EDIT: maneuver builds can draw major benefit from the Sage Counselor Unchained Monk's level 1 ability to ignore INT prerequisites and grab Combat Expertise for free.

Sovereign Court

BadBird wrote:
Kind of off-topic when discussing Irori Clerics, but for Cleric/Monk options I don't like Irori all that much. Things like Guided Hand and Crusader's Flurry let Cleric/Monk characters whose deities have Monk favored weapons or just generally great weapons can do very interesting things, while favored weapon unarmed strike is kind of weak by comparison.

Yeah the main reasons I was thinking of Irori were because

Irori bonuses:

1) Channel Vigor is a decent spell
2) Haste is nice for melee groups
3) +4 to all knowledge checks (40 skill points worth)
4) Wisdom in the Flesh is good if Additional Traits can be taken
4) Evangelist Prestige - Runic Form (9 tattoos) is pretty good.
5) Inevitable Fist is decent.

I forgot that I can put Heroism in 4th+ domain spell slots. If it's put in a 4+ spell slot I don't think you can use a Lesser Extend Rod on it any longer since it would no longer effectively be a 3rd level spell. Correct me if I'm wrong though. The Touch of Glory would be a nice way to counter the Charisma penalty.

The only reason I'm considering outside of Warpriest now is the Evangelist Prestige bonus skill points, a few extra higher level spells, and the Boons which some seem pretty strong. I just recently noticed that Evangelist Prestige allows you to be within 1 step of the deity which allows you to pick an Evil deity. Maybe a few of these deities are worth considering?

Lamashtu:

1) Beastial Jaws boon: free secondary bite attack
2) Scarred Form boon: Constant 5/- DR
3) Deific Obedience: +1 natural armor (probably easy to sacrifice rats or some other small creature each morning to fulfill ritual.)
4) Monstrous Extremities spell: allows for an extra secondary attack
5) Baleful Polymorph spell
6) Can FoB with Falchion (crusader's flurry)

Rovagug:

1) The Destroyer's Gifts boon: +1 spell slot of highest level.
2) Wicked Claws boon: 2 1d8 claws.
3) Baleful Polymorph spell
4) Rovagug's Fury spell: Trip cone burst spell
4) Can FoB with Greataxe (crusader's flurry)

Not sure if you can combine 2 claw attacks with FoB.

Zyphus:

1) Can FoB with Heavy Pick: 1d6 x4 weapon (crusader's flurry)
2) Tragic Accident boon: pretty decent
3) Unfairness of the World boon: INSANELY Good ability vs a BBEG

I'm considering playing this character beyond level 11 in PFS so I may actually use some of the final boons. Even though Hei-Feng and Ragathiel are neat, they don't have any Evangelist/Exalted/Sentinel prestige classes for them. If I'm not going Evangelist prestige then I think I'd just go full Warpriest since the benefits are greater.

One benefit with Evangelist Prestige that I just noticed is taking UMD as a class skill and casting Mage Armor, Longstrider, See Invisibility, Barkskin, Shocking Grasp into a Spell-storing weapon, or some other spells from scrolls to pre-buff.

I think Irori can be somewhat interesting if maybe the focus is shifted onto a specific temple or sect of Irori that the character was raised up in. Irori is just the outline of the path to perfection, while the individual's path itself is of more interest.

A few of the evil deities kind of lead to a "feral" kind of melee cleric. I was originally thinking of more of an "Avatar" cleric monk though. Feel free to share your thoughts on the 3 evil deities as I may consider them.

-----
@AVR - For PFS if it's an 1hour/ lvl buff it's super easy to pre-buff. If it's a 10min/lvl you're probably able to pre-buff about 80% of the time, 1min/lvl buffs you may be able to pre-buff 20% of the time before combat. Sometimes there's ambushes or times where something happens a bit unexpectedly and you have little time to react or have to stop something from happening.


Some thought about irori's "bonuses"

If you're a class getting 2 skill points and have anywhere from a 5 to a 12 int, your knowledge skills aren't useful. 1 rank into them with the feat gives you between a +9 for class skills or +6 for non-class if you had a positive int. most starting wizards will have a +9 to any knowledge skill since they have an int 5. So while getting 40 skill points sounds really cool, getting 40 ranks and into stuff you don't do well is quite a bit less useful. So if you need to be the skills guy this will help, but if there's someone with a good int or extra bonuses then you're not getting use from your bonus.

Wisdom in the Flesh can give you a little to moderate bonus to one skill. Since you don't have skill ranks I personally wouldn't spend a feat to get extra traits for this, but if you have no better use for a trait spot it's not a bad option.

The poor skill ranks are quite crippling to skill bonuses since you wont have good skills for the bonuses to supplement, and the bonuses aren't enough to make you go from bad to good.

Haste IS super nice, but is the combat cleric really the one to bring it? If you're needing to spend your own time buffing yourself then this delays you another round, which prevents the damage dealer from doing damage. So if you're the less damage dealing of an all damage party then go for it. If there are good chances that a bard/wizard/summoner/buffing cleric with blessing of fervor/etc. will be in the party then they are likely to provide the haste OR if you're the main beatstick and thus haste is for you and the secondary fighter then haste from you is quite a lot less attractive.

On casting heroism, I'm pretty sure that just using a high slot wont alter the spell, so the lesser rod is still fine if it's a 3rd level spell for you. If it's a 4th level spell from your domain then the lesser rod already wont work.

UMD for buffs is hard since the duration and bonuses are short and the DC is pretty high. getting +2 AC from barkskin for 30minutes if you have a good UMD to me isn't worth not spending 8000gp on the amulet of natural armor +2.

As to which option to pick I suggest you decide 1 thing which will really decide which to go with.
Do you want the biggest numbers, or do you want lots of cool/interesting abilities?
if you want numbers go warpriest, if you want lots of cool/interesting abilities then the evangelist from cleric probably wins that.

Sovereign Court

Chess Pwn wrote:

Some thought about irori's "bonuses"

If you're a class getting 2 skill points and have anywhere from a 5 to a 12 int, your knowledge skills aren't useful.

Appreciate the response Chess. One of the big reasons why going the Evangelist prestige at 6th level and beyond is that my skill points per level will be 6 + int mod + 1 (human) per level. So the 1 level of monk will be 6 skill points, 4 levels of cleric will be 16 skill points, and the 7 Evangelist prestige levels will be 56 for a total of 78 skill points.

With PFS, it's hit and miss whether there's someone in the party that has decent knowledge checks, has wizard spells (in my experience, it has been pretty rare to have a Wizard or Sorcerer in the party).

My bad on UMD'ing a scroll:
I thought it would go off the Caster Level you wanted to emulate which would increase the UMD DC, but it doesn't... I guess I could resort to Bracers of Armor or a Guardian Gorget instead of Mage Armor'ing every hour.

I think I'm leaning more towards extra bells & whistles and I really like the Ecclesitheurge archetype Badbird mentioned earlier. You can spontaneously cast 1 spell of any level, bonded holy symbol gets price discount when adding a wonderous amulet ability (Amulet of Mighty Fists for example), and allows me to take the Healing domain without being stuck with the poor domain spell list.

Primary Domain: Strength/Fist
Secondary Domain: Healing/Restoration
*I can swap Healing/Restoration for Knowledge or Law domain spell list. Which allows me to keep Restorative Touch and Healer's Blessing while having access to some more useful domain spells.


Putting a spell in a higher level slot doesn't change anything about the spell itself, unless you're doing it with Heighten Spell (because you actually want it counted as higher level).

Note that Channel Vigor only grants yourself Haste.

As far as Warpriest goes, Sacred Fist can actually be pretty deadly if using a weapon; they're ironically pretty bad with unarmed strike, but with a sansetsukon or temple sword or even just quarterstaff wielded in two hands, they can drop an avalanche on things (2 bonus attacks plus a bonus ki attack at higher levels, so up to 6 attacks with flurry and Haste/Divine). The fact that a Sacred Fist of Irori can easily use Channel Ki on themselves is pretty awesome.

---

Here's a Cleric/Monk1 of Irori I tossed together while bored at work that I quite like:

Iroran Temple Guardian
Sage Counselor Unchained Monk 1 / Separatist of Irori 10
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 13DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage: Divine Favor

1(SCUM). +Combat Expertise / Improved Trip
2. Domains: Excommunication Inquisition, Glory/Heroism
3. Combat Reflexes -> Retrained at 8
4.
5. Vicious Stomp -> Retrained at 8
6.
7. Power Attack
8. Retrained from 3: Greater Trip / Retrained from 5: Felling Smash
9. Quicken Spell
10.
11. Combat Reflexes

Notable Equipment: Leveraging Temple Sword +3, Conductive Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4STR belt, +4WIS headband, Dusty Rose Prism + Wayfinder, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: Trip, Snakeskin Tunic, Ring of Force Shield.

On the first round available, the Temple Guardian casts Quickened Divine Favor and Righteous Might for a huge mixed combat buff and a size increase.

On subsequent rounds, they can choose to use Flurry of Blows with their temple sword with tripping if they can full attack, or they can use Felling Smash with a standard attack to knock down targets and then strike them again with Greater Trip.

Their Conductive, Fortuitous AoMF (plus GMW cast on unarmed strike) lets them channel their Excommunication Touch of Silence ability through an unarmed strike to silence casters without a save, and grants them an extra unarmed strike AoO once per round when they make an AoO - which can turn Felling Smash into a triple-strike standard attack.

Their CMB for tripping targets with everything running is: 8BAB, +8STR, +6leveraging/sword, +4favor, +2gauntlets, +2ioun, +4feats, +1size, +2Heroism, -3PAk = +34(!).


Has anyone considered using archetypes that grant more skill ranks, such as Herald Caller or Cardinal? It would help capitalize on the huge bonus on knowledge checks that Deific Obedience grants. That, alongside the Knowledge domain giving you all knowledge skills as a bonus, can make you one of the best librarians in the game. It might make your combat skills more limited, but it's only a thought.

Also, as a result of the access to those knowledge skills, you can use style feats that use unarmed styles such as Wolf Style and Kirin Style.

Sovereign Court

Here's a few hours of building that I came up with. Diverse Obedience won't work in PFS with Rovagug or Lamashtu so scratch those ideas.

Zon-Kuthon sort of works to make "Strike of the Endless" and "Agonizing Blow" attacks as part of a Flurry of Blows. Used Sacred Fist as it's the only decent way to gain a Ki Pool with mixing Divine Casting.

Zon-Kuthon Unarmed Strike Build:

Human:
STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14+2
CHA 7
7,5,5,2,5,-4

Traits: Divine Favor, Magical Knack: Warpriest
1st domain: Darkness
2nd domain: Destruction

1) Sacred Fist 1: Bab +0, Dodge (lvl 1), IUS (WP)
2) Sacred Fist 2: Bab +1,
3) Sacred Fist 3: Bab +2, Pummeling Style (lvl 3)
4) Sacred Fist 4: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Sacred Fist 5: Bab +3, Deific Obedience (lvl 5)
6) Evangelist 1: Bab +4,
7) Evangelist 2: Bab +4, Weapon Focus: IUS (lvl 7), Pummeling Charge* (WP Style)
8) Evangelist 3: Bab +5, +1 Str
9) Evangelist 4: Bab +6/+1, Deflect Arrows (lvl 9)
10) Evangelist 5: Bab +7/+2
11) Evangelist 6: Bab +7/+2, Divine Interference (lvl 11)
12) Evangelist 7: Bab +8/+3, +1 Str

*Retrain Free Style feat to Pummeling Charge at 9th level.

HP: 92
AC: 34
Skill Points: 64
Ki Pool: 10

FoB: 6/6/1/1 + 7str + 1wfocus IUS + 5dpower + 3gmw + 1ioun = 23/23/18/18
Full-Attack w/ Ki Strike: 23/23/23/23/18/18

Dmg: 1d10 + 7str + 5dpower + 3gmw = 1d10 + 15 + 2d6
Full-Attack Dmg: 6d10 + 90 + 12d6 (holy AoMF)

Strike of the Endless – blindness 1d4 rounds, 3/day, DC 25 Fort
Agonizing Blow – nauseated for 10 rounds and takes 2d6 nonlethal each round, 1/day, DC 25 Fort

This Shelyn build may be my best build so far?

Shelyn Flurrying Warpriest:

Human:
STR 14
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 16+2
CHA 7
5,2,5,2,10,-4

Traits: Divine Favor, Magical Knack: Warpriest
1st Blessing: Defense or Luck or Air
2nd Blessing: Love subdomain

1) Unchained Monk 1: Bab +1, Power Attack (lvl 1), Deific Obedience (human), Combat Reflexes (monk)
2) Warpriest 1: Bab +1, WFocus: Glaive (WP)
3) Warpriest 2: Bab +2, Quicken Blessing: Charming Presence (lvl 3)
4) Warpriest 3: Bab +3, Channel Smite (WP), +1 Wis
5) Warpriest 4: Bab +4, Guided Hand (lvl 5)
6) Evangelist 1: Bab +4,
7) Evangelist 2: Bab +5, Diverse Obedience (lvl 7)
8) Evangelist 3: Bab +6, WSpecialization: Glaive (WP), +1 Wis
9) Evangelist 4: Bab +7/+2, Crusader’s Flurry (lvl 9)
10) Evangelist 5: Bab +7/+2
11) Evangelist 6: Bab +8/+3, Divine Interference (lvl 11), Greater WFocus: Glaive (WP)
12) Evangelist 7: Bab +9/+4, +1 Wis

HP: 93
AC: 33 (Swift action Charming Presence, DC 22)
Skill Points: 78
Attack: 9/4bab + 5dpower + 7wis + 1ioun + 2 morale + 3weap + 2wfocus + 2sacredweap =
Full-Attack: 31/31/31/26 -3 power attack = 28/28/28/23
Dmg: 3str + 5dpower + 2morale + 3weap + 2wspec + 2sacredweap + 9 power attack = 1d10 + 23
1d10

PA Full-Attack: 28/28/28/23 (30/30/30/25 vs evil w/ Glorious Might boon)
Dmg: 1d10 + 23 per hit
Full-Attack Dmg: 4d10 + 92

Plumed Blade: Free action add Holy + Shock to weapon, 3rounds/day

The search for the perfect Irorian build:

HELP, lol!

I'm having a hard time figuring out the best way to build the Irorian idea still. Unarmed Strike is his favored weapon, yet sacred fist FoB is pretty rough as you can see from the Zon-Kuthon build. Debating on a straight up "Unchained Monk1/Arsenal Chaplain4/Evangelist Prestige 7", "Sacred Fist 5/Evangelist Prestige 7", or an "Unchained Monk1/Ecclesitheurge Cleric 4/Evangelist Prestige 7".

The different benefits would be..

Arsenal Chaplain variant = Roughly a good +5-7atk and damage per hit.
Sacred Fist variant = Ki Pool & Pummeling Style + Pummeling Charge
Ecclesitheurge variant = 1/2 price AoMF bonded object, cast 1 spell spontaneously of any level, more & higher level spells.

Going unarmed seems better on Ecclesitheurge variant and Sacred Fist variant due to their benefits which allows for high Wis mod to boost AC, Spell DC's, more spell slots, better will saves.

Evangelist 2nd boon is beneficial only for unarmed strike also...so it's either a waste if using a weapon....or I'd have to waste a feat (Diverse Obedience) to swap it for something else more useful.

Arsenal Chaplain I have to go more MAD to use a weapon, which forces me to wear armor, have less spell slots, less fervor, lower will save, etc.

Let me know what you think of the Zon-Kuthon build, the Shelyn build, and also what direction is probably best for the Irorian build. Having a hard time on that last one (while trying to fit in Evangelist prestige for the insane skill points)...

Sovereign Court

Well after some more crunching here's the 3 Irorian builds.

Ecclesitheurge Monk:

Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack: Cleric

Domains
Primary: Fist
Secondary: Restoration

Human:
STR 14
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 16+2
CHA 7
5,2,5,2,10,-4

1) Monk 1: Bab +1, Weapon Focus: IUS (lvl 1), Deific Obedience (human), Deflect Arrows (Monk)
2) Ecclesitheurge Cleric 1: Bab +1,
3) Ecclesitheurge Cleric 2: Bab +2, Channel Smite (lvl 3)
4) Ecclesitheurge Cleric 3: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Ecclesitheurge Cleric 4: Bab +4, Guided Hand (lvl 5)
6) Evangelist 1: Bab +4,
7) Evangelist 2: Bab +5, Dragon Style (lvl 7)
8) Evangelist 3: Bab +6, +1 Wis
9) Evangelist 4: Bab +7/+2, Dragon Ferocity (lvl 9)
10) Evangelist 5: Bab +7/+2
11) Evangelist 6: Bab +8/+3, Divine Interference (lvl 11)
12) Evangelist 7: Bab +9/+4, +1 Wis

HP: 93
AC: 32
Skill Points: 78 & +4 to all knowledges obedience
Bonded Object: Amulet of Mighty Fist (1/2 price upgrades and spontaneously cast 1 spell of any level)

Attack: 9/4 + 7wis + 3gmw + 1wfocus + 5dpower + 1ioun = 26/26/26/21
Full-Attack: 26/26/26/21

Dmg: 1d6 + 12(9)str + 3gmw + 5dpower +5domain = 1d6 + 25(22) + 3d6(holy/shocking)
Full-Attack Dmg: 4d6 + 91 + 12d6 (Holy Shocking AoMF)....roughly 141dmg total.

Even though the Ecclesitheurge build shows pretty good damage I think it may be the weakest due to the lack of swift buffing via Fervor. It also has the lowest AC (I'm factoring in Shield of Faith which caught off guard is -4ac). Also, I added Holy/Shocking to AoMF since it's easier to Enchant due to being a Bonded Object. Even though it has more & higher level spells, the buffing time might be too much.

Sacred-Fist Irorian:

Human:
STR 12
DEX 14+2
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 16+2
CHA 7
2,5,5,2,10,-4

1st domain: Strength
2nd domain: Healing

1) Sacred Fist 1: Bab +0, Dodge (lvl 1), IUS (WP)
2) Sacred Fist 2: Bab +1,
3) Sacred Fist 3: Bab +2, Pummeling Style (lvl 3)
4) Sacred Fist 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Sacred Fist 5: Bab +3, Deific Obedience (lvl 5)
6) Evangelist 1: Bab +4,
7) Evangelist 2: Bab +4, Weapon Focus: IUS (lvl 7), Pummeling Charge* (WP Style)
8) Evangelist 3: Bab +5, +1 Wis
9) Evangelist 4: Bab +6/+1, Deflect Arrows (lvl 9)
10) Evangelist 5: Bab +7/+2
11) Evangelist 6: Bab +7/+2, Divine Interference (lvl 11)
12) Evangelist 7: Bab +8/+3, +1 Wis

HP: 92
AC: 39
Skill Points: 64
Ki Pool: 12

Attack: 8/3 + 5dpower + 1 wfocus + 3gmw + 1ioun + 7wis +1 haste = 24/24/19/19
Full-Attack w/ Haste & Ki Strike: 24/24/24/24/19/19

Dmg: 1d10 + 5dpower + 3gmw + 5agile AoMF = 1d10 + 13
Total Dmg: 6d10 + 78dmg Pummeling

AC calculation: 1dodge + 2grace + 3bracer + 7wis + 5dex + 4sofaith + 2monk +1ioun +1mrobes +3mvest = 39

The SFist build is a bit limited but it sports a Ki Pool, the highest AC (without fighting defensively), and Pummeling Style + Pummeling Charge. The to-hit bonuses may not be strong enough for most attacks to connect though?

Arsenal Chaplain Irorian:

Human:
STR 16+2
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14+2
CHA 7
10,2,5,2,5,-4

Blessing: War

1) Unchained Monk 1: Bab +1, FREE (human), Combat Reflexes (monk)
2) Warpriest 1: Bab +1, WFocus: 9-Ring Broadsword (WP)
3) Warpriest 2: Bab +2, Dodge (lvl 3)
4) Warpriest 3: Bab +3, Power Attack (WP), +1 Str
5) Warpriest 4: Bab +4, Deific Obedience (lvl 5)
6) Evangelist 1: Bab +4,
7) Evangelist 2: Bab +5, Martial Focus (lvl 7)
8) Evangelist 3: Bab +6, WSpecialization: 9-Ring (WP), +1 Str
9) Evangelist 4: Bab +7/+2, Difficult Swings (lvl 9)
10) Evangelist 5: Bab +7/+2
11) Evangelist 6: Bab +8/+3, Divine Interference (lvl 11), Greater WFocus: 9-Ring (WP)
12) Evangelist 7: Bab +9/+4, +1 Str

HP: 92
AC: 32
Skill Points: 66

Attack: 9/4 + 5dpower + 2 wfocus + 3gmw + 1ioun + 7str +1 haste +2sweap + 3wtraining -3pa = 30/25
Flurry Full-Attack w/ Haste: 30/30/30/25

Dmg: 1d8 + 10str + 9pa + 3gmw + 2wspec + 2sweap + 3wtraining + 5dpower = 1d8 + 34dmg
[/b]Total Dmg: 4d8 + 136[/b]

AC calculation: 10base + 5 dodge wisdom + 1 dodge feat + 2 dodge protective grace + 1 insight ioun + 3dex + 3mvest + 4 deflection shield of faith + 3bracers = 32ac

The Arsenal build unsurprisingly wins hands down on to-hit bonuses and reaches 1st place in dmg. There's some extra room for swapping some feats in/out while still getting Difficult Swings, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.

------

Just with my initial feelings, I think the Sacred Fist and Arsenal Chaplain builds might be the best. Not sure which would be better. I also think the Shelyn build would be really strong with Charm and Air blessings.


Quicken Blessing can't be taken until 10. The Shelyn build can't flurry with their Guided Hand glaive until 9, which is kind of brutal for their first 8 levels; if using Crusader's Flurry and Guided Hand on a Sacred Fist, I would get Crusader's online by 5 or even 3 with retraining, and get Guided Hand by at least 7.

PFS doesn't allow Arcane Bond crafting in the usual way; you could get half-price Holy on AoMF, but that's it. Deliquescent Gloves are pretty nice though.

The Ecclesitheurge is crossing Dragon Style with low STR, which is very weak. I would make it STR based, and take Crane Style + Dragon Style with Combat Style Master.

Sacred Fist works much better with a weapon in two hands and Power Attack. They can grab sansetsukon or 9-ring proficiency at level 1.


I think that last arsenal build is what you've been working towards. There are some interesting things you could do with a Shelyn-worshipping warpriest but they're A) not what you did here and B) nothing much to do with your concept as far as I can tell.


Actually as far as Sacred Fist goes, I'm gonna walk that comment about weapons back a bit - if you're a Sacred Fist 5/ Evangelist 6 with a Monk's Robe and you get to use the Inevitable Fist ability to make your unarmed strikes deal 3d6 damage, then unarmed strike looks a lot more competitive. Of course this doesn't actually work until level 11, and unarmed strike is still weak in other ways.

Sovereign Court

BadBird wrote:
Actually as far as Sacred Fist goes, I'm gonna walk that comment about weapons back a bit - if you're a Sacred Fist 5/ Evangelist 6 with a Monk's Robe and you get to use the Inevitable Fist ability to make your unarmed strikes deal 3d6 damage, then unarmed strike looks a lot more competitive. Of course this doesn't actually work until level 11, and unarmed strike is still weak in other ways.

The issue with the majority of these builds is that by not using Irori's favored weapon I'm having to go off STR for to-hit which causes everything else to suffer: Lower AC, Lower Will save, Less Spell slots, Lower Spell DC's, Less Fervor, Less Blessings, and Lower Perception. Some of these are not a big deal but added up as a whole it's quite a bit, especially my unarmored AC to rely on not getting hit.

1) I can't choose Hei-Feng as a deity even though his favored weapon is 9-Ring Broadsword. He doesn't have any Evangelist prestige write-up or Obedience.
2) Irori works but you don't get the 1.5x str or 1.5x dmg from power attack with a fist. There's the benefit of Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge though. The obedience is also nice and the 2nd boon, although late is beneficial.
3) Nethys fixes this issue as Sacred Fist or as Arsenal Chaplain since the quarterstaff can be FoB'ed and to-hit goes off Wisdom with Guided Hand.

Wish there was a way to go 9-Ring Broadsword or Monk's Spade while keeping Irori as the deity and not tanking my AC.

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