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In an effort to not drag another thread off-topic as this forum has a distinct sensitivity to such, I'm going to try to continue a discussion about what makes for a good AP here.
My personal criteria for what makes for a good paid adventure are as follows:
1) It has to have solid art. I don't need to be blown away but I want to have a good feel for the character of the region and a face for all the important NPCs and baddies.
2) Maps should be clear, but they don't need to be detailed down to the five-foot square*. Use your descriptions to tell me what the character of the room is, what the disposition of the enemies is like, and if there are any surprises. I can easily do the rest.
3) Give me interesting systems I can easily repurpose. Show me your mastery of the game's mechanics and the ways you've expanded upon them.
4) Take care of the hard work for me. Give me stats, give me encounter tables, give me tokens and stands. If you're going to detail maps to the square give me those too.
5) In addition to 4, if your game is a dungeon crawl tell me how you expect the dungeon to respond to changes the players make. Is that owlbear likely to move into the cave the goblins are currently in if the PCs clear them out and then go off to rest? Are the orcs likely to come running to the aid of the ogre when he bellows for aid, is the ogre likely to aid the orcs if they do the same?
I'd also like to see details of routines, what might break said routines, and the reactions or lack of reactions to the invasion of the dungeon by the PCs. Make it feel real and alive not just in static design features like sources of water and kitchens but in how the occupants actually live their lives and what the complex ecosystem would look like even if the PCs never showed up.
6) Make the story broad and changeable. I'm here to cut down on prep and appreciate the mechanical side of things been done for me but I know my players better than you do and will likely change a lot of details. The less I have to rewrite the better.
7) Design things as if the players will fail. I know that Paizo's bread and butter sales come from APs, but as a GM I want to open a book and have it feel like the players have a real shot at not seeing the end of the adventure. This doesn't mean I want the most killed dungeon you can devise, it means setting the tone and writing bad guys that play for keeps. That Lich isn't an idiot, so write him as if he was your personal character and you want him to succeed at his plan.
That's my list. I suspect that many will tell me that this isn't PF2 or point out that company X that I'm known to like doesn't write adventures this way. I don't care, I know what I like and I'm interested to see if PF2 and Paizo can meet those needs.
*For use at a real table where I'm likely to hand draw them. Adventures designed around VTTs need different touches and likely shouldn't have the same design process as those for play at a physical table.
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I know what I like and I'm interested to see if PF2 and Paizo can meet those needs.
Then what's there to discuss? Paizo has published three adventures, four adventure paths, a one-shot, nine Bounties, and eighteen scenarios. Surely you can figure out from two years of material whether or not the system can meet your needs.
Paizo staff aren't going to argue with you if you decide it's not for you. They aren't trying to please everyone. And if you aren't pleased, it's not likely to change the trajectory of their company.
These forums aren't a place to start arguments about whether or not you approve of Paizo's products. This thread looks to me like bait.
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My list is real similar, but im not that picky about dungeon ecology. From my PF1 AP experience (pretty extensive) I found most of the first to third books fit the bill. The latter books are more like megadungeons which do have extensively written ecologies (so maybe those would be to the OP's liking?) and less fiction, detailed NPC communities, and social encounters. Those, I dont much care for.
I'm just starting to get my feet wet with PF2, so im not sure if the PF1 experience will hold or break.
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I know what I like and I'm interested to see if PF2 and Paizo can meet those needs.Then what's there to discuss? Paizo has published three adventures, four adventure paths, a one-shot, nine Bounties, and eighteen scenarios.
Surely you can figure out from two years of material whether or not the system can meet your needs.
Paizo staff aren't going to argue with you if you decide it's not for you. They aren't trying to please everyone. And if you aren't pleased, it's not likely to change the trajectory of their company.
These forums aren't a place to start arguments about whether or not you approve of Paizo's products. This thread looks to me like bait.
Which of my 7-points is something that Paizo couldn't do in an AP? What they have done is easy. I'm challenging them to push themselves and try something new rather than sticking with the "easy" style of AP that they're used to making.
They don't have to listen, but if they made an AP anything like what I've asked for I'd buy 10 and hand them out at my FLGS once it's safe to do so. Paizo can make me a fan if they devoted one or two yearly adventure slots to something really out there and different from most of the usual fantasy D&D adjacent stuff that gets churned out year over year.
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My list is real similar, but im not that picky about dungeon ecology. From my PF1 AP experience (pretty extensive) I found most of the first to third books fit the bill. The latter books are more like megadungeons which do have extensively written ecologies (so maybe those would be to the OP's liking?) and less fiction, detailed NPC communities, and social encounters. Those, I dont much care for.
I'm just starting to get my feet wet with PF2, so im not sure if the PF1 experience will hold or break.
Dungeon ecology has become more of a thing for me as video games get better at modeling it. Even older games like Skyrim try to mimic a real town to the best of the engine's limits. Something like a living dungeon app that connects to each published adventure and pops up interesting things that might be happening in your version of the dungeon could be the next big thing in TTRPGs.
I think for this to be useful conversation you'd need to point out some products that are up to your standards. If nothing else page count is a serious problem with the level of detail you want.
Unfortunately, pointing to products you like better is also likely to ignite edition war nonsense that will end in deleted posts and a locked thread, but what are you gonna do.
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I don't know if this is exactly the direction you were going with your post but it sort of feels like it so I am going to mostly agree with your points in that:
I want Paizo to stop pushing 6 part APs forever, they're too long and the space allotted in each AP is woefully short on page count to actually prepare a GM with even a small number of unexpected developments or derails that are inevitable. I have totally given up on the idea of ever finishing a 6 part AP and I feel that I'm probably not alone in this, spending money on them really does feel like a waste after trying my hardest to run Kingmaker, Carrion Crown, Jade Regent, WotR, Serpent's Skull, and Iron Gods where no matter the group or play method the interest waned right in the middle of book two or three.
I would prefer seeing every AP from here out released in two formats, one softcover staggered release for 3 part adventures, each book with at least 40% more page count, and extra material that covers approximately 1 more character level of an adventure than the current four-level span they typically use, and then ALSO (once the 3rd part is released) a Hardcover book with ALL AP material included in it, packaged in a box that ships with Pawns + Bases, Flipmaps for EVERY major encounter area, two softcover printed Player's Guides, copies of any "handout" type thing that's part of the adventure, and a set of dice. Make it like the BB except instead of the intro stuff for brand new players what the GM gets is everything they need to run THAT Adventure all in one box. Charge $200 - $250 USD for it, I don't care, just put it all together in an attractive box and give me a single solid book instead of 3-6 softcovers in a package that's attractively designed.
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I would prefer seeing every AP from here out released in two formats, one softcover as they are released now but with at least 40% more page count and material that covers approximately 1 more character level of an adventure than the current four-level span they use, and then ALSO (once the 3rd part is released) a Hardcover book with ALL AP material included in it, packaged in a box that ships with Pawns + Bases, Flipmaps for EVERY major encounter area, two softcover printed Player's Guides, copies of any "handout" type thing that's part of the adventure, and a set of dice.
So, they should spend a whole bunch of time and money printing books nobody is going to buy because they can just wait for the compiled version?
There's a reason why every anniversary edition AP they've done has been years old and for an outdated version of the game.
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So, they should spend a whole bunch of time and money printing books nobody is going to buy because they can just wait for the compiled version?
There's a reason why every anniversary edition AP they've done has been years old and for an outdated version of the game.
People pre-order video games that are literally unplayable at launch. Gamers will pay to be the first to experience a new adventure and Paizo could even push out 'Day 1 editions' that come with little extras - that are cheap when ordered in bulk - and charge a few extra bucks for it. People will eat those up if only for the chance that they go up in value someday.
Paizo, and the TTRPG industry as a whole, should modernize and ditch any bits of tradition that aren't growing their brand or making their game into the next big thing.
but if they made an AP anything like what I've asked for I'd buy 10 and hand them out at my FLGS once it's safe to do so.
And if 20 people don't like it and stop buying then your 10 purchased copies doesn't offset the loss.
And I don't believe you that you're going to spend $1500 on an AP, all 6 volumes.
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So, they should spend a whole bunch of time and money printing books nobody is going to buy because they can just wait for the compiled version?
There's a reason why every anniversary edition AP they've done has been years old and for an outdated version of the game.
Yes, in fact, most of the biggest and successful video and even tabletop board games in the market LITERALLY work this way almost as a rule.
People who want to play through the story as the chapters are released instead of waiting would end up with a version that is GOING to see changes, tweaks, and corrections that are uncovered over the release window of the installments and I think that is a GOOD thing. If people, like myself, are generally wrapped up in other ongoing games I have very little incentive to pick up volume 1 of a 6 part AP when I know for a FACT that I'll never be able to finish the whole adventure. If I can instead pick up a finished product with polish and all the bells/whistles 6-12 months after the first of the installment (part 1 of 3) is released that has everything I need, I'd gladly do so even if I'm not sure I'll actually run the game because... I'll have everything I need, even if that means it takes another four months to ship the big box after others already have the softcover in their hands.
Maybe these kinds of premium boxes should be something that has to be pre-ordered or subscribed to so they know approx how much demand there is and simply make an extra X,XXX copies to offer for general sale at special events, give away as promotions, and invariably compete with the customers who bought them so they can be resold when the supply dries up.
I say "go off queen" and triple the markup margins you make no, Eric, I'm talking to you. The Paizo "Whales" cannot keep the company going forever if you continue to make sure that the choosiest of beggars doesn't balk too hard at the price of your books, you're not selling APs to the average player, at least not with the kind of thing I'm talking about, you'd be selling this to the people who have entire rooms of their home (or second home) dedicated ONLY to TTopRPG books, minis, and art. You know dozens of people with gaming tables and dungeon rooms with nerd apparel and decorations all over the wall from "stuffed dragon heads" to literally hidden passages in their homes. Make it look GOOD, maybe even hire artisans so create 50-100 of these with wooden boxes, actual later bindings (none of that cheap particle "genuine-leather" stuff that is effectively flesh plywood), metal dice, maps printed on latex dry-erase grids, and real parchment handouts. Price them in the TRULY absurd range, but focus on the quality.
This is only my 2c but failing to deliver more expensive books is only going to continue to cause the company profits to shrink year after year and drive authors and talent into better paying fields, games, or system development.
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And if 20 people don't like it and stop buying then your 10 purchased copies doesn't offset the loss.
20 more people might like it too. Paizo wouldn't know unless they tried and market research simply can't test for this.
And I don't believe you that you're going to spend $1500 on an AP, all 6 volumes.
No, I'd buy the first part for the giveaway and people can decide from there if they like it enough to consider buying part 2. I'd buy part 2 for myself and, if the quality stayed high, I'd look to run it.
And if 20 people don't like it and stop buying then your 10 purchased copies doesn't offset the loss.20 more people might like it too. Paizo wouldn't know unless they tried and market research simply can't test for this.
And I don't believe you that you're going to spend $1500 on an AP, all 6 volumes.No, I'd buy the first part for the giveaway and people can decide from there if they like it enough to consider buying part 2. I'd buy part 2 for myself and, if the quality stayed high, I'd look to run it.
So $250 then? Still not believing you.
Again, maybe this doesn't mean much but for SURE Verdyn and I rarely see eye to eye when it comes to these games but I have to back up their point. If I could buy it all in one attractive package $250 USD isn't a price I'd be upset with at all. The fact that this is only done with an extremely limited release for their oldest and best-selling APs is a mistake in my eyes. I would stop buying X/6 AP print books forever and probably just wait until I get my high-quality all-in-one package.
I still have my collector's edition copy of Skyrim, statue and all and I've never once had buyer's remorse despite having already owned the game in two other formats previously and that I've never actually even USED the Disc that came with the product.
Again, maybe this doesn't mean much but for SURE Verdyn and I rarely see eye to eye when it comes to these games but I have to backup their point, again, if I could buy it all in one attractive package $250 USD isn't a price I'd be upset with at all.
That's not Verdyn saying that, that was Themetricsystem. Verdyn said if they put out an AP that met his 7 point improvement plan he'd buy 10 copies to giveaway at his FLGS once it is safe to do so.
1 AP costs $24.99 so $25.00. 10 copies would be $250.
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A lot of marketing 'experts' here. I suspect Paizo actually has people doing market research and they don't seem like a 'boom or bust' company.
What does 'modernise' actually mean?
Are there examples of good adventures/campaigns that you can give that satisfy your demands?
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Again, maybe this doesn't mean much but for SURE Verdyn and I rarely see eye to eye when it comes to these games but I have to backup their point, again, if I could buy it all in one attractive package $250 USD isn't a price I'd be upset with at all.That's not Verdyn saying that, that was Themetricsystem.
Tristan, Person-Man and Themetricsystem are the same person. He's just using an alias to support his primary account's posts.
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I don't always love Verdyn's posts either (they seem like they've just got an axe to grind with Pathfinder 2e, really they should just relax and enjoy it), but personally I would love to see adventuring spaces that don't have to be on a linear plotline-- its why the only adventure I've really wanted to buy is Malevolence, Abomination Vaults and maybe Kingmaker.
I've actually been debating for a while trying to create dungeons in a wiki format, to kind of create a decentralized adventuring space, where exploring the space, gaining treasure, and unraveling its mysteries is the emphasis, over a singular plotline with a BBEG.
I don't think it would be a bad thing if Paizo played with their format, although I think we're seeing that, with Abomination Vaults as a megadungeon and the first book of Jade Phoenix being a hexcrawl.
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As far as appealing to collectors who are willing to spend absurd amounts of money on their gaming hobby to obtain limited edition items, I suspect the Life-Sized Goblin is an attempt to gauge how big that market is.
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What does 'modernise' actually mean?
I'd like to see boardgame style app integration both with the core rules and adventures. You pay for the book, scan a QR code, and the app unlocks that content for you so you can bring the automation of a VTT to your in-person beer and pretzels gaming night.
With such an app, you tap a button to send an attack or spell against a legal target. The game declares a hit or miss and reads your sheet to see if you have a hero point or other luck mitigating feature ready. From there it tells you the damage you did and the GM (or you) describes the attack. It takes the math and rules work off of the players while leaving all the RP options on the table.
For adventures, it could present a living map that follows simple rules that allow more 'living' worlds in ways that are easy to conceptualize and code but that would be hard to print in a physical book.
No TTRPG has done this yet but more and more board games are doing it and TT war games (40k, AoS, Warmahordes, etc.) have had apps for years now.
Are there examples of good adventures/campaigns that you can give that satisfy your demands?
None that do everything right. My wishlist is really me asking for the best bits from a few companies that each do part of this well.
Mainly, I'm just bored of 1-to-20 fantasy games that start in a village, wind through a couple of cookie-cutter dungeons, and end with the party fighting some BBEG. If I wanted that I could scrape the internet and find a dozen well-made fan adventures of a similar type for free. If I'm going to drop as much money on one of Paizo's adventures as I could on an entire indy RPG on Itch I expect to be blown away but how much better it is than the fan stuff.
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2) Maps need to be detailed down to the 5 foot square, because Paizo cannot, and should not, be trying to determine who gets to play what AP and how.
I never said they couldn't be more detailed. I just don't want a detailed map to substitute for a rock-solid description of the dungeon. Give me enough descriptive detail that I could draw the map myself using the descriptions and a rough but undetailed floorplan.
3) Plenty of Paizo AP's have had some kind of subsystem. Kingdom Management, Caravan Management, or even something simple like local renown. It's not needed in every single adventure though.
Some of them do indeed do that, but why aren't these kinds of rules for relatively common tasks in a core book? I want a step beyond that, give me rules for waddling around a dungeon in a malfunctioning gnome contraption or for fighting in a room where gravity shifts randomly.
I want the kind of rules that would make an MMO dungeon stand out, not just. You can invest x gold to gain y improvement at location z style hum-drum.
4) Literally every adventure path does this.
Where did I claim that they didn't?
5) Plenty of adventures give information on each room and a brief background of it's occupants and why they spend time in that room or are currently there. Paizo trying to map out how they will react to every single possible stimulus is a waste of page count, that's your job as the GM.
I find that Paizo often doesn't give nearly enough detail. This can lead to one group experiencing a TPK because they combined encounters and another group fighting each dungeon as if it were a series of challenges floating in the void. I'd expect an adventure to allow even a novice GM to easily simulate a living dungeon.
6) Then you don't want an AP, you want a Bestiary and maybe a map pack.
Nonsense. Read pages 232 to 250 of Cyberpunk 2020's 2nd edition rulebook and you'll see a bunch of two-page adventure stubs that do exactly this. They give enough setting-specific details to be unique to that game but are light enough on specifics that they can fit snuggly into your game.
Each gives the GM every important detail that needs to be listed and expects you to use the Fast and Dirty Expendables section from Page 30 to flesh out exactly what flavor of goon that's trying to kill your players this time. It helps that Cyberpunk doesn't expect you to play it on a grid so they can save space on maps but even PF2 could run these types of side adventures without that level of detail.
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What do I look for in an AP.
1. The story has to interest me. If it doesn't have an interesting story I think I can turn into a fun adventure, then the AP will die right there. I want to be engaged in the goals and be able to engage my players in the goals of the adventure.
2. Interesting villains. I DM a lot. I want to have villains that make worthwhile enemies. They should be interesting to roleplay and be able to challenge the players in battle.
3. Challenging. I want the adventure to be challenging. I don't want the players to be able to walk over it. The designers should take into account player capabilities when designing the adventures. What kinds of abilities they're expected to have and design challenges with player capability in mind.
4. Magic items. A good mix of magic items with items unique to the AP.
5. Maps. Good maps with sufficient space for the creatures and players to fight that make sense strategically and thematically.
6. A good conclusion. I like an epic conclusion to the AP. Something that makes the players feel like they've done something great.
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I agree with a lot of Deriven Firelion's points. Interesting story, interesting villains, difficult challenges, good maps and an epic conclusion are definitely what I'm looking for.
I would expand on Magic Items and say robust and interesting material after the adventure portion of each volume in general. I am not going to play or GM most APs, but I still love the new content that comes out in the back of books. Magic Items, feats, archetypes, ancestries, bestiaries, settlement writeups, and setting articles are useful to me even if I never GM the AP. Nothing against them, I just don't play as fast as Paizo publishes and I don't particularly want them to slow down either.
Regarding the OP points, I largely agree though I suspect I'm not looking for them in quite the same ways as the OP. I only need the dungeon ecology and the details on what happens if the party fails in broad strokes. Basic motivations, a general sense of what's next, and an understanding of who is allied with whom is plenty for me. I'll flesh out the rest, and I'd rather much of that page space go to other things. I need the maps detailed fairly well, even the best descriptions without an accompanying map is hard for me to construct on my own, and since I shifted to VTT I greatly prefer having interesting and colorful maps to show my players to sketching something with the drawing tools on my own. And I like subsystems, but I don't need new ones in every adventure. I'd rather examples of subsystems that already exist in action over unique subsystems to apply elsewhere most of the time.
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For the talk of modernising systems and other significant changes from the formula, I'd say an AP isn't your best bet for getting that started. They're a significant source of Paizo's revenue, and as a monthly release, their most consistent source. If you're pushing for it, it seems far more likely you'll get some buy-in for applying digitisation to a One Shot or Adventure, and a very in-depth dungeon with a large amount of ecology-style information in an Adventure. That being said, I think it's unreasonable to expect too much digital integration into any of these products - asking Paizo to make a phone app that accurately automates all possible character options (including house rules somehow?) seems a recipe for disaster, regardless of theories about marketing. Paizo's not a tech company - that's a complicated thing to make, and would require a significant investment of resources, which Paizo really shouldn't be doing instead of focusing on tRPGs.
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I'll admit I'm only skimming this thread, but have we gotten any examples of a product that does live up to these standards?
For the talk of modernising systems and other significant changes from the formula, I'd say an AP isn't your best bet for getting that started. They're a significant source of Paizo's revenue, and as a monthly release, their most consistent source. If you're pushing for it, it seems far more likely you'll get some buy-in for applying digitisation to a One Shot or Adventure, and a very in-depth dungeon with a large amount of ecology-style information in an Adventure. That being said, I think it's unreasonable to expect too much digital integration into any of these products - asking Paizo to make a phone app that accurately automates all possible character options (including house rules somehow?) seems a recipe for disaster, regardless of theories about marketing. Paizo's not a tech company - that's a complicated thing to make, and would require a significant investment of resources, which Paizo really shouldn't be doing instead of focusing on tRPGs.
There's also other people doing the tech stuff-- PF2 keeps getting better and better on Foundry.
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I'll admit I'm only skimming this thread, but have we gotten any examples of a product that does live up to these standards?
Can't speak for others, but for the most part the APs I've GM'd have lived up to the ones I talked about. Sometimes they are missing a map here and there and a lot of the older adventures have maps that are hard to work with in VTT, but otherwise the AP line is what I'm looking for in an AP line.
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I'll admit I'm only skimming this thread, but have we gotten any examples of a product that does live up to these standards?For the talk of modernising systems and other significant changes from the formula, I'd say an AP isn't your best bet for getting that started. They're a significant source of Paizo's revenue, and as a monthly release, their most consistent source. If you're pushing for it, it seems far more likely you'll get some buy-in for applying digitisation to a One Shot or Adventure, and a very in-depth dungeon with a large amount of ecology-style information in an Adventure. That being said, I think it's unreasonable to expect too much digital integration into any of these products - asking Paizo to make a phone app that accurately automates all possible character options (including house rules somehow?) seems a recipe for disaster, regardless of theories about marketing. Paizo's not a tech company - that's a complicated thing to make, and would require a significant investment of resources, which Paizo really shouldn't be doing instead of focusing on tRPGs.There's also other people doing the tech stuff-- PF2 keeps getting better and better on Foundry.
For sure - and if your table really benefits from the automation, there are a variety of ways to use Foundry (or your VTT of choice) for your in-person gameplay too :)
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I'll admit I'm only skimming this thread, but have we gotten any examples of a product that does live up to these standards?
Regarding the standards set by the first post: not yet. It appears these are derived from the best features of multiple companies products, but no one of those companies does all of these things at once.
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To continue from other thread, I don't think flavor is that easy to do. Like yeah, its not hard to come up with something on fly, but its hard to make something interesting or that make sense on fly. Meanwhile I don't think its that hard to make "how does NPC in dungeon react to pcs doing x" up, that is how roleplaying basically works, you make up how character would react to current situation all the time anyway.
Like, I don't really need every single book detail what happens if PCs lose,(though it is nice skill challenges and such are often detailed) its usually pretty clear from stakes what happens, only final book needs to detail it because end game failure tends to shake status quo widely.
My experience in APs with bigger routines written into them is that those tend to be dungeons with less flavor in them because text space is used to describe inhabitant behavior instead. And as said, I think that is only necessary for stuff like "okay this dungeon has been designed both for combat, stealth and infiltration". Like straight up hack & slash dungeon crawls don't really need routines because 1) lot of dungeons are made to be rooms of challenges, so you don't really want to combine the encounters as gm 2) other dungeons are of the "everyone has their own territory and they prefer to avoid the other ones" 3) in case of dungeons that are locations that inhabitants defend, well what kind of defense it is if you rush all inhabitants into choke point instead of letting characters worn down themselves getting deeper? Not that "all enemies rush out in waves" dungeons don't work as well, but they aren't designed as dungeons, they are designed as single massive encounter(one of 1e aps has good example of that)
There is also that I don't think routine is necessary for all adventures because it doesn't make things inherently better, its just alternate way to present an adventure. Like biggest problem of routines is that 1) you can't account for all scenarios 2) players often break them anyway. But besides that, different designs have different preferences on how they design adventures, so I think trying to argue your own preference is the best one is pretty fruitless and would lead to more homogeneous adventures. Plus some gms like making up such reactions and routines themselves anyway.
Another thing is that you don't need super detailed routines to have living dungeon. Like Strange Aeon's final book has certain mansion scene that was so well written that my players played along with it even though they were aware they could perfectly cheese everyone in combat in it if they bothered to.
And I don't expect they will
Beadle and Grimm puts out deluxe editions that add maps and props to box sets that take a complete book and break it down into adventure path sized chunks. That’s sort of the opposite of a compilation.
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Wait, using Person-Man is dishonest? I mainly just switch to this alias for a somewhat less serious tone than my main, to express... I dunno, a haggard dude shrugging as if to say "This is just my opinion" or maybe "I dunno."
Anybody can see the main username easily enough, I absolutely wasn't trying to "pump my argument" or whatever seems to have been inferred but, if people see it that way, that's fine I guess.
/shrugs
Back on topic though, I actually get to PLAY as a PC in a game soon and we're doing Abomination Vaults. My expectations are mixed because what I expect and what I really WANT as a player are at odds with each other given the segmented nature of most previous APs, I'm hopeful the mega-dungeon nature can help keep the individual books and stories glued together more cohesively than other previous stories.
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/hands person-man a bowl of popcorn
Maybe AV will work out great for you. Im a player in the begining of it so far. Though, the GM gives zero story or NPC interaction. We were told to investigate a strange ruin and thats all we been doing.
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I would stop buying X/6 AP print books forever and probably just wait until I get my high-quality all-in-one package.
Which is why they don't want to do that. I'm not guessing at that; they've mentioned multiple times their business model revolves around their monthly AP.
I don't know enough to argue or defend this point, but they've consistently stated it as a reason to not compile books right away and not offer a PDF only subscription. Basically, if the physical AP line doesn't maintain more or less its current subscriber base, the line wouldn't be economically viable to produce at all.
I'm guessing that if they were ever in a position to simply discard the line, switch to a PDF only product, or switch completely to a compilation format like WotC, then there might be more options to work with. As it is, their sales volumes are simply too low to maintain both the monthly subscription and simultaneously offer alternatives for the same product that are in position to compete with it.
Yup, the monthly AP subscription is Paizo's bread and butter. It works for them as is, well enough that they have grown as a company the past five years or so and put out a second edition as well as a new game. Asking them to change that formula is asking them to gamble the future of the company.
Creative Director
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Yup, the monthly AP subscription is Paizo's bread and butter. It works for them as is, well enough that they have grown as a company the past five years or so and put out a second edition as well as a new game. Asking them to change that formula is asking them to gamble the future of the company.
Yup, except it's been closer to the past 20 years that we've been working on Adventure Paths in one form or the other. That whole time, up to and including now, we're constantly adjusting and shifting how we present them, in part due to reader feedback, so the sort of feedback we get on these boards is greatly appreciated. It's not the only thing we draw upon to work toward constantly improving Adventure Paths, and it can be tough at times trying to separate actual constructive criticism from other stuff, but it's still super useful.
That said, they are the way they are today as a result of that 20 year process. It's a formula that works very very VERY well for us. We'll continue tweaking and doing tiny incremental improvements as we go, but they're pretty solid performers as is.
The APs and the ease of running a game is what convinced me to run Pathfinder. I've been running games since '87 and they give me enough to do my thing without having to do loads of prep.
I'm a sucker for a fun sub-system like running a circus or kingdom building.
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First and foremost, I need a main storyline that makes sense and is interesting to me and my players. Paizo has done this with some of its APs, but often things stop making sense around episodes 4-5 and take a lot of fixing. This is frustrating and really dims my enthusiasm for the products--and APs are *all* I personally buy, so this is a big deal for me.
The ones that have come closest to end-to-end success for us, though in all but the first one modules #5 and #6 had some serious issues:
Iron Gods (I was surprised how well this ran)
Kingmaker
Rise of the Runelords
Ruins of Azlant
Several APs fell apart for us due to a bad mismatch between what the players and PCs would want to do, and what the modules insisted they should do: Reign of Winter, Second Darkness, Tyrant's Grasp, Hell's Rebels, Curse of the Crimson Throne. (I am currently running Tyrant's Grasp, which by my count does this *three times*. Ouch.)
We got a great game out of Council of Thieves, but I found out afterwards that maybe 25% of it was actually in the AP, and the GM did drastic things like reversing the order of #4 and #5. (The fact that this *worked*, without mechanics changes, tells you something.)
In many of the APs, the high levels are written with little or no attention to what high-level play is actually like, and they don't work logically or mechanically as a result: Ironfang Invasion and Carrion Crown were both big problems this way. The modules seem to assume a 15th level party won't have invisibility or flight or other very basic capabilities. This involves the GM in brutal amounts of fixing or the game is completely unchallenging.
If the PCs are facing the same kinds of foes throughout, even a party that isn't trying particularly hard will end up too strong against that kind of foe: Giantslayer turned into a complete pushover, despite my desperate attempts to beef it up, and I think Tyrant's Grasp likely will too. I like the idea of a focused AP but going up 15+ levels against the same foes just leads to massive over-optimization.
So, the wish list:
(1) Make sense
(2) Work for the stated levels
(3) Have a through-line that is interesting and satisfying
It's hard, I realize, because you're basically firing the AP on a ballistic trajectory--you can't make course corrections based on what happens--and hoping it will hit the target. For this reason I would favor shorter APs which do not all start at 1st level. I like long games but I don't actually enjoy 1-15+ and I can probably patch two short APs into a long one, if they are around the same levels.
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I'm confused about "making sense" part though? Like it kinda does come across that your table might have narrower standards for that part because I haven't felt like "most aps don't make sense" (plus usually in my case tables are willing to have leniency and follow breadcrumbs for what ap provides because they want to play the ap)