I am not putting this in the rules section because I am just curious as to how many people enforce this with reach weapons or monsters that have reach.
The rule:
When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
I have never enforced this, even after I found out about it, and no GM I have played under has ever enforced it. I was wondering if it is strange(abnormal) that I have never seen this enforced or if this is one of those rules that nobody(not literally) cares to use.
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I enforce it even on myself. It is pretty easy to move to avoid it.
My guy often enlarges to reach over soft cover.
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I use it too, and note that there's a specific feat (Phalanx Formation) that allows a character to avoid the penalty. If you house rule the penalty away, make sure no one accidentally takes the feat.
Add me to the list of people who use that rule. Everyone I know enforces it as well.
I enforce it even on myself. It is pretty easy to move to avoid it.
My guy often enlarges to reach over soft cover.
How do you 'reach over' soft cover?
I enforce it even on myself. It is pretty easy to move to avoid it.
My guy often enlarges to reach over soft cover.
How do you 'reach over' soft cover?
If you look at the board from a 3d standpoint a huge creature might have a clear line of attack. I don't think a large one will, but I'm also admittedly guessing that a huge character is big enough.
I'm also at a loss of how to make a PC huge without a polymorph spell.
So far it seems that my games as a player and GM are not standard with regard to this rule.
Interesting..
I use the rule all the time.
I make sure it is being enforced equitably.
I enforce it even on myself. It is pretty easy to move to avoid it.
My guy often enlarges to reach over soft cover.
How do you 'reach over' soft cover?
If you look at the board from a 3d standpoint a huge creature might have a clear line of attack. I don't think a large one will, but I'm also admittedly guessing that a huge character is big enough.
I'm also at a loss of how to make a PC huge without a polymorph spell.
That would be a House Rule, though, yeah? I don't think there's any RAW for something like that.
Maybe the low walls bit? I think soft cover can still follow all the other rules for cover like low walls, and partial cover, etc.
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That would be a House Rule, though, yeah? I don't think there's any RAW for something like that.
Maybe the low walls bit? I think soft cover can still follow all the other rules for cover like low walls, and partial cover, etc.
I don't see why that shouldn't apply to creatures.
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Wraithstrike,
I have always enforced it, and yes, you have played under a GM that enforced it. It just didn't affect you at the time. :)
I enforce it even on myself. It is pretty easy to move to avoid it.
My guy often enlarges to reach over soft cover.
How do you 'reach over' soft cover?
If you look at the board from a 3d standpoint a huge creature might have a clear line of attack. I don't think a large one will, but I'm also admittedly guessing that a huge character is big enough.
I'm also at a loss of how to make a PC huge without a polymorph spell.
That would be a House Rule, though, yeah? I don't think there's any RAW for something like that.
Maybe the low walls bit? I think soft cover can still follow all the other rules for cover like low walls, and partial cover, etc.
No the game is played in 3d. If someone is huge they take up 3 squares vertically also.
Another example is that a fireball with a 20 ft radius is not a flat disc, but had is 20 feet all the way around.
I enforce it even on myself. It is pretty easy to move to avoid it.
My guy often enlarges to reach over soft cover.
How do you 'reach over' soft cover?
Being large gives you 8 squares you can attack from. Plus large with a reach weapon usually allows you to attack 20 feet away. so if you have a buddy right in front of you and a bad guy 20 feet away you reach right over your friend attacking from your top square.
I've pointed this out multiple times, but nobody ever seems to believe me. Personally I think it's a fair limit to reach weapons, which are often very strong.
I enforce it, but it really doesn't come up very often. However, I have witnessed several occasions where it was ignored.
No the game is played in 3d. If someone is huge they take up 3 squares vertically also.
A lot of people think this makes sense, but it's not supported by the rules. Creatures do have height, and spell effects do extend vertically, but there's no vertical grid.
Huge creatures taking up only 3 vertical squares doesn't make sense, anyway. There are no huge creatures under 15' (3 squares) tall; most huge giants are over 20' tall. If a fireball was detonated 40' in the air, it would still affect most huge giants.
If one wanted to figure out how may vertical squares each creature occupied and House Rule a 3d-grid system to simplify 3d movement and combat, that would probably work great, but such a sytem isn't really defined or supported by the RAW.
Khudzlin,
3.5 had some rules regarding 3d that Pathfinder didn't bring along with (probably because they weren't in the SRD).
As a general rule, consider creatures to be as tall as their space, meaning that a creature can reach up a distance equal to its space plus its reach.
There were other rules which also covered height (such as squeezing) that are missing from PF.
So far it seems that my games as a player and GM are not standard with regard to this rule.
Interesting..
I don't think the groups I do play in or have played in enforce it for melee attacks either. I have read that rule before but it doesn't come up often so I guess I forgot.
OK, the writers, and, by extension, the rules are not perfect nor omniscient.
A person does not provide soft cover for a barn, but could reasonably interfere with the attacker using the mechanic of an Aid Another action, not to mention the expedient of keeping the attacker out of range of the barn.
Experiential evidence from battle lines and Holmgang recreations, your front line doesn't provide cover to your foes. Their "cover value" is balanced away by their "distraction value" against your foe. Your foe's front rank do supply cover to their second rank. Since the rules utterly fail reality on individual space requirements, second ranks are separated by 10 feet, and are generally out of range of standard reach attacks.
Note that space required to fight effectively is highly dependent on weapon type and fighting style. This is complex and hard to make rules for, so it was easier to just ignore it.
No the game is played in 3d. If someone is huge they take up 3 squares vertically also.A lot of people think this makes sense, but it's not supported by the rules. Creatures do have height, and spell effects do extend vertically, but there's no vertical grid.
Huge creatures taking up only 3 vertical squares doesn't make sense, anyway. There are no huge creatures under 15' (3 squares) tall; most huge giants are over 20' tall. If a fireball was detonated 40' in the air, it would still affect most huge giants.
If one wanted to figure out how may vertical squares each creature occupied and House Rule a 3d-grid system to simplify 3d movement and combat, that would probably work great, but such a sytem isn't really defined or supported by the RAW.
The rules never say that only horizontal squares are considered.
Flight is an example of vertical distance being a factor. Otherwise the creature that is one square over horizontally, but 30 feet up is in striking distance of someone on the ground.
Another example is if you are fighting a huge(tall) creature. Do you think that the creature can only hit someone who is 15 feet up from the ground or would it be 30 feet(15 for the vertical squares he occupies and another 15 for his reach)?
Ozy,
The discussion is about reach weapons/attacks.
In this case, 10 ft above you is certainly within range of a Reach attack.
You guys might want to start a new thread about 3-d combat . . .
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One problem, even if you use cubes for creatures, is that the soft cover rules require that you be able to trace a line from one corner of your square to every corner of the target's square without passing through another creature's square. If you're using a cube for the attacking creature, then you need to use one for the target creature as well. Let's say you have:
.
.
OOOTOOO
OOOCOOO
OOAAAOO
OOAAAOO
OOAAAOO
A = Attacker (huge, 15 foot space)
T = Target (medium, 5 foot space)
C = Ally/Enemy providing cover (medium, 5 foot space)
O = Open square.
A line from any corner that A chooses, even using cubes, still has to reach all of the corners of T's cube in order for T to not have cover. That includes the corners that T's cube shares with C's cube that are at ground level. It's not possible to draw a line from one of A's corners to both of those shared corners between T and C without passing through C's cube, for the same reasons it's not in 2D.
To illustrate another way:
1 2
3 4
5 6
T's square = 1,2,3,4
C's square = 3,4,5,6
Choosing a corner of A's square to the right of T can't reach corner 3 without crossing C's square. Choosing a corner to the left of T can't reach corner 4 without crossing C's square.
It doesn't matter how large A is. That will remain the case. I've seen this run wrong often.
Now, A will not actually have cover against T in this scenario, if T is attacking with a reach weapon. That's because:
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
So for a medium creature attacking a huge creature, it only needs to be able to trace a line from one of its corners to the four corners of any one square that the large creature occupies. (EDIT: A GM could rule that A has Partial Cover and grant it a +2 bonus to AC).
The low obstacle rule doesn't apply here, because at A's closest point to C, A and T are equidistant from C. C would have to be closer to the point A attacks from than to T in order for the low obstacle rule to apply.
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Anyway, to answer the original question, obviously I enforce it. It's a fairly major rule, with feats and traits designed around compensating for it. For PFS, at least, I'd encourage following the rule. For a home game, just be consistent and let players know how it works so there are no hard feelings.
Inconsistent use of the rule affects a LOT of things. Not just whether or not a character gets an AC bonus against the attack. It also affects whether or not creature A can take an attack of opportunity against creature T, which comes up in a lot of different situations (T making a ranged attack, trying to move away, casting a spell without casting defensively, standing up from prone, taking a potion out, drinking a potion, etc.) If you don't give T Soft Cover in that situation, you are giving the creature a huge (pun intended) advantage that is not in the rules of the game.
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I only play with one group, so I don't have a significant sample size, but we use the rule. Since Melee Tactics Toolbox came out, Phalanx Formation has been a staple for our reach builds.
You guys might want to start a new thread about 3-d combat . . .
No need. My question was sufficient to get the answer I wanted from Steve, assuming he replies.