I'm not sure if I'd say they were more complex but a lot of the occult classes ave a lot going on you've mentioned kineticist but there's also
Spiritualist which has to run a phantom which has two states of being and two distinct sets of abilities in each state, it also applies different buffs if it's out in your head or out and far away, it's different forms have different ranges on movement and you can get two different trees of power from it whilst it's in your head. On top of which the character itself has casting.
Occultist are often referred to as being a bit difficult to run, with multiple foci each of which has a resonant and a base power and you choose focus powers and your distraction of focus points dictates which powers you can use and which resonant powers you have active and a spell list which is tied closely to said foci. Not to mention item identification and UMD stuff and magic circles stuff and outsider binding. Most of that stuff if often ignored as there is so much going on with the class already. They also suffer from not really having enough of their key resource to do everything so they need foresight.
Mesmerist have a some stuff going on with hypnotic stare and the different bold stare debuffs they have, as well as touch treatments and tricks to keep track of. I often forget to implant tricks xD. They are more simple than the other two though you just need a cheat sheet for your stare. Oh and a spell list.
People often sight Magus as being super complex as well but I've never played one
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I'd say occultists have a lot to understand and plan up front, but once you've made all the key decisions about your build, actually playing them is no worse than most classes. But that initial understanding and setup period is probably the toughest to overcome for a player new to the class.
Medium could have the most moving parts of the occult classes in actual play, if you actually channel different spirits regularly instead of just picking one and sticking with it. Especially since you pick new options for the spirit each time you channel it, so it could be completely different each adventuring day.
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The warpriest has a lot to juggle: 2 Blessings that have limited per day uses, spell casting, sacred weapon and sacred armor, fervor limited uses per day to keep track of, bonus feats (that can treat warpriest levels as fighter levels for prerequisites), channel energy per day (uses fervor pool).
I figure there's a bunch of different kinds of complexity. For the Occult classes it's mostly a manner of bookkeeping. So tracking burn or mental focus and all the things they affect on a standard character sheet is a pain and a half, but if you set up a spreadsheet where you just need to alter the number in the "burn" (say) field and it will automatically update everything else, it's really easy.
Contrast to this something like the Magus, which has very intricate rules interactions (sometimes making distinctions between different flavors of "full round-action") and similarly having the classic issue of having to prepare spells. I hate playing anything that makes me prepare spells; I suffer badly from choice paralysis there.
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My wife found the inquisitor class much too complex in terms of moving parts once she reached level 3, and retrained. I've only played a pregen inquisitor but I really liked it. I tend to build and play characters with lots of options though, whereas my wife prefers to keep it simple.
My alchemist is getting fairly complicated in terms of tracking the number of active buffs he has (at level 8 including one level of fighter). I've taken to using an improvised tracking table on scratch paper.
I've got a Stone Oracle/Occultist Mystic Theurge that's pretty involved. Spellcasting aside both the Oracle and the Occultist have several class abilities that can get pretty squirrely when you mash them all together.
After that guy I started restricting myself to martial classes which tend to be front loaded with options in the planning phase but much much simpler to actually play.
The warpriest has a lot to juggle: 2 Blessings that have limited per day uses, spell casting, sacred weapon and sacred armor, fervor limited uses per day to keep track of, bonus feats (that can treat warpriest levels as fighter levels for prerequisites), channel energy per day (uses fervor pool).Ooh, thats a good one. And all of that before you get into archetypes that might trade things out for more complicated options. You know, i had some interest in the class during the playtest but since then its almost completely dropped off my radar. Funny enough, the few times i looked at the class i decided to go Inquisitor for the concept instead.
Also, the Warpriest bonus feats are set arent they? I mentioned the teamwork feats on the Inquisitor because they can change the feat a limited number of times per day, so you need to know which ones you qualify for, have them on hand to reference and how many changes you have left each day.
Yes, the bonus feats are set, so they don't really complicate things in play, unless the feats themselves are complicated i guess.
Thinking of complicated changing feats, the brawler's martial flexibility could get quite involved to make the most of, I'm not sure if that'd make them hard to play overall though.
I don't find spellcasters too bad, since I tend towards a general 'always useful spell list' and then rarely change it.
BUT
Buff-heavy spellcasters can be a pain to run, especially something like an Evangelist Cleric. Inspire Courage, Prayer, Bless, Blessing of Fervor... lots and lots of buffs to track, and the entire party has to track the things.
And Aroden help you if you're in a party with more than one dedicated buffer. It's a powerful option, but it drains player sanity like nothing else.
Oh yeah brawlers are insanely taxing if you actually try for the best of them.
I think a wizard/Cleric mystic theurge would be pretty complex xD
In 3.5, I played an elf archer druid that was pretty complex. Buffs, summons, animal companion, animal companion's buffs, summoned's buffs, wildshape, lots of spells, TWO different magical bows, etc. etc.
But he was more versatile than complicated. I just had to stat out all the wildshape forms and summoned monsters ahead of time, plus keep a separate character sheet for his animal companion.
<-- this guy damn near breaks me. He started out as a thought experiment and while I love the concept of him, he's so complicated I kinda want to retire him.
Archer
Alchemist
Summoner
Channeler
Clerical full caster
With an Animal Companion
First Edition Chivalry and Sorcery Power Word Mage. You got 3 points college credit.
In 3.5, I played an elf archer druid that was pretty complex. Buffs, summons, animal companion, animal companion's buffs, summoned's buffs, wildshape, lots of spells, TWO different magical bows, etc. etc.
Druid was my first thought, on seeing this thread. In our current campaign there's a new player who did a druid and he was so horribly lost, between his alternate forms, buffs, animal companion and spells that he finally gave up and created a monk.
<-- this guy damn near breaks me. He started out as a thought experiment and while I love the concept of him, he's so complicated I kinda want to retire him.
Archer
Alchemist
Summoner
Channeler
Clerical full caster
With an Animal Companion
I tried looking at your profile, but it was very confusing. What is classes does it have?
EDIT:
I looked it over again. Cleric 7? Why no 4th level spells? Why do you have Precise Shot twice? Looks like an interesting character. Reminds me of my old 3.5 druid elf archer. I didn't use a lot of alchemist items, but I combined produce flame with Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, which at 9th level gave me three ranged touch attacks for 1d6+6 (if within 30 feet) for 3 rounds for only a 1st level spell slot.
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In 3.5, I played an elf archer druid that was pretty complex. Buffs, summons, animal companion, animal companion's buffs, summoned's buffs, wildshape, lots of spells, TWO different magical bows, etc. etc.Druid was my first thought, on seeing this thread. In our current campaign there's a new player who did a druid and he was so horribly lost, between his alternate forms, buffs, animal companion and spells that he finally gave up and created a monk.
Newbies should play rangers.
Lots of fun skills, good in combat, 2 good saves, and it teaches you how to play. Bonus feats (but a selection of short lists), spells, pets or buffing, terrain types, creature types.
Yeah I am with the other occultists. (Hehe)
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I'm GMing WotW and a new player joined the game. She's 18 years old, and even though she has roleplayed before it seems like all her former GMs didn't know the rules and confused her more than helped.
She wanted so badly to play a Druid. I've given her 2 wildshapes to start, a small amount of useful spells, her animal companion and some quick notes. She's still a bit lost but she is learning. I encouraged her to add new stuff to the bases I gave her and I hope she keeps improving.
Not the easiest class to start, indeed.
I tend to gravitate to spellcasters, but I haven't still played a class that I found to be that difficult. When I chose to play a Witch I thought it would be more difficult than a Wizard because of the hexes, but I found it to be easier because of the hexes.
I've created a Magus NPC for a campaign and I thought «I don't know why people complain so much about the Magus, everything is clear and simple». Two sessions later, I already had to check rules and FAQs about a dozen times to make sure how some of the interactions he had worked. Not exactly difficult, but it's more complex than it seems at first sight.
I never tried a lot of the classes so I cannot tell about them all.
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It all depends on how you look at 'complex' classes.
If the proper prep work has not been done beforehand, the Summoner is the worst class to have at your table. Imagine the joy of having someone summon a creature, and then have to look up its stats in the bestiary, and then have to modify its statblock based on Augment Summoning, and then have to look up the universal monster rules for things like Trip and Earth Glide. Pregame your notes, friends.
If you're learning a new class, the Kineticist is the most complex class. The big issue is that there are so many new terms, so many new abilities, all completely foreign to even a modestly experienced spellcaster. In their 'core' book, each Element has maybe one or two meaningful choices at any given level, but each Element's abilities are all mashed together, so searching for your tricks and cross referencing and constantly swapping pages is a nightmare. When I was learning the class, I actually had to read optimization guides before actual book entry, just because they had a much better format for giving me information.
But hey. Real talk here. Martials. Oh my god martials. Once my Vigilante has Power Attack and Two Weapon fighting going, and one or two buffs from allies? This is me every turn. I commend you guys for being able to stick to it. EDIT: How the heck do you guys plan for your attack routines on a single character sheet? Between normal attacks, Power Attacks, your golfbag of weapons, backup ranged weapon, and maybe even an odd natural attack, I feel like I need to print up an extra page just to cover that stuff.
First Edition Chivalry and Sorcery Power Word Mage. You got 3 points college credit.
and I'm not even sure the PWM was the most complex mage to handle in that edition...
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If the proper prep work has not been done beforehand, the Summoner is the worst class to have at your table. Imagine the joy of having someone summon a creature, and then have to look up its stats in the bestiary, and then have to modify its statblock based on Augment Summoning, and then have to look up the universal monster rules for things like Trip and Earth Glide. Pregame your notes, friends.
And then they realize they should to apply the celestial or fiendish template.
A common wisdom is to just say no if a player tries to summon without having a complete stat block in front of them.
But hey. Real talk here. Martials. Oh my god martials. Once my Vigilante has Power Attack and Two Weapon fighting going, and one or two buffs from allies? This is me every turn. I commend you guys for being able to stick to it. EDIT: How the heck do you guys plan for your attack routines on a single character sheet? Between normal attacks, Power Attacks, your golfbag of weapons, backup ranged weapon, and maybe even an odd natural attack, I feel like I need to print up an extra page just to cover that stuff.
always power attack, write down your attack routines for your primary and alt weapons (ex: greatsword and backup bow), keep a cheat sheet for your conditional modifiers and add on the fly (ex: smite +5 atk, +10 dmg; favored enemy +4 atk+dmg vs dragons; chained rage sadly does often require nearly a full second sheet for all it modifies).
I just rolled up a Vigilante last week, and I kept telling my group, "there's a lot to juggle here".
She's a kitsune vigilante. Her normal kitsune form is her social persona, and her human form is the vigilante. However, she can stay in human form and just take off the costume and be the "alter ego". Though technically there's only two personas, the kitsune social and the human vigilante, I can run it as three different personas, with two separate alignments. I have to keep track of what weapons to use depending on who she it as the time as she has weapons associated to her vigilante persona. I have to keep track of what abilities to use and when, least people figure out who she is. Then there's the three of four different numbers her disguise can be and when it's which number depending on her persona and form. How to talk like which persona and when. Where you do and don't have renown.
So mechanically, vigilante might not be the most complex, however for role playing there's a lot of stuff to juggle.
I had a Halfling witch that used the Halfling jinx abilities and I found there were a ton of things to track between the hexes, the jinxes and the spells. Not that there were a lot of fiddly bits to the class itself like an inquisitor but I always had a giant list of who had failed or saved against what with the different durations and penalties based on whether they saved or failed and whether or not the jinxes applied. There were spell effects to track over and above the hexes and jinxes and then cackle complicated things even further by extending some durations and not others...he was a super fun character but an accounting nightmare.
It's interesting that you mention your inquisitor is a sanctified slayer and you still had so much to manage. I prefer sanctified slayer to vanilla inquisitor because studied target instead of judgements vastly reduces the amount of fiddly bits. Imagine if you were a vanilla inquisitor!
I have more than.5 pages for my witch:
Character sheet
Familiar sheet + buff tracker + uses per day tracker + creatures hexed per day
Group inventory management+ personal inventory
Quick notes + combat tracker (initiatives, damage, debuffs)
Common spell effects + random minor spellblights
Character portrait (it inspires me!)
I'm usually very messy but I have got used to note everything and it makes everything run smoothly.
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I play warpriests, inquisitors, wizards, and a magus/ninja in PFS. I have found two things to be invaluable in playing these:
The buff deck it absolutely wonderful.
you can download a wonderful pdf file from Dyslexic Studios at http://charactersheets.minotaur.cc/ and it has specially designed sheets for individual classes. I have to connections to these guys but I LOVE their sheets. Makes it much easier to track things on complex classes.
Shaman with a small sized familiar is fairly complicated.
Things to track:
What spells I prepared today
How many times I prepared each spell today
What wandering spirit I commune with today
What wandering hex I attract today
What buff spells have I cast on myself
What buff spells have I cast on my teammates
What buff spells have I cast on my familiar
What do my spirit abilities do
How many times can I use spirit ability 1
How many times can I use spirit ability 2
Between a decent AC (which I can buff to near-tank levels), a strong focus on spellcasting, and a few feat/hex combos for touch spells I can switch between blaster, debuffer, healer, secondary melee, battlefield controller, and buffer with only one (in game) day change. I have streamlined this by using index cards to make typical spell selections to review and change as needed.
My high-level arcane bloodrager had a lot to track as well, and a lot of math. Had to select 2-3 buffs on top of rage and see how they combined to affect my AC, miss chance, number of attacks, attack bonus, and damage, on top of tracking bane and a number of wands and potions I had collected. And since I was the only person in the party willing to get close enough to be affected by short-range attacks/enemy auras, and the only one to open doors or go first down a hallway, I usually had to track several (sometimes going up to 5+) debuffs, though that wasn't exactly due to class.
It all depends on how you look at 'complex' classes.
If the proper prep work has not been done beforehand, the Summoner is the worst class to have at your table. Imagine the joy of having someone summon a creature, and then have to look up its stats in the bestiary, and then have to modify its statblock based on Augment Summoning, and then have to look up the universal monster rules for things like Trip and Earth Glide. Pregame your notes, friends.
If you're learning a new class, the Kineticist is the most complex class. The big issue is that there are so many new terms, so many new abilities, all completely foreign to even a modestly experienced spellcaster. In their 'core' book, each Element has maybe one or two meaningful choices at any given level, but each Element's abilities are all mashed together, so searching for your tricks and cross referencing and constantly swapping pages is a nightmare. When I was learning the class, I actually had to read optimization guides before actual book entry, just because they had a much better format for giving me information.
But hey. Real talk here. Martials. Oh my god martials. Once my Vigilante has Power Attack and Two Weapon fighting going, and one or two buffs from allies? This is me every turn. I commend you guys for being able to stick to it. EDIT: How the heck do you guys plan for your attack routines on a single character sheet? Between normal attacks, Power Attacks, your golfbag of weapons, backup ranged weapon, and maybe even an odd natural attack, I feel like I need to print up an extra page just to cover that stuff.
Well you are right, I am a math teacher, lol
How the heck do you guys plan for your attack routines on a single character sheet?
Spreadsheets!
I can add a thousand more rows with a few buttons, so it's not hard to write out, in advance, what my modifiers are with every combination of effects I anticipate using.
You can also just set macros for power attack, etc. so you set the field equal to true and it changes all the rest of the numbers as appropriate.
I had a player that kept asking me for character that did all kinds of things, including using an evil soul-sucking sword.
I finally built him the character he was asking for.
An Insinuator Anti Paladin with a Magus VMC, taking the Hellknight prestige class. I house ruled he could take the Bladebound archetype with his first arcana.
2 Codes of Conduct
Shifting alignment / patron
2 separate Smite abilities
Auras
Greeds
Channeling
Bonded weapon
Black Blade
- intelligent weapon progression
- arcane pool
- black blade strike
- energy conversion
Arcana
Arcane Pool
Spellstrike
He had everything he had asked for in one character, and it had far more moving parts than he could handle.
I hope that wasn't a first time player... O.O!I had a player that kept asking me for character that did all kinds of things, including using an evil soul-sucking sword.
I finally built him the character he was asking for.
An Insinuator Anti Paladin with a Magus VMC, taking the Hellknight prestige class. I house ruled he could take the Bladebound archetype with his first arcana.
2 Codes of Conduct
Shifting alignment / patron
2 separate Smite abilities
Auras
Greeds
Channeling
Bonded weapon
Black Blade
- intelligent weapon progression
- arcane pool
- black blade strike
- energy conversion
Arcana
Arcane Pool
SpellstrikeHe had everything he had asked for in one character, and it had far more moving parts than he could handle.
Not a first time player, he's been around since 2nd edition, just the type of person that has issues with complicated rules. Far better at roleplay than rollplay >:)
The irony: he is a lawyer in real life.
I think the Shaman and Medium are the most complex classes in pathfinder, without multiclassing or using VMCs because of how much of their kit can fluctuate from day to day. You practically need to print out a cheat sheet because of their versatility.
I played a binder once (MAYBE twice), and its whole schtick was changing suites of abilities (vestiges). At higher levels, you could bond with multiple vestiges at a time. Some of the vestiges had a role theme, like archer, tank, nature, healer, trickster, face, etc., but some were just a mish-mash of powers based on myths and legends.
It also had a variable list of minor buffs. A floating pool of +1 to +5 that could be spent on AC, Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, Initiative, DR, etc.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I think inquisitor is the most complex class I've played. So many things vying for swift actions - bane, judgements, changing judgements as the situation changed. Add onto that the normal round to round decisions about positioning, flanking, power attack, spellcasting...the class works really well but there's a lot to keep track of. I don't believe in "pat" strategies so I assess each encounter anew.
I haven't tried a warpriest or occultist but those are both on my "want to" list.
While not the most complex mechanically, a Master Summoner in full Zerg rush mode is another contender, particularly when you get the summons with interesting SLA's. It is one of several reasons our group bans the class.
The inquisitor always looked like a lot of work, which is why I have never made one. I have never looked at the occult classes. I made a druid/summoner NPC once that was a nightmare deciding what to do in combat.
I have always liked the warpriest, normally situations limit what is a good option, and keeps warpriest manageable.
Summoners and brawlers are among the most complex I see simply because of the number of situational tools in their respective swiss army knives. Occultist comes in not far after that.