This is viable, but he would only ever get one attack a round doing this, since he is using spell strike to deliver a spell he cast (which normally grants one free touch attack).
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You don't HAVE to miss out on full attacks. There are several touch spells that actually last for multiple rounds (albeit, with less damage per strike) that could be cast on the first round, and then combined with full attacking on later rounds. Chill Touch and Frostbite are the two that spring to mind, but there are others.
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RAW you have it right, you can spellstrike without doing spell combat but you would miss out on full attacks. One option would be to dip a level into Alchemist and take Vestigial Arm so that they would have a free hand for casting. If you have a homebrew friendly GM, they could allow them to homebrew an arcana that would let them use spell combat with a 2-handed weapon.
You'd actually need two Alchemist levels to get a Vestigial Arm. Alchemists get their first discovery at second level, and the extra discovery feat requires that you already have the discovery class feature.
Alchemist vestigial arms wouldn't work.
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
posted November 2013 | back to top
Basically vestigial arms only allow you to hold extra things, but doesn't count as a "extra" metaphorical hand. Vestigial arm isn't supposed to be very strong, and isn't supposed to let you do anything that you couldn't do with your normal number of arms, except not having to draw or sheath an extra item.
Also, spell combat explicitly requires using a light or one-handed weapon, so no matter what under all circumstances you can't use a two-handed weapon to spell combat.
Basically vestigial arms only allow you to hold extra things, but doesn't count as a "extra" metaphorical hand. Vestigial arm isn't supposed to be very strong, and isn't supposed to let you do anything that you couldn't do with your normal number of arms, except not having to draw or sheath an extra item.
False.
Vestigial arms do not allow extra actions, but can be used for anything else. You can use a shield, count as having an free hand, wield an existing weapon with an extra hand, etc.
Also, spell combat explicitly requires using a light or one-handed weapon, so no matter what under all circumstances you can't use a two-handed weapon to spell combat.
True in the case of a greatsword, but with a caveat; a magus with extra arms can two-hand a one handed weapon while using spell combat.
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Basically vestigial arms only allow you to hold extra things, but doesn't count as a "extra" metaphorical hand. Vestigial arm isn't supposed to be very strong, and isn't supposed to let you do anything that you couldn't do with your normal number of arms, except not having to draw or sheath an extra item.False.
Vestigial arms do not allow extra actions, but can be used for anything else. You can use a shield, count as having an free hand, wield an existing weapon with an extra hand, etc.
Also, spell combat explicitly requires using a light or one-handed weapon, so no matter what under all circumstances you can't use a two-handed weapon to spell combat.True in the case of a greatsword, but with a caveat; a magus with extra arms can two-hand a one handed weapon while using spell combat.
The whole "hands of effort" thing seem to say the opposite. If you get the equivalent of 3 hands of effort, you aren't kosher.
Basically vestigial arms only allow you to hold extra things, but doesn't count as a "extra" metaphorical hand. Vestigial arm isn't supposed to be very strong, and isn't supposed to let you do anything that you couldn't do with your normal number of arms, except not having to draw or sheath an extra item.False.
Vestigial arms do not allow extra actions, but can be used for anything else. You can use a shield, count as having an free hand, wield an existing weapon with an extra hand, etc.
Also, spell combat explicitly requires using a light or one-handed weapon, so no matter what under all circumstances you can't use a two-handed weapon to spell combat.True in the case of a greatsword, but with a caveat; a magus with extra arms can two-hand a one handed weapon while using spell combat.The whole "hands of effort" thing seem to say the opposite. If you get the equivalent of 3 hands of effort, you aren't kosher.
With vestigial arms you have, literally, additional hands.
You have extra physical hands, but you don't have extra metaphorical hands.
The concept of which was brought up to specifically deny Vestigial Arms from being particularly useful.
I will however, admit is misspoke in the statement you quoted earlier as I didn't intend to say it can only be used to hold items. I believe using a shield is allowed, however your other examples are things I interpret from that FAQ as not allowing.
As Diego mentions, it's basically a "hands of effort" thing, and you're not allowed to have more hands of effort than you normally do.
You have extra physical hands, but you don't have extra metaphorical hands.
The concept of which was brought up to specifically deny Vestigial Arms from being particularly useful.
I will however, admit is misspoke in the statement you quoted earlier as I didn't intend to say it can only be used to hold items. I believe using a shield is allowed, however your other examples are things I interpret from that FAQ as not allowing.
As Diego mentions, it's basically a "hands of effort" thing, and you're not allowed to have more hands of effort than you normally do.
With vestigial arms the total number of attacks available to the character does not increase, but the hands available to make attacks does.
Both the attack with the longsword and the attack with the mace would be using a primary hand.
Putting a second hand on a one handed weapon during spell combat does not increase the total number of attacks the character is making. What it does do is change how one of those attacks is calculated.
You can't use a Vestigial Arm to be one of the two arms of a greatsword attack. You can't use it for spellcasting either.
You can't use a Vestigial Arm to be one of the two arms of a greatsword attack. You can't use it for spellcasting either.
If your third hand is also being used for something else.
I understand the player can't race change, but Kasatha anyone?
I understand the player can't race change, but Kasatha anyone?
Exactly how the rules work when you legitimately have 4 arms is unclear. It's something the forums have been asking about to have explained more fully for a long time.
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I understand the player can't race change, but Kasatha anyone?Exactly how the rules work when you legitimately have 4 arms is unclear. It's something the forums have been asking about to have explained more fully for a long time.
The monster entry for the Kasatha has this very unclear text:
Multi-Armed (Ex) A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
and the following attacks:
Melee sai +3 (1d4+1) or unarmed strike +3 (1d6+1) or flurry of blows +2/+2 (1d6+1)Special Attacks flurry of blows, stunning fist (1/day, DC 13)
1 armed strike or 1 unarmed strike or fully of blow.
Its attacks are determined only by its character class."It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands." can mean almost anything, from "he can make 3 extra off hand attacks, to "it can hold a weapon in one hand, a wand in another a shield in a third and draw a potion with the fourth, but it is still limited to 1 extra off hand attack" as that is what you get when you fight with multiple limbs if your statblok don't say differently.
Compare it with a Marilith
Melee +1 longsword +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+8/17–20), 5 +1 longswords +24 (2d6+4/17–20), tail slap +17 (2d6+3 plus grab) or 6 slams +22 (1d8+7), tail slap +17 (2d6+3 plus grab)
That is the statblock of a creature that can surely fight with all of its off hands while using manufactured weapons.
On the other hand Multi-armed from the ARG say:
Multi-Armed (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands. Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm.
and that grant the extra attacks.
So the two entries (Bestiary and ARG) don't seem to say the same thing. Or at least say that in a different way.
You can't use a Vestigial Arm to be one of the two arms of a greatsword attack. You can't use it for spellcasting either.
If you mean "use two hands on one weapon, and use the other arm for a shield," then yes. Though I wasn't really intending for people to do that, either. :pBut it would be legal to attack with a two-handed weapon, with a one handed weapon and use a shield, right? I ask because I have an alchemist in my kingmaker group who does that.
You can use a vestigial arm for anything you could use a normal arm for, as long as the characters total number of attacks does not increase.
In the case of spell combat, it is irrelevant if I define my original had free and the vestigial hand as holding a shield, or vise versa. Either way, the character meets the condition of having a free hand and the total number of attacks made by the character remain unchanged.
I understand the player can't race change, but Kasatha anyone?
You don't have to be a kasatha to have four, or more fully functional arms.
Any summoner of high enough level has the option to personally take the evolution additional limbs (arms).
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SKR never says "it's fine as long as number of attacks don't increase".
Also several of SKRs statements actually ended up disagreeing with what the FAQ said, so it's still a turbulent topic to say the least.
SKR never says "it's fine as long as number of attacks don't increase".
Also several of SKRs statements actually ended up disagreeing with what the FAQ said, so it's still a turbulent topic to say the least.
I need you to stop mixing in other things and answer just the question I'm presenting to you.
First of all, unarmed strike can't be *any* body part you want. It's undefined for non-monks, but the monk class specifically calls out "a monk's [unarmed] attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet," so it's reasonable that non-monks have to follow a similar restriction (otherwise the non-monk has more versatile unarmed strike options, which is silly).
So a human holding a barrel with his could make a kick or knee unarmed strike (his arms are busy holding the barrel, so no fists or elbows). If he had TWF, he could make two unarmed strikes, one with the left leg and one with the right leg. We know he has to use separate limbs because the revised monk flurry ruling says a monk can use one weapon for all of a flurry, which means it that a special rule for monks and non-flurrying non-monks can't do that.
Now replace the TWF human with a TWF tengu, and get rid of the barrel. The tengu can make two unarmed strikes per round (one with the left leg and one with the right leg), and gets to add his three natural attacks as secondary attacks. That's 5 attacks per round, total. Overall, that puts his attack bonuses at –2 kick/–2 kick/–5 bite/–5 claw/–5 claw. This is a legitimate attack routine.
Now give him the vestigial arm discovery x2. Instead of making two kick attacks, he's making two manufactured weapon attacks. So his total attack routine is weapon/weapon/bite/claw/claw. That's 5 attacks per round, total. This is a legitimate attack routine.
Tengu-A, the two-armed tengu, is making 5 attacks per round.
Tengu-B, the four-armed tengu, is making 5 attacks per round.Both are valid. The second tengu is not getting any more attacks per round than the first tengu. In other words, the second tengu is not getting any extra attacks per round compared to the first tengu.
Or, to quote the FAQ:
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."Haste and other special effects, if applied to both example characters, should affect them equally. Frex, haste on Tengu A gives it an extra unarmed strike attack per round, haste on Tengu B gives it an extra manufactured weapon attack per round, but both characters are still getting the same number of attacks per round: 5 + 1.
At the time of the posts I am linking, SKR was not only on the development team, he was the person who wrote the FAQ for vestigial arms / tentacles.
Except I'm not wrong. I got a consensus of the rest of the design team, I wrote the FAQ in question, and I posted it using the PDT account.
Your idea of "You can't attack with more than two arms out of any combination of arms and vestigial arms" isn't in the rules anywhere, and it's not an idea the design team supports.
The FAQ seems to be a lot more limiting than most people claim. 'Extra hands of effort', as per the FAQ, seem to be limited to attacks and/or getting more than 1.5x STR on a pair of attacks. Not casting spells, holding rods, holding shields, or things that aren't actually making attacks.SKR never says "it's fine as long as number of attacks don't increase".
Also several of SKRs statements actually ended up disagreeing with what the FAQ said, so it's still a turbulent topic to say the least.
Certain people are still b%#rt about not being able to twf with armor spikes and a two-handed weapon. To the point where they still try to take away everyone else's toys.
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Spell Combat combined with Spellstrike allows for two hits with the weapon (The spell only fires once in a round)
Using Spellstrike alone only transfer the hit to the weapon, it does not give you an extra attack by itself. The two abilities are separate in themselves and are not reliant on one another, but they do work well together.
As far as Two Handed weapons are concerned, there is a couple of situations where it is possible, the Mind Blade archtype comes to mind, gaining Dual Weapons at 7th level to TWF with Spell Combat, and gaining Dual Manufest at 13th level, allowing Two Handed Weapons to be wielded as Spell Combat is used.
Otherwise, the hand has to be free the entire round Spell Combat is used.
Certain people are still b%#rt about not being able to twf with armor spikes and a two-handed weapon. To the point where they still try to take away everyone else's toys.The FAQ seems to be a lot more limiting than most people claim. 'Extra hands of effort', as per the FAQ, seem to be limited to attacks and/or getting more than 1.5x STR on a pair of attacks. Not casting spells, holding rods, holding shields, or things that aren't actually making attacks.SKR never says "it's fine as long as number of attacks don't increase".
Also several of SKRs statements actually ended up disagreeing with what the FAQ said, so it's still a turbulent topic to say the least.
Well to be fair, they pulled the FAQ out of thin air and reversed how TWF had worked since the 3.5 FAQ that explained that you COULD "twf with armor spikes and a two-handed weapon". Since it is the definition of an unwritten rule, there are questions how far to 'hands of effort' go.
IMO _Ozy_ is correct in what it covers but I can understand the confusion.