I was looking to play a Muscle Wizard in PFS after playing a scenario where one totally kicked my ass, but I'm wondering if it'll ever come off the ground. I have a rough outline, but I'm wondering if people could give me some advice and/or tell me if it's possible to be actually useful or if it's a useless endeavor.
The build:
STR 16 (+2 racial)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 9
CHA 7
Race will be either Half-Elf if I'm multiclassing (Multitalented gives me more HP, free weapon proficiency with an exotic weapon), or Human if I'm not. I was thinking of wielding a two-hander and only casting buff spells on myself, so INT doesn't need to be that high, as I don't depend on save DCs. Feats will most likely be Toughness, Weapon Focus, Power Attack (and maybe Furious Focus), and Arcane Combat Training if I decide to go with a level dip. Maybe Arcane Strike for a damage boost if I'm not using Arcane Combat Training.
My question about multiclassing is whether it pays off to go Eldritch Knight, which would require some multiclassing, or if it's better to just stay Wizard. At least dipping in a full-BAB class gives me weapon and armour proficiencies, but will delay my spellcasting a bit.
I'm also thinking of playing a Thassilonian Specialist, as I have a boon for it and it seems useful. I'd go with Greed (Transmutation) obviously, as those are schools I'll rarely use. The only downside is that I lose Illusion school speels, which contains Mirror Image, which is a great lifesaver for a melee combatant.
With GM credit, I can start at about level 3, maybe 4 if I'm GMing a lot of low-level scenarios.
So, my questions/advice needed:
1. Should I go with Thassilonian Specialist? It gives me more spells, but it comes at the cost of some schools. I can probably UMD them, though.
2. Should I multiclass, and if so, what? Fighter is a nice choice as it gives me a bonus feat and armour proficiency, but a bit boring. Slayer or Ranger gives me a lot more skill points per level, but don't do much for the build. Hell, even Samurai might be a good choice, as it gives me proficiency with katanas, which are 1d8 18-20 weapons. The falcata is also very nice, 19-20 x3 is so sweet, but I don't know if it's better than critting more often. Barbarian gives me a bit more to-hit and damage output. And then, Eldritch Knight? I lose one spell progression level, but afterwards it's pure gravy.
3. Related to the previous point, should I invest in armour? Arcane spell failure is a thing, and while Arcane Armor Training and mithral armour help a lot, I'm assuming I'll get hit eventually. Will Mage Armor suffice?
4. Will this build actually be effective? I'm mostly worried about my to-hit being abysmal, and most things can be replicated by a Magus anyways. I'm just wondering if I'm not nerfing myself for the sake of a humorous build. I mean, as an NPC he was quite difficult, but he had a lot of buff rounds, I can't stand around buffing for 3 rounds every single time a combat breaks out.
Thanks a lot!
Mage Armor & +2 dex isn't enough defence on its own, no. I would make sure that I had mirror image available. If you were maxing dex and going for slashing/fencing grace it'd be different.
As far as weapons go any two-hander should be fine. A falchion (2d4 18-20) beats a katana for this type of character, you should be able to take a hand off the weapon to cast a spell.
You might look at a blade adept arcanist as being a similar character.
It should be moderately effective. If you put two traits into reducing the cost of metamagic on some 1st-2nd level spell and then get quicken spell you can do something similar to a magus (attack and cast a spell) from 5th or 7th level. Depending on the spell you might get some use out of a different metamagic feat before that.
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While that Scenario was absolutely hilarious, the incredible amount of buff time needed doesn't work in your favor.
As for the advice.
1, you need to decide if the utility of schools is outweighed by having more power through spellslots of your favored school.
2, if you want proficiency with a weapon, try the swordbinder archetype from arcane anthology or the aformentioned blade adept arcanist, try and stay in one class for more spells.
3, I would not invest in armor as the later you get in levels, the more precious your swift action gets, as you can throw out things like a quickened heroism/shield to get buffed faster.
4, A traditional Gish can still be rather effective, the contending point with the magus is that the magus can access spells and melee at the same time from the start, while the gish is limited to one at a time until later levels, though the traditional gish has higher level spell access.
Hope this helps!
Edit : After some more research, a build that seems appealing would be : blade adept 5 or swordbinder wizard 5/fighter 1/eldritch knight 5.
an arcanist gish will be stuck at 4th level spells with more slots, while the wizard can get 5th level with less slots.
Be careful of builds that rock as NPCs. You want to be aware of how much of their effectiveness comes from GM control of setting and timing.
I realize this is rather an obvious thing when you think about it, but it is so easy to ignore.
Just saying...
Eldritch Knight still gives you 9th level casting and 3/4 BAB. Not to mention Magical Knack essentially negates the caster level penalty.
I believe Arcanist has a shapeshifting archetype.
Transmutation school boosts stats, as well as spells.
Keep in mind, the average PC is going to go through four combat encounters per day. The average NPC is going through one in their life. They can spend four times as many resources in a combat, which is why they can be so strong.
try a muscle witch with the pre erata scared which
It's PFS unfortunately.
What about a Muscle Sorcerer instead? It might sound weird, but if Crossblooded is allowed in PFS, a Verdant/Abyssal sorcerer can get Entangle, Barkskin, Rage, and Stoneskin by level 10 - all good spells for you. You can also get Claws, Photosynthesis (saves vs. poison and sleep), and Strength of the Abyss (+2 STR) by level 9. If you'd rather not be a demon-blooded dude who grows claws, maybe a half-orc crossblooded sorcerer with verdant/orc?
You can also take the Eldritch Scrapper archetype for sorcerers. Hooray for Martial Flexibility!
I'd recommend grabbing Heroism because of its 10 minute/level duration.
What about a Muscle Sorcerer instead? It might sound weird, but if Crossblooded is allowed in PFS, a Verdant/Abyssal sorcerer can get Entangle, Barkskin, Rage, and Stoneskin by level 10 - all good spells for you. You can also get Claws, Photosynthesis (saves vs. poison and sleep), and Strength of the Abyss (+2 STR) by level 9. If you'd rather not be a demon-blooded dude who grows claws, maybe a half-orc crossblooded sorcerer with verdant/orc?
You can also take the Eldritch Scrapper archetype for sorcerers. Hooray for Martial Flexibility!
I'd recommend grabbing Heroism because of its 10 minute/level duration.
Wildblood is legal, Cross-blooded is legal, but you can't have both together and your combo has 'em both.
Wildblood is legal, Cross-blooded is legal, but you can't have both together and your combo has 'em both.What about a Muscle Sorcerer instead? It might sound weird, but if Crossblooded is allowed in PFS, a Verdant/Abyssal sorcerer can get Entangle, Barkskin, Rage, and Stoneskin by level 10 - all good spells for you. You can also get Claws, Photosynthesis (saves vs. poison and sleep), and Strength of the Abyss (+2 STR) by level 9. If you'd rather not be a demon-blooded dude who grows claws, maybe a half-orc crossblooded sorcerer with verdant/orc?
You can also take the Eldritch Scrapper archetype for sorcerers. Hooray for Martial Flexibility!
I'd recommend grabbing Heroism because of its 10 minute/level duration.
You can't have 'em both? Whuh?
That I never knew.
My Arcanist(Spell Specialist archetype for spontaneous casting)/Dragon Disciple wasn't PFS, but he was quite useful. I used Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage(Orc) for extra Strength and Natural Armor on top of the Draconic Bloodline(using Bloodline Development from Arcanist) to reach some nice damage. Half-Orc for a greataxe and Bracers of Armor combined with spells like Monsteous Physique for even more Strength and NA. Around 14th level he had 13 Natural Armor before casting any spells.
Thing is that PFS quits at level 12. So if you are going to be a 9/9 caster, you get 5th level spells at either level 9 (prepared) or 10 (spontaneous or hybrid), and 4th level spells at either level 7 (prepared) or 8 (spontaneous or hybrid), whereas a 6/9 caster gets 4th level spells at level 10 (either way), in all cases assuming no multiclassing. If you go Eldritch Knight, you lose 1 level of spellcasting progression from the prestige class itself and 1 level of spellcasting from the required martial dip (last time I checked, you can't use VMC in PFS, so no Skill At Arms Revelation to get you off the hook for that). Even though you can offset the caster level loss with Magical Knack, this puts your 4th level spells back to either level 9 (prepared) or 10 (spontaneous or hybrid), meaning that you are getting them just 1 level earlier (prepared) or at the same time as (spontaneous or hybrid) a 6/9 spellcaster. Meanwhile, if you go Martial 1/Fullcaster 5 or 6/Eldritch Knight 5 or 4, your Base Attack Bonus is +8 (either way) at level 11, which is the same as on a single-classed 6/9 spellcaster, but at the levels before 11, it is worse, while your spellcasting is either about the same or just slightly ahead. Eldritch Knight is also really barren on class features; it gives you bonus feats faster than Magus, but still at long enough intervals that this doesn't get to kick in for more than 1 or 2 feats worth in a PFS career. Eldritch Knight pulls ahead in the long haul, but PFS doesn't let you get there unless you have some kind of boon that lets you go over level 12, and you'd have to have a really awesome boon (not even sure if boons that awesome exist) to be able to make it to the Eldritch Knight capstone. Due to lack of Favored Class Bonus for your non-caster levels, an Eldritch Knight build up to level 11 will also have slightly poorer hit points than a single-classed 6/9 spellcaster. Your Saves will also likely be worse -- all 9/9 arcane spellcasters have only a good Will Save, while Eldritch Knight only has a good Fortitude Save, whereas both arcane and divine 6/9 spellcasters other than Summoner and Eldritch Scion Rogue have 2 good Saves all the way through, unless I missed another counterexample.
If you go Muscle Pure Wizard, your spellcasting is definitely better than on a 6/9 caster, but your Base Attack Bonus is definitely worse all the way.
Now what you COULD do profitably, though, is figure out what the Muscle Wizard did to give you so much trouble, and set yourself up to do the same thing on a 6/9 spellcaster -- as noted above, your spellcasting progression will be almost as good as on an Eldritch Knight build, so you should be able to pull it off. In this case, you'll still be in decent if not outstanding shape if the unexpected happens (or you run low on spells) and you don't get a chance to prebuff.
@Inlaa: You can't combine Cross-Blooded with Wildblooded (even in non-PFS, unless your GM house-rules it to work) because Wildblooded is worded as an archetype (a Wildblooded Bloodline isn't like a Cleric/Druid Subdomain), and both it and Cross-Blooded alter the same components of Bloodline. This is something that I really wish they would fix in a Sorcerer Unchained, not just because of that, but also because it makes the organization of Bloodlines terrible. (And then they DIDN'T make the Psychic Bloodline an archetype -- go figure.)
1. Should I go with Thassilonian Specialist? It gives me more spells, but it comes at the cost of some schools. I can probably UMD them, though.
2. Should I multiclass, and if so, what? Fighter is a nice choice as it gives me a bonus feat and armour proficiency, but a bit boring. Slayer or Ranger gives me a lot more skill points per level, but don't do much for the build. Hell, even Samurai might be a good choice, as it gives me proficiency with katanas, which are 1d8 18-20 weapons. The falcata is also very nice, 19-20 x3 is so sweet, but I don't know if it's better than critting more often. Barbarian gives me a bit more to-hit and damage output. And then, Eldritch Knight? I lose one spell progression level, but afterwards it's pure gravy.
3. Related to the previous point, should I invest in armour? Arcane spell failure is a thing, and while Arcane Armor Training and mithral armour help a lot, I'm assuming I'll get hit eventually. Will Mage Armor suffice?
4. Will this build actually be effective? I'm mostly worried about my to-hit being abysmal, and most things can be replicated by a Magus anyways. I'm just wondering if I'm not nerfing myself for the sake of a humorous build. I mean, as an NPC he was quite difficult, but he had a lot of buff rounds, I can't stand around buffing for 3 rounds every single time a combat breaks out.
1. A clear NO to Thassilonian Specialist, especially if you go transmuter. You lose too much. It's not only Mirror Image, but also Displacement (verbal only spell), Greater Invisibility and Heroism.
2. I'd go with fighter. Yes, it's boring but it works just fine. You get all proficiencies you could need plus a bonus feat. Also stacks with EK for fighter-only feats and might allow you slighly faster access to stuff like weapon specialization.3. Mage Armor will not keep you alive past the first few levels. I'd personally go with Mithral Breastplate and Arcane Armor Mastery. When you have enough spell slots (at about level 6+), you might still want to cast Mage Armor to protect against incorporeal touch attacks and in case you want to use polymorph spells. Other than that, the Shield spell is your friend.
4. Well, it's more or less a basic Eldritch Knight, and those work pretty decent overall. For your attack bonus, get Heroism, Weapon Focus and Furious Focus. Twilight knife provides flanking. For damage Arcane Strike and Weapon Specialization. Depending on your equipment/feat choices Greater Magic Weapon and Keen Edge might be a good.
If you're interested, I posted my basic Eldritch Knight build here.
Eldritch Knight pulls ahead in the long haul, but PFS doesn't let you get there unless you have some kind of boon that lets you go over level 12, and you'd have to have a really awesome boon (not even sure if boons that awesome exist) to be able to make it to the Eldritch Knight capstone.
Did they remove the lvl 13+ adventures as possible one you can do? Been a couple years since I played, but when I stopped playing my magus was 13-14 and there was a clear route to lvl 20 (though nothing to play at lvl 20) via APs and module combination I think. Seen a few ppl saying PFS stops at lvl 12 (also implying it's impossible to get past lvl 12 without a boon) now.
Thanks for the input, all! I've decided to step away from the Wizard aspect, as it's unnecessarily limiting. I can replicate most of it as a Cleric, which gets better weapon and armour proficiencies, better HD and BAB, and has a little more utility. I won't be able to pull off everything I want to do, but it's close enough, and I'm not nerfing myself unnecessarily.
Wildblood is legal, Cross-blooded is legal, but you can't have both together and your combo has 'em both.What about a Muscle Sorcerer instead? It might sound weird, but if Crossblooded is allowed in PFS, a Verdant/Abyssal sorcerer can get Entangle, Barkskin, Rage, and Stoneskin by level 10 - all good spells for you. You can also get Claws, Photosynthesis (saves vs. poison and sleep), and Strength of the Abyss (+2 STR) by level 9. If you'd rather not be a demon-blooded dude who grows claws, maybe a half-orc crossblooded sorcerer with verdant/orc?
You can also take the Eldritch Scrapper archetype for sorcerers. Hooray for Martial Flexibility!
I'd recommend grabbing Heroism because of its 10 minute/level duration.
You can't have 'em both? Whuh?
That I never knew.
There's been a lot of discussion on this, but when the dust settled, the faq folks ruled that since both archetypes modify the same class feature... bloodlines, they can't stack.
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One build that you could consider is a level drop in fighter or some martial class and then 6 levels of arcanist. Max out that Strength, and you'll get some pretty decent output early on with superior maneuverability (dimensional slide). After that, dump levels into Eldritch Knight and you'll do pretty darn well.
A local built the same thing, and used barbarian for his martial so he could rage after buffing up. At higher levels, he would quicken-rod mirror image, always have some long-duration buff spells up, and then dimensional dervish his way around to flank with everyone, AND have the option to dimensional slide away afterwards, AND be able to monstrous humanoid himself into a gargoyle with something like 5-6 attacks. It was disgustingly effective, and he was only a couple CL from a full mage. Often he'd get his buffs out of the way during the surprise round and then full round everything in the room on future rounds. If he had a chance to throw up shield before a fight he could get high 30's low 40's AC, which was enough to avoid most trouble, with mirror image covering his butt the rest of the time.
if your doing wizard i advice going earth school, you get a very nice bonus to cmd against a lot of manuevers and a nice bonus to hit and damage if your both standing on ground.(its my go-to whenever i splash a level of wizard with a melee class to keep my hit and damage high with the lesser bab) also earth glide(power from school) + wall of stone(or stone shape) can set your fights the way you want them.
Have you looked into elven Batlle style? The second feat in the tree reads as follows.
While using Elven Battle Style, you can add your Intelligence modifier to that weapon’s damage (instead of any other ability bonus or modifier you can add to your weapon damage). The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
You could snag this at first level if you dip unarmed fighter, or really dip into unarmed fighter on a level you get a feat to snag them both at the same time. You have to have the elven weapon familiarity thing but half-elves can get that. You'd have to use an elven curve blade, elven branched spear, rapier or long sword.
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I played once a muscle Wizard. Here's my suggestion:
Classes:
1- Unbreakable Fighter
2- Wizard
3- Wizard
4- Wizard
5- Wizard
6- Wizard
7- Eldritch Knight
...
-> Fighter: 10 hp to start, Endurance and Diehard for free. Good.
-> Wizard: Wood School, add the +1 to Dex at 1st level, +1 to Con at 5th level; it also gives you a nice ranged attack. Get a reach weapon as Arcane Bond; make it adamantium as soon as possible. If you prefer a familiar, get a Toad for extra +3 hp
Race:
Given the dip in Fighter, you don't need extra weapon proficiencies. I'd go Human.
Stats:
16+2 +1 at 4th and 8th level
13 +1 at 2nd level
13 +1 at 5th level
16
8
7
or
15+2 +1 at 4th level
15 +1 at 2nd level
15 +1 at 5th level
15 +1 at 8th level
7
7
Traits: Seeker (Perception as class skill) or Reactionary, and Magical Lineage (Magic Missile + Toppling Spell).
Feats:
1- Power Attack
1- Combat Reflexes
3- Toughness
5- Combat Expertise
5B- Toppling Spell
7- Something
7B- Stalwart
Attack:
If anyone tries to attack you in melee, you have an attack of opportunity against him thanks to reach. At 5th level, you can cast "free" toppling Magic Missiles; if you target enemies at your reach, you get an AoO when they get up. Enlarge Person can increase your battlefield control but makes you also more vulnerable.
Defence:
Always have Mage Armour and Shield activated during combat. Buy an Haramaki on the first session. Combat Expertise and Stalwart help you avoid/absorb damage. Use them when needed.
Other:
- This build can be also focused on Dex by using an Elven Branched Spear. However it requires Weapon Finesse and an Agile weapon.
- If you don't like the reach build, go Half Elf and get Bastard Sword proficiency and buy a mithril buckler as soon as possible.
Keep in mind this might be a good time to use the human alternate racial trait dual talent for +2 to Str and Int (or Dex and Int if going that way).
Thanks for the input, all! I've decided to step away from the Wizard aspect, as it's unnecessarily limiting. I can replicate most of it as a Cleric, which gets better weapon and armour proficiencies, better HD and BAB, and has a little more utility. I won't be able to pull off everything I want to do, but it's close enough, and I'm not nerfing myself unnecessarily.
If the fighting is the top priority, consider WarPriest, the spell access is limited to 6th level,and the BAB to 3/4, but they are the masters of swift action self buffing and self healing.
Have you considered a 'muscle' oracle?
Sorcerer might indeed be a good idea, I'm going for a select few spells, not going broad. I've already scrapped the idea, but thanks for the suggestion.
Warpriest is a little too vanilla, I'm afraid, and I'd like to use a more unorthodox spell list, I really need some domain spells for this. I'd also like ninth-level casters for this build, if possible.
dottin' in
I disagree with advice to go for Dual Talent Human, trading Feat for extra +2 stat bonus (STR/INT).
You will need all the Feats you can for this type of thing, and minmaxing Casting Stat is not good approach for this,
Another +2 doesn't really change the fact that with the necessary STR/DEX/CON investment,
there is no way to have mass viable Spell DCs so don't delude yourself trying,
instead focus on buffs, utility, and non-DC dependent spells where you'll be just as good as a DC-maximized caster.
Besides the Sorceror, Arcanist, and Wizard options mentioned, there is also Witch.
White Hair Witch Hair attack is interesting option, and while it replaces STR with INT for attacks,
I would say that if you take Weapon Finesse that would let you ignore the INT replacement of STR and use DEX.
A DEX build makes sense if you don't want to bother with Armor/ASF%, and Dex to Damage is do-able
either with Rogue dip (synergizing with WHW Rogue Talents), Dervish Dance Scimitar or a couple other options I believe.
Ley Line Witch lets you do Spontaneous CHA casting, and also has CL-boost which is exactly useful for the buffs and CL-tied spells you should be focusing on.
Synergist Witch gets abilities and natural attacks from it's Familiar.
Bard is interesting and Arcane Duelist (Armor, Bonus Feats, Weapon Bonus), Magician (Metamagic, Dispel, Non-Bard Spells), Dervish Dancer (Super Haste, Keen, Movement + Full Attack/Whirlwind) Archetypes would mesh well.
Skald is similar but more Combat focused (Rage, Wiz/Sorc Spell Access), with Spell Warrior (Weapon Bonus, Counterspell) and Totem Warrior (Wildshape) being interesting Archetype options.
If you're considering Divine now,
I would suggest looking at Inquisitor and Warpriest with Inquisitor having alot of traditionally Arcane spells on their list. Shaman is also a class that can get traditionally Arcane spells and effects, and can work well as "Gish".
If ever you want to try something gishy that isn't a 6/9 caster outside of PFS, you could try my Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1 /Blade Adept Arcanist x/VMC Magus build that DOESN'T go into Eldritch Knight. (As Arcanist, you take the Bloodline Development Arcane Exploit to progress the Bloodrager Bloodline, preferably Aberrant, and then get Mad Magic to be able to cast spells while in Bloodrage, and use the Rage spell to get more Bloodrage duration than your piddling initial number of rounds.) Obviously it can't be used for PFS as stated, unless PFS started allowing VMC really recently (it didn't, last I heard several weeks ago), and VMC Magus is quite important for the build, to get the Magus Arcana Maneuver Mastery onto a Blade Adept Arcanist, who normally can't take it, while the Blade Adept Arcanist archetype gives effective Magus levels for VMC Magus, which can take it but can't use it effectively due to having only effective Magus levels for qualifying but not for effect. I was trying to think of a way to make it work in PFS by making use of the feats you get back due to the ban on VMC, but I think it wouldn't be able to get around the problems for a multiclassing 9/9 caster that I posted above, with the difference that you lose 1 fewer levels of spellcasting progression by not going into Eldritch Knight, but you also lose Base Attack Bonus (-2 at level 11 relative to both an Eldritch Knight build and a Magus, and as mentioned above, -5 relative to a Magus with Maneuver Mastery on their chosen Combat Maneuver). You would also need to use an Arcane Exploit to get Spellstrike (which would otherwise be granted by VMC Magus at 11th level, although at least you would get it online faster).
Even if PFS started allowing VMC, but didn't change the time of enforced retirement, the build above is still for the long haul -- you would basically get to enjoy better spellcasting than a Magus (5th level spells) and Spellstrike (but no Spell Combat) right at the tail end of the build, but only at the tail end.
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You can try this combo:
In your quest for self-perfection, you have discovered a way to further enhance yourself and others. When a transmutation spell you cast grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score, that bonus increases by 2. At 20th level, the bonus increases by 4. You must be at least a 10th-level wizard to select this discovery.
A bit spell intensive, but you get to have +10 STR (Enhancement). Moreover, you are able to grab some other spells, like Barkskin or Good Hope.
No.
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Started this way with 20pt's
Str 16 (+2 racial)
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 9
Cha 7
Feats (Wizard)
Toughness, Dodge, Scribe Scroll
Special
Arcane Bond [Toad], Cantrips, Specialize (Evocation), Opp. Schools (Illusion & Necromancy)
Not very wise, nor socially savvy but can go toe to toe with some warriors (even hit point wise)
You can try this combo:
In your quest for self-perfection, you have discovered a way to further enhance yourself and others. When a transmutation spell you cast grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score, that bonus increases by 2. At 20th level, the bonus increases by 4. You must be at least a 10th-level wizard to select this discovery.A bit spell intensive, but you get to have +10 STR (Enhancement). Moreover, you are able to grab some other spells, like Barkskin or Good Hope.
Problem is that using the Spell Sage's Spell Study method to cast off-list spells is SLOW -- 1 round per level of the spell. Unless you have sure advance warning of an upcoming fight, you won't be able to cast the spell in time. In addition, the Idealize Arcane Discovery requires you to be 10th level, which means you won't get much time to enjoy it in PFS.
Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist doesn't get as big a bonus and doesn't have a way to snag off-list spells, but gets online a lot faster.
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^Unless something changed really recently, last I heard, PFS doesn't let you use Variant MultiClassing.