Fire immunity - magical or physical?


Rules Questions


If i have an outsider familiar with an immunity to fire and I polymorph it into something else, does it lose its immunity to fire? Basically, is its immunity to fire something that's dependant on its form or is it one of its magical abilities?

Bonus Question: Is the enhanced natural armor gained by the familiar from the wizard advancing in levels applied to the polymorphed familiar or lost when polymorphed like the familiar's base natural armor?

Sovereign Court

The fire immunity is probably lost. Just because it might be magical doesn't mean it's not dependent on form:

Polymorph subschool wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form


So we assume its dependant on form, then?

Also, anyone want to tackle the bonus question? :)

(At the moment I'm assuming I get to keep neither)


Ooh, polymorph... dangerous waters ahead!

Said waters do get muddied depending on where the fire immunity comes from. Polymorph does explicitly remove abilities dependant on form, but likewise permits abilities that are not. We are going to hit points where the explixit rules fall short and judgements must be made.

The problem occurs with creature types and subtypes, which polymorph does not address in either event (regarding leaving alone or changing).
It is strongly inferred and accepted that polymorph spells do not change your type/subtypes.

So, here are my answers. (All rulings past this part are those of the poster, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Paizo, etc etc.)

I posit to begin with that attacks which cause physical damage (as in damage the body) are affecting the "form" of the creature.

Lets take Contestant 1, a Night Hag. She is immune to fire, and if polymorphed, should lose it. Set that wascawy wabbit on fire.

Contestant 2, a fire elemental, if polymorphed, does not lose it's fire subtype, which grants it fire immunity and cold vulnerability. Therefore, it should be a fire immune, cold vulnerable cute little rabbit.

Contestant 3, an imp, likewise retains its devil subtype, which confers immunity to fire in addition to several other benefits. This horrid rabbit will chase you in the dark, sleep in your campfire, eat all the rat poison, and chew on your acid vials.

BONUS QUESTION: (again, personal opinions and rulings)

Firstly, polymorph doesn't affect natural armor outside of possibly giving bonuses to it depending on the specific spell used.

Even if it did reset natural armor, the bonus armor is a class ability that I do not feel is dependent on form. I see it as the mystic connection reinforcing the durability of this soul-linked being, similar to the shared saves, hit points, skill ranks, etc. Negative levels on the wizard would theoretically drop said bonuses.

So, polymorphing a familiar into a human will result with a human possessing natural armor, tender man-skin reinforced by the powerful magical energies suffusing the familiar. I would rule the same for animal companions as well.

Hope it helps, mileage varies, etc.


Good point that if your type doesnt change (having the fire subtype) that you should keep the fire immunity and cold vulnerability, thats exactly what I was looking for.

But, you mention "Firstly, polymorph doesn't affect natural armor outside of possibly giving bonuses to it depending on the specific spell used.", can we confirm this is the case, because i've heard the opposite from a different thread I made.

(The only thing referencing natural armor that i can see at first glance, seems to point to your understanding, but i havnt looked into it thoroughly yet, and as people like to point out, the rules are often written with humans in mind: "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.")


You've already quoted it: Core Rulebook - Magic - Schools - Transmutation - Polymorph = "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor."

It doesn't mention anywhere that your natural armor is reduced to zero and then you get the bonus from the spell. There simply isn't language to support that. I did in fact see the thread you mentioned, and the responses linked by Gauss from James Jacobs. The problem with that interpretation can be found in the same line we have both quoted:

If the "bonus to natural armor" must be applied after your original racial natural armor is reduced to 0, then the "bonus to ability scores" must likewise be applied AFTER removing any racial ability bonuses (not even going to get into if it would just be physical or both physical and mental). This is significant enough that it should and would require specific language calling it out, if it were the case. In fact, the Reincarnate spell (a DM headache if ever there was) does specifically state such changes,and also specifically mentions natural armor.

A quick search only reveals people confirming that the polymorphic spell applies it's effects "on top" of your existing ability scores. The language is identical in the paragraph; as such, both bonuses must either be removed or both must be retained.

There is also no reference that I can find that lists natural armor (or ability scores, while were on it) as being Extraordinary abilities and thus subject to the line: "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form."

I see many quoting that natural armor is an Extraordinary ability, yet I can find no source or rule to solidify that opinion. If one can be provided, I would happily adjust my ruling to that view. In it's absence, natural armor is neither explicitly mentioned as being lost nor falls under the general purview of the quoted line of lost abilities.

Regardless, the familiar bonus would still apply.


You make a convincing argument. So i'll tentatively agree that you keep both NA and type based immunities unless someone can quote something that overrules that. Thanks :)


Ascalaphus wrote:

The fire immunity is probably lost. Just because it might be magical doesn't mean it's not dependent on form:

Polymorph subschool wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form

Polymorph does not change a creatures type or subtype.

Immunity to Fire is granted by the fire subtype, which the creature retains while under the effect of a polymorph.

I.E. a fish with the fire subtype is just as immune to fire damage as a dragon with the fire subtype. The immunity is not derived from physical form. It is derived from the innate nature of the creature.


The last few posts have been about keeping natural armor when polymorphing though. The Black Bard makes a convincing argument for keeping natural armor when polymorphing, so unless anything overrules that I was agreeing that you'd probably keep both.

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Most of the polymorph spells don't give you a bonus to your natural armor, they grant a natural armor bonus. So it wouldn't supersede any existing NA but it also wouldn't stack. It's not like barkskin where the spell gives an enhancement bonus to existing natural armor.

As an example, say your familiar has a +4 NA bonus and you use a polymorph spell that grants a +3 NA bonus. Your familiar retains the +4, but it doesn't become a +7 any more than wearing studded leather and a chain shirt together would give a +7. You have two bonuses of the same type so they don't stack.

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