Tengu Swordmaster for PFS


Advice


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Been thinking of starting a new character for PFS. Been seeing a lack of scout and disable device capable characters. But I still want to fight competently.

So I was thinking Tengo, Unchained Rogue, with the Tengu special Swordmaster archtype. Here is the first pass. Not sure about it, I think I might be trying to do too many things. The bluff doesn't seem high enough to reliably give me sneak attack damage. So maybe I should ditch the combat stealing for a few feats to bump up his bluff skill.

tengu bladesman:

Male tengu unchained rogue 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 164, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 263, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
CG Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +18
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 69 (11d8+11)
Fort +7, Ref +14, Will +8; +2 trait bonus against mind-affecting effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 adamantine elven curve blade +13/+8 (1d10+7/18-20) or
. . +1 mithral wakizashi +13/+8 (1d6+5/18-20) or
. . bite +7 (1d3+1)
Ranged +1 adaptive greenwood composite shortbow +13/+8 (1d6+3/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack (unchained) +6d6
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +10 (+14 steal); CMD 24 (26 vs. steal)
Feats Combat Expertise, Dragon Style[UC], Greater Feint, Greater Steal[APG], Improved Feint, Improved Steal[APG], Long-nose Form[ARG], Mobility, Tengu Raven Form[ARG], Tengu Wings[ARG], Weapon Finesse
Traits deathtouched, freedom fighter
Skills Acrobatics +20, Appraise +6, Bluff +12, Climb +8, Craft (locks) +10, Disable Device +25 (+21 to checks if more than five feet away from device), Escape Artist +8, Fly +15, Knowledge (local) +16, Knowledge (nature) +6, Perception +18, Ride +5, Sense Motive +11, Sleight of Hand +18, Stealth +26, Survival +6, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Aklo, Common, Tengu, Tien
SQ debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, glide[ARG], rogue talents (bonus feat, combat swipe, fast stealth, opportunist, trap spotter), swordtrained, tengu rogue/ninja, trance, trances (dragon trance[ARG], leopard trance[ARG], serpent trance[ARG]), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear cat burglar's boots; Other Gear +1 shadow mithral chain shirt, +1 adamantine elven curve blade, +1 adaptive greenwood composite shortbow (+2 Str) with 50 cold iron arrows, +1 mithral wakizashi[UC], cloak of resistance +3, traveler's any-tool[UE], masterwork locksmithing tools, masterwork thieves' tools, thieves' tool extenders, mithral, 618 pp
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Special Abilities
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+4 to critical confirmations (Elven curve blade) Choose a weapon from those listed under the tengu's swordtrained ability. Add a +1/2 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls with that weapon (maximum bonus +4). This bonus does not stack with Critical Focus.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-6 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-6 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
Dragon Style +2 vs. sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) Move at full speed while using the Stealth skill at no penalty.
Glide DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height.
Greater Feint Feinted foe loses DEX until the beginning of your next turn, rather than on next attack.
Greater Steal Foe doesn't realize you've stolen from him until after combat.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Improved Steal You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when stealing.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 15+.
Long-Nose Form (Human, 1/day) Transform into a human with a long nose, granting +2 STR and scent ability.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Opportunist (1/round) (Ex) A foe who takes a melee hit from another provokes an AoO from you.
Serpent Trance (Ex) +4 on Bluff checks to feint while this trance is active.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +6d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Swordtrained Tengus are automatically proficient with swordlike weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).
Tengu Raven Form (1/day) Become into a Large black bird, as beast shape II. Fly 60 ft.(good), +4 STR, -2 dex, +4 nat. arm.
Tengu Wings (1/day) Grow wings granting you a fly speed of 30 ft. (average maneuverability).
Trance (14 rounds/day) (Ex) You enter a trance, gaining specific benfits from your active trance.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

btw: Does the rogue debilitating injury effects work on constructs?


Something that I know people like to do with Tengu Swordmaster's is:

Scout Archetype mixed with Tiger Trance, this basically a combat maneuver check to attempt to proc a Pounce with full sneak attack auto-applying.

Now CMB is hard to get as a rogue, but when you succeed you achieve some serious damage. Notably neither of these abilities requires you to make a melee charge attack, allowing you to make a thrown charging attack with TWF and Rapid shot for 3 attacks with sneak attack when you grab charging hurler.

But hey, if you want to be a bluff rogue, feel free.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The confusion on my part with this is PFS play starts at L1, and this is a L11 character.

Is it a direction of build consideration, or a GM credit baby?


Sorry, yes it would start at level 1 and build up.


Ok, still not perfect, but I lke this version better. I ditched the whole combat steal maneuvers to be better at bluffing for the improved feint. I also added the scout archtype and the tiger trance.

tengu bladesman:

Male tengu unchained rogue 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 134, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 164, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 263, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
CG Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +18
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 69 (11d8+11)
Fort +7, Ref +14, Will +8; +2 trait bonus against mind-affecting effects
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 keen adamantine elven curve blade +13/+8 (1d10+7/15-20) or
. . +1 mithral wakizashi +13/+8 (1d6+5/18-20) or
. . bite +7 (1d3+1)
Ranged +1 adaptive greenwood composite shortbow +13/+8 (1d6+3/×3)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack (unchained) +6d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 24
Feats Combat Expertise, Deceitful, Dragon Style[UC], Improved Feint, Long-nose Form[ARG], Skill Focus (Bluff), Tengu Raven Form[ARG], Tengu Wings[ARG], Weapon Finesse
Traits deathtouched, freedom fighter
Skills Acrobatics +20, Appraise +6, Bluff +22, Climb +8, Craft (locks) +10, Disable Device +25 (+21 to checks if more than five feet away from device), Disguise +0, Escape Artist +13, Fly +15, Knowledge (local) +16, Knowledge (nature) +6, Perception +18, Ride +5, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +26, Survival +6, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Aklo, Common, Tengu, Tien
SQ debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, glide[ARG], rogue talents (certainty, combat trick, fast stealth, trap spotter, unwitting ally[UC]), swordtrained, tengu rogue/ninja, trance, trances (dragon trance[ARG], serpent trance[ARG], tiger trance[ARG]), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear cat burglar's boots; Other Gear +1 shadow mithral chain shirt, +1 adaptive greenwood composite shortbow (+2 Str) with 50 cold iron arrows, +1 keen adamantine elven curve blade, +1 mithral wakizashi[UC], cloak of resistance +3, traveler's any-tool[UE], masterwork locksmithing tools, masterwork thieves' tools, thieves' tool extenders, mithral, 618 pp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+4 to critical confirmations (Elven curve blade) Choose a weapon from those listed under the tengu's swordtrained ability. Add a +1/2 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls with that weapon (maximum bonus +4). This bonus does not stack with Critical Focus.
Certainty (Bluff, 2/day) (Ex) Reroll skill check with selected skill (take better).
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-6 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-6 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
Dragon Style +2 vs. sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) Move at full speed while using the Stealth skill at no penalty.
Glide DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Long-Nose Form (Human, 1/day) Transform into a human with a long nose, granting +2 STR and scent ability.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Serpent Trance (Ex) +4 on Bluff checks to feint while this trance is active.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +6d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Swordtrained Tengus are automatically proficient with swordlike weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).
Tengu Raven Form (1/day) Become into a Large black bird, as beast shape II. Fly 60 ft.(good), +4 STR, -2 dex, +4 nat. arm.
Tengu Wings (1/day) Grow wings granting you a fly speed of 30 ft. (average maneuverability).
Tiger Trance (Ex) Make a maneuver check against opponent, then charge and make a full attack.
Trance (14 rounds/day) (Ex) You enter a trance, gaining specific benfits from your active trance.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unwitting Ally (Ex) As a swift action, opposed Bluff check to treat foe as ally for flanking.

Dark Archive

The main issues I'm seeing is that your AC and hit points are both too low. You will get creamed in melee combat. Your AC should be at least 7 points higher, and you really need a higher con to get your hit points to a reasonable range.


Your guy doesn't qualify for dragon style (need 15str). You could switch to crane style. That would boost ac a lot.

Silver Crusade

Looks like he didn't spend money on typical AC items like ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, or even a dex belt. I don't know how much money he was assuming to buy the equipment he has listed there, but if he spends on typical purchases like those, his AC will be a lot higher.

I'd also recommend putting favored class bonus in HP every level, since you'll be front lining with d8 hit dice on a race with a con penalty, so starting with a con above 12 is too expensive. That'll get you up to 80 HP at level 11. Still not spectacular for a front liner, but better.


Why a rogue you can get DD from traits if that's what you are after including dungeon delver ranger allowing you to use a cure light wand. medium armor, +1 bab, 6+ skills and a +4 bonus to linguistics which people overlook with characters. and prefered enemy human or something will balance you out.

I find that characters with little HP simply get swatted at and fall down, sword saint samurai is another version of sneak attack and feat progression in line with fighters for your chosen weapon I am sure the katana or Wakiz if you wanna go the dex route.

those character builders are really cool for npc building but not good for player characters starting at lvl 1. you are not lvl 11 yet all that means nothing.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nicholas storm wrote:
Your guy doesn't qualify for dragon style (need 15str). You could switch to crane style. That would boost ac a lot.

Swordmaster Trance (For Length):

Trance (Ex): At 3rd level, a swordmaster learns to focus her martial prowess using an intense meditative trance. Under the influence of a trance, the swordmaster can perform fantastic martial feats. Entering a trance is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The swordmaster can maintain the trance for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Wisdom modifier. At each level beyond 3rd, she can remain in the trance for 1 additional round. She can end her trance as a free action. Following a trance, the swordmaster is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 × the number of rounds she spent in the trance. A swordmaster cannot enter a new trance while fatigued but can otherwise enter a trance multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a swordmaster falls unconscious, her trance immediately ends.

At 3rd level, the swordmaster chooses one trance from the list below. She chooses another trance at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level. She can only use one type of trance at a time.

Crane Trance (Ex): The swordmaster's blade rises and falls with the graceful sweeping arcs of the mountain crane. When in this trance, a swordmaster gains the benefits of the Crane Style feat .

Dragon Trance (Ex): Like the dragon, the swordmaster has honed the steadiness of her mind and body. When in this trance, a swordmaster gains the benefits of the Dragon Style feat .

Leopard Trance (Ex): Using the swiftness of the leopard, a swordmaster's evasive footwork confuses her opponents. When in this trance, a swordmaster gains the benefits of the Mobility feat.

Monkey Trance (Ex): As the monkey springs, the swordmaster leaps from the reach of her enemies. While in this trance, a swordmaster can make an Acrobatics check opposed by an opponent's CMD. If she succeeds, she may move 5 feet as a swift action within the opponent's threatened area; this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Serpent Trance (Ex): Like the serpent, the swordmaster's quick movements allow her to catch her opponent unawares. While in this trance, a swordmaster receives a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to feint during combat.

Tiger Trance (Ex): The swordmaster pounces upon her opponents, striking with the ferocity and brute force of a wild tiger. While in this trance, a swordmaster can make a combat maneuver check against an opponent within charge range. If she succeeds, she may charge that opponent and make a full attack against that opponent.

This ability replaces all increments of trap sense.


He listed dragon style under feats. As a trance it's rather unimpressive.


it's not a good archetype, it has way too many holes in it for a simple get some style feats for a couple rounds, and then be worthless.


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I really can't see why you would take this archetype without using the tiger trance combo Shrouded listed above.


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The fact that entering a trance is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity is pretty brutal. Tiger Trance and the Scout Archetype is the only way I could see to make it really worthwhile, and even then it's really iffy because you still need to be able to charge - after using your first turn to do nothing but enter the trance. If your target or another creature gets in your face before your *second* turn begins, the whole thing kind of falls apart.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The trance ability is very situational and hard to use, but all you give up for it is trap sense. Trading out Disguise and Knowledge Dungeoneering for Knowledge Nature and Survival isn't bad depending on what else you are doing.

---

On the build:

You are putting a lot of resources into stealth (shadow armor, skill points, rogue talents). Given that, you should probably consider Dampen Presence from Magic Tactics Toolbox so you can use it against creatures with blind sense or blindsight.

You are also putting a lot into feinting. Might want to trade out other Long-Nose Form or Raven Form to get Greater Feint or trade Improved Feint for Two Weapon Feint. Could also look at the Cape of Bravado (basically a Matador's cape) to help with feinting.

You will want a wand or lots of potions of Lesser Restoration to take care of inopportune cases of fatigue.

As others said, your AC is really low. My fifth level Tengu Swordmaster has a better AC than this build. Might want to reallocate some of your spending to fix that.

Are you sure you want keen on your weapon rather than menacing? As a rogue, you already take a huge DPR dip when something is immune to sneak attacks, and most of the stuff immune is also immune to crits. At least with menacing you would be able to hit more often.

Good luck with your build. I've been having a lot of fun playing my Swordmaster Tengu, hope you do too.


It's true that if you're going Rogue, you're not losing all that much to have Trance around. I'm sure being stealthy makes it much easier to pull off.

For a more combat-sided combat/support character, I would probably build a "Tengu Swordmaster" as a Swashbuckler/Ninja wielding a falcata or katana with Slashing Grace. Swashbuckler grants major bonuses to DEX-based combat - Weapon Training, free early Improved Critical, Panache stuff including the extremely good Swashbuckler's Flair: Blue Scarf, Weapon Specialization if you want it, and a major Precise Strike bonus. 5 levels grabs the best stuff, though Precise Strike keeps scaling with level. Ninja grants a Ki Pool that can be used to make extra attacks and use Ninja Tricks, and a Ninja can take the Trap Spotter talent. 4 levels of Ninja grabs 3d6 Sneak Attack with Accomplished Sneak Attacker, a Ki Pool, and access to talents - Trap Spotter, plus maybe the awesomeness of Shadow Clone for combat.


Don't get too hung up on the magical items listed. I just threw a few on quickly to see what it looked like. It is no where near the total a PFS char of that level would have. So yes I'm sure I would have more AC items at that point.
I also see no problem with starting the trance in stealth then hitting and running away if necessary. Definitely not a hold the front line type character.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
I also see no problem with starting the trance in stealth then hitting and running away if necessary.

That is how I plan to use the trance when possible. The exception is the Serpent Style where I may back up and waste a round in order to feint against someone I can't hit otherwise. I haven't planned out everything the way you have. Then again, my swordmaster hasn't put anywhere near the amount of resources into feinting that you have.

Since this is for PFS, you might want to look at getting the Messenger vanity (Pathfinder Society Field Guide, pg. 63) on your wayfinder. At low levels being able to communicate with the rest of the group can be very useful.


From my own Swordmaster in PFS, I'd say consider picking up claws instead of swordtrained so you can go full natural attacks. Swordmaster trances still work despite not using swords and its better/cheaper. Just need an AoMF and Dex increasing items.

If you want to stick with swords, go for Estoc and Swordbreaker dagger. A.k.a. TWF if you want to maximize Tiger Trance.

But honestly from my own experience ever since I took the free rebuild to Unchained, I've been using Acid Splash and stealth a lot more than any weapons and it is just as effective.

Also Major magic for shield is pretty good.


Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
I also see no problem with starting the trance in stealth then hitting and running away if necessary. Definitely not a hold the front line type character.

If you can repeatedly pull off Scout/Swordmaster pounce charges, then spending every other round withdrawing might well be worth it. Running into situations where you can't charge is still an issue of course.

If you want to benefit combat ability further, you could take some Weapon Master Fighter levels; you lose almost no Sneak Attack if you take three levels of Weapon Master Fighter and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat, but you gain a feat (after spending one on Sneak Attacker), plus Weapon Training (which is a +3 bonus if you eventually buy Gloves of Dueling), plus a slightly better overall BAB. With Weapon Master 4, you can get access to some Advanced Weapon Training abilities like Defensive Weapon Training. Overall, Unchained Rogue is very multiclass-friendly once you've got 4 levels, and a few levels of Weapon Master Fighter or even some Urban Barbarian or Urban Bloodrager (DEX Rage and a Furious Weapon) can improve combat ability enormously.

Dark Archive

I'm not sure I see the draw of Tiger Trance. The trance itself is solid, but having to completely waste an entire round to enter that trance ("Entering a trance is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.") ruins the entire thing. How often will you be able to reap the benefits of a pouncing charge when you can never do it in the first round?


Everything else involved in trying to use Tiger Trance can be annoying, but what's really a brutal kick in the pants is the fact that after everything else you've had to do, you have to make a damn combat maneuver check, with Rogue BAB, with no normal CMB helpers. No weapon bonus, no flanking/dirty bonus, no Improved/Greater feats bonus, and if you're DEX-based you'd better have Agile Maneuvers. Don't fail though, unless you really like wasting your time in combat.

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