Advice - Help dealing with very high HP monsters


Advice

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

I'm currently playing a shadow sorcerer in an AP with friends and trickery and AoE effects have started having a negligible effect on monsters with 500+ hp and frequently true seeing [our GM is maximizing and increasing monster HP by an additional 50% because we're a five person party instead of the AP expected four]. I'm about to hit level 18 and I'm wondering what spell I can take / swap / shadow duplicate for that'll be most helpful for taking high CON/ High HP monsters down a bit more quickly once I've finished throwing out buffs and crowd control. The monsters aren't really threatening us; it's just taking hours and hours of IRL time to finish them off. Since we only meet once or twice a month, it's getting a bit frustrating. I'm currently leaning toward the shadow enchantment spells and just throwing save or suck will saves at them, but I wanted to check if there was a better way. :-)

Thank you for any help!


The better way is to tell the GM to not throw 500 HP enemies at you, because that's an unrealistic and imbalanced benefit to compensate for having 5 people in a party instead of 4.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

Heh. Well, I've already talked to the GM about it and suggested other ways he might increase the challenge. It doesn't look like he's going to, so dealing with the game as it is for now. :)


Save-or-sucks for the win here. Those 500 HP monster's won't be much of a threat as a shrew, or asleep, or charmed.


Maximizing HP = doubling it (slightly less than double for bad guys with PC class levels, but only very slightly less). Increasing by 50% of the maximized amount means it's totaling triple.

Yeah, save or suck, preferably stuff that can set up a coup de grace if it doesn't kill them outright. Or at least keep them downed long enough you can accomplish a narrative kill (off cliff, into lava, woodchipper trumps everything). Nothing with HP limits, obviously, so power words are out...


gatherer818 wrote:
Maximizing HP = doubling it (slightly less than double for bad guys with PC class levels, but only very slightly less). Increasing by 50% of the maximized amount means it's totaling triple.

Uh, someone with a d10 hit die, 16 con, and Favored Class (HP bonus) is going from 10 HP per level to 14 HP per level, or a 40% bonus. That's quite a bit off the whole "very slightly less than doubling it." Maximizing HP is generally about a 50% increase overall -- and for high Con monsters, it's usually considerably less. So we're talking about roughly doubling enemy HP, not tripling it.

Which, going by this chart, would mean they're fighting CR 16-17 monsters that would have 240-270 HP even without any adjustment.

Hell, if the party is level 17 right now (he said he was about to hit 18) fighting a CR20 mob with 370ish HP by default would be entirely reasonable as a difficult fight.

That said, if the monsters don't pose any threat that's another problem. The only reason they should have more HP is to make sure they live long enough to actually threaten the party...not to be an HP sponge.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Do ability damage and drain to their relatively lower ability scores, like Int, Dex, or Cha.

Save or Sucks work, too. Maybe try to target their ability to make saving throws? Forced re-rolls, penalties, negative conditions.

Or try to find offenses that don't allow saving throws, even if they're minor, and then try to exploit them.

Also, many many greater rods of Maximize Spell.

If combat is grinding to a halt, maybe try to reduce rolls and rulebook checks. See if you can do average damage. Roll all attack rolls at once, pre-roll dice before your turn, reduce reliance on summoned monsters, pets, and other tactics that vastly increase dice rolls.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

Thank you for the advice! I think based on this I might take greater shadow enchantment and use it to throw out mind fog and then hold monster and plane shift, switching out some other 6th level spell. It gives me flexibility since I can only swap one thing.

Thanks!


The first thing to do is talk to the GM. Seriously, if you're all bored from long lasting yet besically harmless battles, the GM needs to know that!

Increased number of players should be balanced by an increased number of enemies. That's not always possible, but most of the time it is, and not all encounters have to be equaly difficult, anyway. Everything else is imbalanced, one way or the other.


Dominate a few of his augmented encounters.

Save or Suck on the rest. Hit points are the last thing that should be targeted by a caster, unless highly optimized for blasting.


My personal favorite save-or-die option for a high-level shadow caster is using shades to duplicate trap the soul - works like a charm on pretty much everything.

Grand Lodge

Few options. As everybody has suggested save or suck.

Some nice options there I like possession. Dominate works too but possession seems funnier.

Metamagic enervation. I'm not familiar with all the details but It likely involves Maximise + Empowered and a quickened enervation.


The spell Suffocation doesn't care how many hit points they have.


Throw the Staggered condition at them. Really reduces what they can do. Happy kiting.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Do they still have that spell from 3.5 that conjured waves of green slime? It did 1d6 points of Con damage per 5 feet of spacing. So if these 500 hp brutes are Huge, they would take 3d6 Con damage. I think it was a high level druid spell, so you might have to Wish or Limited Wish it.

Empowered, Maximized (one via a rod)enervation + Quickened enervation is a nice way to give them 6 to 10 negative levels.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

@Derklord I've talked to him several times about it. He doesn't seem to want to budge on it. He's a good GM, I've enjoyed the game otherwise, and he's done some fun, clever other stuff even very recently with traps and symbols. We've been doing this campaign for quite a while now, so I'm willing to adapt to this issue and hopefully get him to try different tactics.

@Kolyarut The creatures all have very high CON so targeting Fort is probably not the best choice in this situation, but it's definitely an excellent spell.

@Grandlounge @SmiloDan If this current strategy doesn't work I may try level draining effects. Purely for RP reasons, I've tried to avoid that route. Everyone already assumes my shadow sorcerer is evil [I follow Desna!] and/or a vampire [I'm just pale!], which has become something of a running gag, and I'd rather not reinforce those opinions. Maybe I should just roll with it... :)

Thanks again for all the advice!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Ask your GM if you can change the visuals of enervation. Maybe they look like golden white lightning bolts? Maybe they look like heart-shaped mini-meteors? Maybe they look like a stream of black star-spangled butterflies?


There was the kinda old trick of finding a way to deliver Skinsend by touch or to a target, while your fellow fighter is there with a full round action available.

@Matt: Definitely deliver those spells by touch :D


Kolyarut wrote:
The spell Suffocation doesn't care how many hit points they have.

Hit 'em with a persistent (+2) extended (+1) bouncing (+2) Suffocation (5th) spell. You'll need a metamagic rod to pull it off, but hey, it's only money. Or don't pile so many metamagics.

Another interesting spell is Call the Void (3rd), targets Reflex instead, and works great against casters. Only downside is the melee distance required to work.

Still another is Bestow Curse (3rd/4th, greater at 7th/8th) which targets Will. Great vs. martials. Shut them down with multiple castings.

And last, but not least, Magic Jar (5th). Turn that beastie against your enemies.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:


Hit 'em with a persistent (+2) extended (+1) bouncing (+2) Suffocation (5th) spell.

Bouncing Spell is a +1 adjustment, not +2, but it doesn't work with Suffocation. Bouncing won't work if the spell has any effect on a successful save, and Suffocation makes the target staggered on a successful save.


Level drain sounds like a possible option. They come at you with empowered maximized HP, so hit them back with empowered maximized enervation.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Hit 'em with a persistent (+2) extended (+1) bouncing (+2) Suffocation (5th) spell.
Bouncing Spell is a +1 adjustment, not +2, but it doesn't work with Suffocation. Bouncing won't work if the spell has any effect on a successful save, and Suffocation makes the target staggered on a successful save.

Details. ;)

Really, six rounds of save-or-suck with double rolls is killer, even with high con. Three fails equals dead. Break out that Pugwampi's Grace to really give 'em a bad day.

Bouncing is good for some of the other spell.

/cevah


Persistent Plane Shift.

*poof*

assuming they can't just plane shift back to the combat.


Agreed, Plane Shift (to the Fire, Water, or Negative Energy planes) is a really way to kill something if you don't want their gear, at the very least neutralize them.

Greater Possession is good, too, assuming they don't have immunity due to Protection from X. You can have a friend coup de grace the body after you take control if you don't want to take its (high HP, muahaha) body around for a drive first.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Persistent Plane Shift.

*poof*

assuming they can't just plane shift back to the combat.

Plane Shift (5th/7th) is good, but not if there is some form of plane locking in place preventing teleportation/planar effects.

Persistent Baleful Polymorph (5th) into a slug.

EDIT: Dispel the BP later to get gear. Since they failed the will save, they think they a slug, so won't use it.

/cevah


Yeah, though still going up against the fort save, so harder to land.


In the campaign I played that had monsters with x10HP, I depended on dazing fireball or cast haste.


Be a necromancer. Once you slog through all those hit points, make them yours.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4

Thanks again to everyone for their advice. Got a session in and plane shift seems to be doing the trick against many of the monsters, and the fighters are able to take down the remaining stuff no problem. Plus causing their allies to just vanish has done wonders for inspiring fear of getting in melee with me, which I always appreciate as a squishy caster :D

Not that worried about the lost treasure. We're nearly at the end, so everyone's got their final equipment for the most part and I don't think we'll be going back to town again for more consumables.


Point 1) Increasing HP without increasing actual challenge is just the DM stalling for time. It also nerfs Evokers significantly. Not fun. Would avoid.
Point 2) Like other have said: Save-or-Sucks are the way to be. Get one for each kind of save, and make sure it's either a) permanent, or b) sets up for a CdG. Either way, you can get rid of the problem.

Seriously, though: your DM is either trying to make combat awful for themselves, or specifically for the casters. When I DM, I want the combat to be much shorter. Adding that much HP is just a time-sink for the narrative. It's largely pointless.

EDIT: Have you considered Magic Jar to take the HP for yourself?


I suggest linking this guide to your GM and encouraging him to read it.

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