4 Quick Questions: Wizard + Spirit Binder


Rules Questions


1) If my (spirit binder) familiar takes weapon proficiency (longbow) and then I polymorph it into an air elemental, can it use the bow? (people seem to think an earth elemental can use weapons, I wasnt sure about the anatomy of an air elemental though)

2) Given that the spirit binder familiar is a human soul, are the any restrictions on what feats it can take, for example, can it take deific obedience to pick up some spell-like abilities? Edit: Just realised deific obedience gives boons based on HD, I'm not 100% sure, but i think the familiar's HD never increases with level, so that could be a bad example. The question still stands though, even if the example is flawed.

3) I read in an old thread that the spirit binder's familiar can take improved familiar just like any other familiar can, is this still true?

4) Do the familiar's natural armor bonus increases from higher levels increase the natural armor bonus of their polymorphed form, or are they dependant on the original form and therefore lost when polymorphing?


Given the line below from Elemental Traits in the Bestiary:

Quote:
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.

I would assume that an air elemental could use weapons as long as it had a roughly humanoid form.


If this is for PFS there seems to be a fair amount of contention about whether Familiars are able to use manufactured weapons at all. The PFS FAQ when answering a question about Animal Companions and Familiars said, "Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons." It also specifies that Animal Companions (not Familiars) can only use neck slot items and barding. Familiars (and Animal Companions) can also activate an Ioun Stone if they have Int of at least 3. There is also a certain list of Familiars that can use Wands.

As for manufactured weapons on Familiars ... that is firmly between you and your GM. So unfortunately, expect table variation. This is currently being looked into by campaign leadership by the way.


Lune wrote:

If this is for PFS there seems to be a fair amount of contention about whether Familiars are able to use manufactured weapons at all. The PFS FAQ when answering a question about Animal Companions and Familiars said, "Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons." It also specifies that Animal Companions (not Familiars) can only use neck slot items and barding. Familiars (and Animal Companions) can also activate an Ioun Stone if they have Int of at least 3. There is also a certain list of Familiars that can use Wands.

As for manufactured weapons on Familiars ... that is firmly between you and your GM. So unfortunately, expect table variation. This is currently being looked into by campaign leadership by the way.

I assume it being an improved familiar: fey or outsider lessens the whole "can it use weapons" thing even being in question, especially if it has the mind and soul of a human anyway... it sure would explain why the FAQs only say animal companions cant, because after all there's miles of difference between animal companions and improved familiars. If you're sticking to an ordinary familiar (aka an animal) it makes total sense that they cant in their normal form, because obviously they have the form of an animal, which is why eldritch guardian explicitly states "an eldritch guardian’s pig familiar with access to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) would not gain the ability to use spiked chains, since it doesn’t have any limbs capable of properly handling them." Implying pretty clearly that if it did have limbs capable of wielding a spiked chain, it could.

In regard to fey and outsiders, the base creatures can use weapons before becoming familiars, so it wouldnt make sense to say they suddenly couldnt just because they are now controlled by a human soul or helping a wizard.

Wholeheartedly agree that animal companions dont use weapons though, being animals and all.


While I definitely understand where you are coming from and am not going to argue your interpretation is wrong I will say that in PFS you are likely to run into those who will have a different interpretation. I agree with your justifications and arguments of support.

Like I said, the question that was being answered was in regards to both Familiars and Animal Companions. While answering the question it refers to them separately so it is unclear if the whole thing is meant for both or only certain parts. And if certain parts, what parts.

By the way: using Brownie as an example the stat block for a Brownie has them using a Short Sword and doesn't include a non-proficiency modifier but yet the Brownie does not have Martial Weapon Proficiency in Short Sword. So the clause about "It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was"... sadly, doesn't really apply. Unless a GM wants to be kind and include that they should be proficient out of the gate as their stat block has them being proficient despite the lack of the feat.

I understand that you are talking about having your Familiar actually take the feat so your situation is a bit different. However, there will be those who apply the PFS FAQ rule to Familiars equally as they would to Animal Companions. Just trying to make sure you are prepared for that.


Lune wrote:
By the way: using Brownie as an example the stat block for a Brownie has them using a Short Sword and doesn't include a non-proficiency modifier but yet the Brownie does not have Martial Weapon Proficiency in Short Sword. So the clause about "It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was"... sadly, doesn't really apply. Unless a GM wants to be kind and include that they should be proficient out of the gate as their stat block has them being proficient despite the lack of the feat.

"A fey possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Low-light vision.
Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry..."

FAQ wrote:
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.

Note it specifically doesnt say familiars cant use manufactured weapons. (But I wouldnt expect forms without humanoid hands to wield weapons.)

Based on the FAQ alone, I'm not really seeing (if there is even people saying improved familiars with proficiency and hands cant use weapons) where anyone would be getting the impression they cant. Nothing in the FAQ that pertains to familiars says they cant, in fact in clear context it mentions animal companions not being able to, despite both being part of the same question. Unless theres anything to the contrary, it seems to be a pretty open and shut case.

Anyway, lets not derail the thread too much talking about assumptions and "PFS stuff", I'm just looking for answers to the 4 questions :)


I was answering your first question, SillyString. And, once again, you are preaching to the choir.

edit: By the way, you never answered... is this for PFS?


Lune wrote:
By the way, you never answered... is this for PFS?

In my games we use a lot of the PFS restrictions and rules for balance (i usually stick to 100% PFS legal for all of my characters and use those rulings to govern what I attempt) and so everyone is on the same page, but technically no, so if it comes to common sense issues we have that flexibility.


Well a lot of PFS rules go against common sense. For instance if you follow PFS rules you are going to have a problem even buying a Tiny sized weapon.


Lune wrote:
Well a lot of PFS rules go against common sense. For instance if you follow PFS rules you are going to have a problem even buying a Tiny sized weapon.

Who's talking about using a tiny weapon?


SillyString wrote:
Lune wrote:
Well a lot of PFS rules go against common sense. For instance if you follow PFS rules you are going to have a problem even buying a Tiny sized weapon.
Who's talking about using a tiny weapon?

Your character's girlfriend? :rimshot:


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Your character's girlfriend? :rimshot:

Ohsnap.


The art for Pathfinder depicts Earth Elementals as having thumbs. Indeed, going back and looking at all the D&D art and their appearances in licensed computer games, I can't find any art of Earth Elementals that don't have at least claws capable of grasping.

Air Elemental should be in the same boat. They aren't intangible and have a strength score, so there is no reason they can't use items.


SillyString wrote:
Lune wrote:
Well a lot of PFS rules go against common sense. For instance if you follow PFS rules you are going to have a problem even buying a Tiny sized weapon.
Who's talking about using a tiny weapon?

Me. Mostly in the second link I provided. ;)


SillyString wrote:
Edit: Just realised deific obedience gives boons based on HD, I'm not 100% sure, but i think the familiar's HD never increases with level, so that could be a bad example.
Familiar Basics wrote:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.


Avoron wrote:
SillyString wrote:
Edit: Just realised deific obedience gives boons based on HD, I'm not 100% sure, but i think the familiar's HD never increases with level, so that could be a bad example.
Familiar Basics wrote:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Oh cool, thanks! (You might have been able to guess I was fuzzy on that and couldn't find that quote) That'll open up some options :)

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