Grenades from Rasputin must die! why do they have a crit multiple?


Rules Questions


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alright I got one more for tonight

I was looking over it and noticed the gernades have a x2 crit but I would think a grenade would be an aoe and therefore not crit at all. so if I throw it at a target roll a 20 now all the targets within 20 feet have to make a reflex save or take x2 the damage?


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it works like a alchemist bomb if it crits only the target hit gets the crit damage everything else takes minimum damage from the splash


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Except that it does not explode until the following round so the target you hit could easily move out of the blast radius or pick it up and throw it back at you and you would not have another action before it went off the following round.

The description does not say anything about a target, just that it is an area effect. To me it is not the same as a splash weapon or an alchemist's bomb.


sounds about right 5(1 +4 int) x2 is 10 dmg from a chunk of flying shrapnel. sure the guy who gets hit will get blown in half. but a small chunk of flying metal/ceramic can still do a lot of damage to the guy standing next to him who can't make his dex check.


eh depends on the type of granade some explode the same round they are thrown only real use i see the timed granades is on my charcter thats immune to 2-3 different elements and does the joker thing were they got like 20 of those spesific elemental types of explosives all tyed to one string and when the string is pulled every one arround takes massive damage but im fine


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lady-J wrote:
eh depends on the type of granade some explode the same round they are thrown only real use i see the timed granades is on my charcter thats immune to 2-3 different elements and does the joker thing were they got like 20 of those spesific elemental types of explosives all tyed to one string and when the string is pulled every one arround takes massive damage but im fine

I just replied like that because the concussion and fragmentation grenades in the Reign of Winter have that line in their description.

"The device detonates at the beginning of your next turn, hopefully in the area you targeted."

Since the original post was in regards to Rasputin Must Die, I felt that was the most accurate grenade to site.

PS We actually just finished that book tonight and start on book #6 next week.


See now I feel like it makes less sense if they don't go off immediately to have that crit multiplier.


i stopped using timed grenades after my dm decided that we should play hot potato with a live grenade for several rounds. made using them useless and infuriating.


Should be able to cook them off or something.


My character had a grenade explode almost at her face because she didn't know what it was. It was funny.


It really does suck when the instructions are faded and end with pull trigger count to 3...


They come with instructions? It just looked like some sort of container, releasing its content looked like a good idea.
Fortunately, there wasn't a trench mist inside.
*Still scared of the trench mist grenades*


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The really devious grenades are inscribed with "pick me up".


I would love to use those on someone except I never met someone who hasn't seen that movie.


I blame Voluminous Vocabulary! If I couldn't read cyrilic I'd never have known that the damned thing was asking me to pick it up!


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I would love to use those on someone except I never met someone who hasn't seen that movie.

Don't know what you are talking about, so now you have met me.


Now I'm torn between recommending a movie and hoping one day to be running a game with you in it. *Evil laugh* Hmm I doubt you'd pick it up at this point however. so go see mom and dad save the world.


Recommendation taken!


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Or "Time Bandits".

Little kid : "Mom ! Dad ! It's evil! Don't touch it !"

Mom and Dad simultaneously touch evil object thought to be burned dinner in the microwave. (Explosion)

vid

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There's no actual direct attack roll (maybe an AC5 to hit a square as per alchemists), so they can't crit. It's just a misprint imo.


That is my first thought Too Darrell


It says "Pick Me Up."


Vidmaster7 wrote:

alright I got one more for tonight

I was looking over it and noticed the gernades have a x2 crit but I would think a grenade would be an aoe and therefore not crit at all. so if I throw it at a target roll a 20 now all the targets within 20 feet have to make a reflex save or take x2 the damage?

There is no general rule that AoEs cannot crit. What there IS is a rule that says only spells with attack rolls can crit (which precludes a Fireball spell from doing so).

People tend to confuse the two.


As they have delayed explosion the crit it's a weird thing, as the target can move before it explodes and, if it moves to another square, deny the crit.


Not really, unless everybody within the blast radius moves away, since there's also nothing limiting the crit to the initial target (particularly since grenades can target a square instead of a creature) whatsoever. Yes, even in the case of the Alchemist, though the rule that those in the splash take minimum damage still applies (meaning the crit damage amounts to an extra 1+Int over the normal splash).


Hmmmm... Fair enough.


Yeah this still sounds confusing maybe I should try and hit up one of the design team.


It's not confusing at all. If it crits, it crits everything within its blast radius. Simplicity itself.

The grenade is a weapon. Its base damage is 3d6 or whatever, and when it crits it doubles that to 6d6. It has a blast radius. Doesn't matter. Its damage is increased to 6d6.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sundakan wrote:
Not really, unless everybody within the blast radius moves away, since there's also nothing limiting the crit to the initial target (particularly since grenades can target a square instead of a creature) whatsoever. Yes, even in the case of the Alchemist, though the rule that those in the splash take minimum damage still applies (meaning the crit damage amounts to an extra 1+Int over the normal splash).

So where are the rules for grenade like weapons?

They are not thrown weapons, because those require an attack roll on an opponent and apply strength damage and I do not believe grenades would fall into that category.

They are not splash weapons so they do not follow the rules for those.

They are not projectiles.

I would just find it hard to rationalize that you targeted a square and rolled a natural 20 and backed it up so everyone in a radius of that square or vertices would take critical damage.

I looked through CRB and Ultimate Combat and couldn't find any rules for grenades in particular. Maybe it is in the Reign of Winter book 5 or somewhere else.


Yeah the fact you threw it just right into an area it set there for a few seconds and somehow does more damage because of how you threw it doesn't make any sense. I just don't think that was an intent Typo is making the most sense so far.


It is a weapon.

Weapons can crit.

Grenades are technically defined as "Alchemical Weapons" and are splash weapons as well.

At least as far as Fuse Grenades (from Ultimate Equipment) are concerned.

Quote:
This hollow clay container holds a small charge of black power and a slow-burning fuse. Lighting the fuse is a move action; 1d3 rounds later the grenade explodes, dealing 2d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 1d6 points of fire damage in a 10-foot-radius burst (Reflex DC 15 halves). You throw a fuse grenade as if it were a splash weapon. Crafting this item is a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check.

Likewise the header for Explosives in Reign of Winter is: "The following explosives shook the battlefields of the Great War. Making an attack with a grenade is similar to throwing a splash weapon."

So, they are Splash weapons.

Rules on Splash Weapons:

Quote:

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue’s sneak attack class feature).

You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can’t target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you’re aiming at the creature.

If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.

Mentions of critical hits: Zero, meaning there is no specific rule for Splash Weapons that overrides the general rules on critical hits.

You throw a flask of Alchemist's Fire and it crits, it deals 2d6 damage.

You throw a grenade that deals 3d6 damage and it crits, it deals 6d6 damage.

Fluff it however you like. Extra gunpowder packed in this one, maybe. It takes no more dffort to justify or excuse than a grenade rolling above or below average damage on its dice does. The damage is variable. This one is MORE variable.

Even were they not considered splash weapons, they are still weapons, no matter the sort. Weapons can crit.


So the idea would be If i throw the grenade at a target and hit with a crit that target takes double and everyone else takes the splash. While if I throw it at an area then the crit doesn't matter?

I guess you could say you beaned the guy in the head with it.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Yeah the fact you threw it just right into an area it set there for a few seconds and somehow does more damage because of how you threw it doesn't make any sense.

In any terrain other than a vast featureless plain, there are some places for a grenade to land that are more dangerous than others in terms of how the shrapnel will spread.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Okay, so it appears to use the splash weapon rules if somewhat modified based on that sentence from Reign of Winter.

If it is like a splash weapon, then you have two choices.

Attack a target

Attack a grid intersection

If you attack a target, then you could achieve a critical hit on that target and that target alone, not on surrounding creatures in the area of effect. Of course, the target could still move and be out of the blast area and suffer no damage or pick up the grenade and throw it back at you. I would assume that would require an attack roll from the target on you.

If you attack a grid intersection, then even if you roll a natural 20, there is no critical hit damage as there was no target.

That is how it appears to work with the latest knowledge from the adventure path.


LOL So They throw it at me Critical hit confirmed Oh no! So I pick it up throw it back at them. So is it no longer a crit? what if I crit again on the throwback. Say I roll a 1 to throw it back and drop it at my feet instead if it blows now does it still deal critical damage?

If it doesn't do critical damage from dropping it can I just pick it up and drop to not take double damage from my opponents crit.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
LOL So They throw it at me Critical hit confirmed Oh no! So I pick it up throw it back at them. So is it no longer a crit?

Your new attack roll replaces the old attack roll for whether or not it crits. This is consistent with my 'a crit represents good grenade placement' fluff above.


That is so weird. It means I could pick it up roll a 1 drop it at my feet but still take less damage then If i hadn't picked it up. Sigh. I'm just going to hope for something better for grenades in star-finder.


Well, if it somehow landed in a perfect 5%-chance position that would cause maximum damage, and then you pick it up and drop it randomly within a few feet of you (I don't think there's a rule for accidentally dropping it on your own feet), on average it's no longer going to be in such a dangerous place.

The most unrealistic thing is if the danger of the grenade isn't made worse by standing right next to it.


If you use a grenade launcher form the Technology book, the grenade explodes immediately. So direct hit and a crit with a grenade is possible.


WagnerSika wrote:
If you use a grenade launcher form the Technology book, the grenade explodes immediately. So direct hit and a crit with a grenade is possible.

See now that makes sense. grenade launcher hits them in the head and explodes.


In my iron gods game:

House rule that you can cook a grenade with a skill check. Craft: Alchemy for alchemy created ones, Know: Engineering for Technology. IIRC I set the DC @ 15.

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