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In Psychic Anthology there is an amazing series of undercastable spells called rend body. The first in the line says "Fortitude partial (see text)." However, nothing in the text references the saving throw or any reduced effect. It essentially doesn't seem to have a save, in practice.
What's supposed to happen when someone makes their save against rend body?
Or should it be "Saving Throw none?"
from the product thread, the designer chimed in
So, uh... I wrote that a while back and looking at my notes... I believe I intended that the Fort save would block the limb from being removed, but you'd still suffer full damage... but I might have also intended it to reduce the damage, but not the limb removal. I'm PRETTY sure it was to block the limb from being removed, but I'm not 100% sure.
That's a mixup on my part for not putting that explanation in there, but I don't want to claim official ruling on that.
The author in the product discussion thread said his intent was either that you always take full damage but Fort save prevents the limb removal (if the HP threshold is reached) or that the save was for half damage, but you still trigger the limb removal if you still hit the HP threshold. He wasn't sure which anymore and neither made it through the end. I think the latter is more reasonable, letting you chop up weaklings for style points even if they save, but given the generally low dice caps the former isn't crazy.
It might get resolved in a PFS clarification at some point. Just as big of an issue is the unprecedented "full round" casting time, neither standard or 1 round. It really needs to be standard so you can use Empower meta magic to hit the HP threshold and not hit a 1+ round casting time.
Thanks. That's not terribly helpful, but it's still good to know.
Yeah, I saw the odd casting time as well. I just figured it was a "psychic magic" thing to make their spells stand out more as being different.
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Yet another reason why I don't get player companions anymore.
Way too many issues like this.
Ok, I want to talk about this spell some more and rules interactions for limb removal and applying metamagic to this.
I think the intent (that is arguably well balanced) is that you always take full damage, the Fortitude partial save is to avoid limb removal if the damage exceeds the 1/2 (or 1/4) max HP threshold.
The "arguably well balanced part" is because of the novel "1 full-round action" casting time which I don't think exists anywhere else (other than another spell in this same book). This is a big restriction on Psychics, who have to extend spell casting times to use metamagic normally and need to use a move action to center and avoid a -10 concentration penalty. It's also well balanced because the dice caps are pretty low, and the undercasting mechanic makes most metamagic boosters pointless, you're better casting a full strength version rather than boosting a low level undercast version in most cases.
1. First issue: Ok, so what happens if you spontaneously apply metamagic to a "1 full-round action spell"? Let's assume you have a metamagic reducer or just didn't learn the highest level version so in your case juicing the damage of a lower level version makes sense. (Intensified Spell on Rend Body I is better than Rend Body II, otherwise there aren't any obvious benefits from applying Intensify, Empower, or Maximize rather than the equivalent higher level Rend Body version.)
If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
Straight RAW this would imply you spend two consecutive full-round actions to cast the spell. But that's probably not actually right because prior to this spell casting times went from standard to 1 round (or more), there was no full-round action to cast unless you already applied metamagic, so the rules don't contemplate what happens when you extend a full-round action one more increment.
My guess is if they cleaned this up and kept this spell as a full-round action they'd say the new casting time with metamagic is a 1-round casting time. But they might also just say "WTF" and change this to a standard action casting time.
2. Second issue: what are the game effects of losing a randomly chosen limb? There aren't any official ones. It's obvious what happens to your weapon/natural attacks if you lose an arm or front claw, but movement/prone is the big issue. I'd guess that 50% of the loss of wings or legs makes you lose your speed, 50% leg loss makes you prone (but able to crawl at some unknown speed if you have remaining limbs fit for that purpose?), less than 50% leg loss should make you walk (swim/climb?) slower and take a -2 trip CMD.
I really want to like this spell and wish it wasn't such a mess. I'm comfortable with the partial save above (which I expect will get a PFS clarification if this doesn't just get banned, which it may), but the weird casting time gives me fits, and the lack of limb loss rules is probably going to ensure, bad save editing and questionable casting time design choices aside, that this does get a PFS ban.
One more note before I abandon this subject until someone shows interest or it makes it onto the pfsrd.
If the damage reduces the target’s hit points to below 0, all of its limbs are affected in this fashion.
Not that it matters much at this point, but I presume this means you take 1/2 CL bleed for every lost limb, ensuring a very quick bleed out indeed, or hilarious results for a creature with Fast Healing that kicks in before it hits negative CON.
"I'm awake. What happened to me? Hey, where are all my arms and legs?!?"
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While I think this spell is pretty cool thematically, it really isn't all that powerful.
Since it caps (for rend-body I) at 10d6, on average you'll deal 35 points, which would only remove limbs from creatures with less than 70 max hit points.
Looking at the bestiary monster creation chart, monsters of CR6 have 70 hp on average. So you'll only be rending creatures you could probably kill easily with other less costly spells.
Unless you use metamagic to increase the damage (which is unclear exactly how it works as shown in previous posts in this thread), you'll only be ripping arms off of creatures of CR around 4 or more less than you.
Yeah, except for Rend Body IV (20d8 and only have to beat 1/4 max HP) this spell mostly functions to deliver low, reliable damage (no save for half no energy or damage resistance) to creatures that are otherwise resistant or have high saves. RB IV with a greater rod of Empower can do some work, but so can lots of options at that level and gold investment.
Psychic anthology also has a new pseudo-metamagic rod that let's you "overcast" a spell 3 times per day. So if you cast rend body III, this rod let's you get the effects of rend body IV instead (but using the rend body III spell slot and save DC).
Psychic anthology also has a new pseudo-metamagic rod that let's you "overcast" a spell 3 times per day. So if you cast rend body III, this rod let's you get the effects of rend body IV instead (but using the rend body III spell slot and save DC).
[Edit: the below is wrong, see posts below. Thanks for the correction, RD!]
It doesn't, because Rend Body IV Is the maximum version and that rod doesn't let you use the maximum version of an undercastable spell.
This rod can’t be used to cast the highest-level spell of a particular group.
I don't understand why they chose that limitation, to be honest. This book had lots of other balancing hills I would have chosen to die on before this.
But you can use a Recondite Rod to uprgrade a 6th level spell slot to Rend Body III effects (bigger dice cap and sicken if you remove a limb), sure.
I think that means you can't take rend body IV to a non-existent rend body V. It doesn't work when casting the highest level spell in the group, because there is nothing to upgrade to from there.
You're right, I misunderstood why they limited the greater rod to 8th level spells; it's so you can use an 8th level spell slot to upgrade Psychic Crush IV to Psychic Crush V (a 9th level effect), but you can't try to cast a 9th level Psychic Crush V and upgrade it.
Ok, this rod is a lot better than I gave it credit for, it's pretty cheap at lower levels, although weirdly between a +1 and +2 bonus rod in cost.
I agree with Ravingdork's interpretation on that Rod. I think the starting spell cannot be the highest version, not the ending spell.
And as long as you know the spell, you can combine the rod with 'undercast surge' to get 2 levels higher for 2 phrenic pool points.
Nice!
The average damage from 20D8 is 90 and since IV works just by doing 1/4 it works on anything with less that 360 HP which is most things and by the time it isn't enough raising the ceiling with rods or your own feats is trivially easy.
Well, it triggers half the time on anything with 360 HP exactly, which then gets a Fortitude save. So you still want to use it on things with weak Fort saves and/or relatively low HP if you want it to reliably trigger.
I just had a LOL moment imagining using this on a Marilith. Forget the arms for a minute, I want that 1/7 chance of taking the tail off. And no Heal skill, fast healing, or regeneration to easily shut down the bleed. Hmm, both hilarious and effective, pick it apart and watch the panic set in.
Kind of hard for most casters to cast spells when they don't have any arms. Hehe. :D
Yeah, but you'd have to use it twice and get lucky on the random limb choice to hit "arm" each time. By that point they're probably dead anyway.
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Missing limbs would fall under the rules presented in Chapter 5 of Ultimate Combat regarding called shots. Unfortunately this doesn't help PFS players.
The information can be found in the results for a debilitating blow. In regards to legs,
Called Shot: A called shot to a leg lowers the target creature’s speed by 10 feet for 1d4 rounds if it has two or fewer legs, and by 5 feet if it has three or four legs. In either case, the creature’s speed cannot be reduced below 5 feet per round. Called shots to the leg have no effect on creatures with five or more legs. Hitting the same leg more than once has no extra effect, but the speed penalty for hits on different legs stack. Additionally, any skill or ability checks involving movement (such as Acrobatics or Swim checks) take a –2 penalty for 1d4 rounds."
Called Shot: A called shot to an arm deals no additional damage, but for 1d4 rounds, any attack rolls, ability checks, or skill checks made using the wounded arm take a –2 penalty. A flying creature shot in the wing must make a Fly check to avoid descending involuntarily."
Yeah the worst thing about it is the saving throw being fort. ''Tis force damage though which is nice and easy for psychics to boost. Use that force phrenic pool and you can boost it to 20D10 which is the. Ripping the arms of anything CR20 or below and some higher. Heightened and with spell focus and greater that DC is 21 before INT, 23 with spell perfection, 25 with spell perfection if you are an abomination psychic dark halfing.
With a rod of persistent assuming 30 int(which can be higher) the save would be 35 role twice or loose your limbs. Which seems not bad
But that's 6 feats sunk into a very late game trick.
You could now probably do a proper force psychic blaster now, start off with toppling magical missile moving into the rend limb spells, you go from a controller to a very gruesome debuffer. Could be fun.
If only they got battering Blast lol that would simplify things.
EDIT: even high fort CR20 things are failing that more than they're passing it.
It doesn't have the force descriptor, so those boosts don't work. I could understand if it did, but I can also understand why it doesn't.
But with Force Punch at level 3 and now Burst of Force at 5th I do think there's enough to do a build around Toppling Spell and the phrenic amplification that boosts Force damage
You could also use the rules for missing limbs shown in the Skull and Shackles Player's Guide? They seem just as valid.
Why did I think it was force o.O
Sadly I don't have the new book so burst of force is a mystery to me. Force punch is a bit difficult since you have to get close to the opponent, and then hit them once and probably won't get chance to hit again since they've flirted off.
It's a good spell for spite though.
Burst of Force is a baby version of Telekinetic Storm. 20' burst from caster , 15d6 force damage cap, Fort save for half. If they fail that, Reflex save or be knocked prone. So half the range of Telekinetic Storm, smaller dice cap, no stun, no selective ignoring your allies. It's what I'd pick as a Spell Perfection goal if I were doing an Evocation force build, pick up Mimic Metamagic for my first major phrenic amplication and a cheap +1 rod, mix in Selective, Toppling, and for my free Spell Perfection boost Empower, Maximize, or maybe Persistent to taste.
Metamimcry mimicking such expensive meta is not really sustainable.
I'd go meta mimic intensify have empower, selective and persistent be a blend of rods and feats probably have persistent or Empower as a rod. That way you can have a quickened selective intensified and make it persistent/empowered one on top of a intensified empowered selective persistent one for 50D6 re-rolling saves on both or 60D6 rerolling only the first half.
Obviously using the force boost to make those D8s. A one level dip for Orcish sorcerer with the havoc bloodline mutation.
Resulting in 50D8+100 or 60D8+120
Both of which are pretty nice 325/390 damage with DC19 or DC21 (if abomination) before Int re-rolling one if not both saves.
And it's 3 phrenic amps per spell as opposed to 5/7 for the bigger meta's.
EDIT: for what's it's worth, the abomination one would also inflict AoE bleed.
You'd use mimic metamagic for a +1, a rod for a +1, and spell perfection for a +2 or +3. Since it emanates from the caster you need that move action, free metamagic or spontaneous metafocus required.
Why did I think it was force o.O
You thought so because the text says: "You lacerate the body of the target creature with telekinetic force..." How many telekinetic effects aren't force? If it isn't force then it does untyped damage. Given that this spell appears to have gone to press when it wasn't ready to roll, it is just as likely the [Force] descriptor was left off along with whatever we were supposed to see in the text about that Fort save.
I thought of it like Explode Head, which also isn't a force effect.
The PFS campaign clarifications were updated to include this.
A creature who succeeds at a Fortitude save against a rend body spell takes half damage and does not lose a limb. A creature who loses half or more of its legs from rend body has its movement speed reduced to 5 feet.
Combined with a failure to fix the casting time, this spell is officially garbage. A single target, fort half typeless damage with a kicker that is only useful against weak targets isn't competitive with other options like Suffocate, Disintegrate, or Resonating Word.
That's a shame.
Well, I still love this spell. It's seriously thematic.