Disregarding Intelligence and Charisma.


Advice


1 person marked this as a favorite.

With my latest pathfinder group, the GM is a tabletop veteran of 30+ years, but he has some interesting quirks that i'd like your opinions and advice dealing with.

To start things off, he and one of the players has a habit of being a bit "stuck in the past" when it comes to material, and most of the character and NPC stuff he uses (and wants us to use) is old 3rd edition conversions and home brews which causes some confusion and inconsistencies with the abilities of the party as we're all odd hybridised 3rd/pf characters. Which I get the impression has lead to a few players deeming it too confusing/frustrating and leaving in the past, and i can understand why... (as someone that likes to know and adhere pretty strictly to the rules, this often melts my brain)

But the main issue I have is the GM's disregard for charisma, charisma skills, sense motive and intelligence, which is something I have noticed a couple of the players taking advantage of. Given that I decided to roll up a very high charisma rogue before I noticed these quirks, its meant that whenever we encounter a situation wherein persuasion in the form of diplomacy or bluffing is required, the power-gamed 7 intelligence 7 charisma half orc with 0 skill points played by a "chatty" player is running rings around my "clever" "charming" rogue because the GM keeps saying "just role-play it" and unfortunately, i'm not as witty as my character's stats would imply.

(For context, with previous GMS i'd be asked to make rolls, get some input as to the desired result and then the GM would summarise the reaction of the people with a few sentences.)

I've tried addressing this politely and asking if I should actually make a bluff-check, diplomacy-check or similar whenever it would be applicable, but i'm swiftly dismissed by the... more "assertive" (louder) player or the GM himself. Obviously it is not my intent to cause problems with the group, so i'm seeking advice on how best to deal with these issues without rerolling and being channeled into "playing myself" for every character I make.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Character suicide and reroll, or find a group you're more suited to.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Best advice I can give you is to find a new group.

Silver Crusade Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd try to schedule some one on one time with the GM, explain your thoughts and reasoning at length, and see if you can get him to see your dissatisfaction and find a good middle ground. ^_^

If not... what they said.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Best advice I can give you is to find a new group.

I figured that would be the primary suggestion, but where i've recently moved to doesnt seem to have much of a tabletop presence, and I'd rather not burn bridges with one of the only groups that i could find, never know, a second table/GM might pop up nearby, gamers do tend to congregate...

To clarify, i'm not saying the RP is inherently bad, or even that its more frustrating than enjoyable, just that the frustration sometimes creeps up on me a little due to the "quirks".


1 person marked this as a favorite.

1. Talk to the GM and/or player. This is the best approach. The first issue is GM-only, so it's worth starting there.
2. Roll up a less social character, maybe of a new-in-Pathfinder class. Kineticist, for instance- only has physical stat dependencies, plus will saves.
3. GM yourself if you don't want to leave. It'll keep you in the loop, and may attract new people and potential GMs.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Talk to the GM. Explain how you built your character with certain assumptions and how the choices you made at character creation seem to be invalidated by the way they play. Ask to restat your character, because it's not working the way you planned.

You probably won't be able to fundamentally change how a long-standing group plays, so adapt to the style, you may even find that in the end you enjoy the way they do things. Dump your charisma and reallocate the skill points if those skills are not relevant (with the GMs permission) so that you can fit in with their style of playing.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I agree with dwayne, this alone doesn't mean you have to burn your bridges, but it's fair to ask for a rebuild now that you've figured out the way they play the game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Basically dwayne, Ascalaphus, and Kalindlara have the right of it, though if it is extreme enough where you just have too much frustration, the other advice - leave - is important for your own sanity.

Do be aware, with a group's interior understanding of the game, they may find your request at a complete rebuild to be off-putting, but that is neither wrongful on their part, nor is it wrongful on yours. What is happening is a serious play-style clash. This happens.

Humans do this all the daggum time with all sorts of subjects.

Communication is key, but, as has been demonstrated on these boards many a time, even communication doesn't always work, and it's not because the other people are bad - it's just that they hold a different belief or value different things, and that makes it difficult or impossible, conflicting with others' interpretations. And when people have their own view of things, it's really hard to get them to drop it, or admit that they're wrong - if they even are wrong (which isn't always really even the case).

Effectively, different people value different things, and hold to those values with different tenacities. It's quite possible, for example, that the GM used to have a problem player who was genuinely bad, and used to demand rebuilds all the time, until it was banned, so mentioning such a thing could raise the GM's hackles.

Or perhaps the GM was taught by the people he played with that those who seek rebuilds are min-maxers or munchkins or disruptive to the table or whatever.

Or perhaps the GM knows that if he allows you to rebuild, one of the actual min-maxers will never let it rest - and said min-maxer may well be a super-awesome friend in real life who is important to the GM: hence inviting to the game, even if they are a frustrating player to others... and by now, perhaps, those who are still around are no longer frustrated by the way the system works.

That's just how groups roll, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it could cause a serious problem.

In any event, the best thing is to talk with the GM personally, one-on-one, and explain your problems, but to do so patiently and with an understanding and conciliatory tone, instead of an aggressive or arrogant one. Explain that you're not just making a power-grab, but that you, personally, as a player, lack skills that he, the GM, demands of those players, for the role that you've chosen. As you can't perform the one thing you are trying to do for the party, you'd like to do something that not only makes you useful, but fun.

When you do this, lay out several options for him; first, of course, is your preference for more mechanics, but, barring that (which, if it's fine with you, should be made clear that it's fine with you), have at least one alternate character build, and a few potential suggestions for how those could be established. The ultimate goal, of course, is to work with the GM and the group to make the over-all experience enjoyable for everyone.

If you're serious about sticking with this group, and rebuilds are rejected for some reason, I'd recommend asking if you can just bring in a new character, as yours isn't satisfying anymore.

If that is rejected, I suggest the "suicide" route... but try to do it subtly. Don't go out of your way to just have your character cut his or her own throat - that often just leads to drama and distrust of your RP. So instead, have your rogue suddenly be a super-hero, take all the risk, run headlong into danger, and try to stab as many of the bad guys as you possibly can before you go down.

Don't wait for the fighter to flank the baddies, you flank the baddies, and take 'em down with gusto... at least until you're a pile of paste! Just finish a hard fight? Who cares! No need to waste healing on, "Cha-rogue, the invincible hero!" After all, you made a high Cha rogue, not necessarily a high Wis one... (though if you're also high-wis, this will be harder to explain): all that self-confidence and sense of superiority is now being misplaced into bravado and surety.

If anyone complains about your reckless tactics... well... not only does it fit with his stats (maybe), but also your character just isn't currently built correctly for the style of games this group enjoys playing. You're trying your best to fit in with their style, but at least this way he'll go out doing something useful, until you can make someone useful.

If you wish, you can wait until you're hit by a mental spell or some evil spell or something and use that as the catalyst to alter your player's personality. Or maybe even use the Paizo sanity or corruption rules on your own - sure the table might not be using those, but keep notes, and watch your own corruption and madness as a thing to role play (just... don't betray the group; don't do that thing, or you will never recover).

It doesn't even have to be death-by-damage: get corrupted by an evil artifact, attack the vampire without wooden stakes, fight the werewolf bare-handed, or just stop to breathe deep and smell that lovely yellow flowers...

Or do something more subtle than that. Being more subtle might be a good idea. ;P

One thing for this route, is that you could even work with the GM - if he's made aware that you aren't satisfied, see if you can work it out with him in-story that your character dies - perhaps even arrange a "noble sacrifice" or "wharf effect" death with him. And if you roll a 20 on such an impossible challenge or he rolls a 1... well, that could be memorable and fun, too.

Of course, such a thing might not be your cuppa. That's fine, too - it's just one suggestion of many.

But here's one more thing: if you know that would-be players have passed into and out of the game, due to frustration, it may be possible that those players are still around to game with. You might want to talk with the group, see if any of them still have that old contact info, and discuss things with those players, maybe even forming a new group. That might be the best of all.

Either way, I wish you and they good gaming. Peace!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well it's obvious the player of the half or isn't actually playing his 7 cha and 7 int. I wonder how they would take it if you brought up that he was literally ignoring those stats in regards how he should be playing the character?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
JosMartigan wrote:
Well it's obvious the player of the half or isn't actually playing his 7 cha and 7 int. I wonder how they would take it if you brought up that he was literally ignoring those stats in regards how he should be playing the character?

Co-sign here. This isn't "old school" mentality; I'm old enough to be old school, and I'd say that the player needs to either redo the stats to represent the actual charisma level of the character or role play the character as though s/he is both pretty dumb and not a very good communicator.

What this guy is doing isn't "old school". It's allowing powergaming under the excuse of "just role-playing it".

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Disregarding Intelligence and Charisma. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice