leveling and feat efficiency for an unchained rogue


Advice


For my Tengu Unchained rogue, I would like to have him dual wielding wakizashi's, with the ability to use slayer's feint to be able to Two Weapon Feint with Acrobatics in place of bluff. to do this with unchained rogue alone i would not be able to get two weapon fighting until level 5 and two weapon feint would have to wait until level 7. I am looking for advice on how to get to this sooner. The best I can come up with is taking 1 or maybe 2 levels of fighter after level 2, to get the extra bonus feats. (R1, R2, F1, F2, R3 wound get me all the desired feats and prerequisites as well as double slice by level 5)

is it advisable, inadvisable, or simply my choice to take those 1 or 2 levels of fighter, and is there anyway of getting the slayer's feint prerequisite feats (acrobatic and combat expertise) so as to get slayers feint sooner? I am just looking for options and what is considered advisable and what is not for a Pathfinder Society Character.

Silver Crusade

I don't know all the stuff you mentioned, but you said Combat Expertise is a prereq, so I have a suggestion on how to get that one for free. If you're dipping fighter for a level or two anyway, the Lore Warden archetype from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide gets Combat Expertise for free at level 2. It also gets extra skill ranks, though they have to be used on intelligence based skills. I think the main thing it gives up is heavy armor proficiency (and maybe medium, too? I don't remember), which you're probably not using as a rogue, anyway.

Sczarni

I second the recommendation for two levels of Lore Warden Fighter if you're planning on taking two levels of fighter anyway.

Bear in mind, the free Combat Expertise Lore Warden's receive does not need to meet the prereqs for the feat. So, you don't need to have an Int of 13 unless you want to. Also, although the two additional skills per Lore Warden level have to be spent in Int-based skills, the archetype also makes all Int-based skills class skills. Congrats, you can now be a Knowledge monkey.

Finally, although the Lore Warden does lose medium and heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency they retain full martial weapon proficiency.


only problem is I don't yet own the society field guide and not sure I can afford the pdf...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you have a copy of the ACG you might want to also consider Slayer. One level of Slayer is listed as an alternate prerequisite for slayer's feint, so that's one feat right there, and the second level talent can be used to potentially get you a bonus feat from a ranger combat style that you don't have to qualify for.

Scarab Sages

Let's see...

R1) Two-Weapon Fighting, Rogue Bonus: Weapon Finesse, SA 1d6
R2) Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
R3) Acrobatic, Dex-to-Damage, SA 2d6
F1) Two-Weapon Feint
R4) Slayer's Feint, Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
R5) SA 3d6
R6) Rogue Talent: ?????
R7) Improved Two Weapon Fighting, SA 4D6
R8) Improved Two-Weapon Feint

That would get you online with Dex-to-Damage at 3rd and Two-Weapon Feint at 4th (using Bluff), and Slayer's Feint at 5th, without putting you too far behind in sneak attack progression.

The problem with going the Lore Warden path is that you would need 2 levels of Lore Warden to get Combat Expertise, which means you won't get Dex-to-Damage from Rogue until 5th. You would get to Slayer's Feint earlier, though.

R1) *Acrobatic/Two-Weapon Fighting, Rogue Bonus: Weapon Finesse, SA 1d6
LW1) Fighter Bonus: Two-Weapon Fighting
LW2) Lore Warden Bonus: Combat Expertise, Slayer's Feint, Two-Weapon Feint
R2) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
R3) Dex-to-Damage, Open Feat (Skill Focus Acrobatics?), SA 2D6
R4) Rogue Talent: ?????
R5) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Rogue's Edge, SA 3D6
R6) Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Feint

*(EDIT: Sorry, Acrobatic isn't a Combat Feat, so you can't grab it that way. You would actually take Two-Weapon Fighting as the Combat Trick feat and Acrobatic as the Level 1 Feat. But you can play Level 1 with Two-Weapon Fighting and use the rebuild rules to swap to Acrobatic for free when you hit 2nd level, then use Combat Trick to pick Two-Weapon Fighting back up.)

So, Lore Warden gets you Slayer's Feint faster, at the cost of waiting until 5th level for Dex-to-Damage. In theory, it gets you an extra feat as well, but you'll probably end up wanting to spend that on Accomplished Sneak Attacker to make up for the lost Sneak Attack progression. Unfortunately, you can't do that at level 5 where you would want to, because it can never give you sneak attack dice more than half your level. Either way, you end up with Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 9th level.

Scarab Sages

Now, let me present this alternate option...

1 R1) Acrobatic/Two-Weapon Fighting*, Rogue Bonus: Weapon Finesse, SA 1d6
2 R2) Combat Trick: Two-WEapon Fighting
3 R3) Slayer's Feint, Dex-to-Damage, SA 2d6
4 Snakebite Striker Brawler1) SA 3D6, Brawler's Cunning (Don't need 13 Int prerequisites), Improved Unarmed Strike
5 B2) Combat Expertise, Brawler Bonus: Improved Feint
6 R4) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
7 B3) Greater Feint, Snake Feint (Feint as part of a move action)
8 B4) AC Bonus +1, Knockout 1/day
9 B5) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Feint
10 R5) SA 4D6, Rogue's Edge
11 B6) SA 5D6, Open Feat (Improved Will?)

*(EDIT: Sorry, Acrobatic isn't a Combat Feat, so you can't grab it that way. You would actually take Two-Weapon Fighting as the Combat Trick feat and Acrobatic as the Level 1 Feat. But you can play Level 1 with Two-Weapon Fighting and use the rebuild rules to swap to Acrobatic for free when you hit 2nd level, then use Combat Trick to pick Two-Weapon Fighting back up.)

So that ends up being more Brawler than Rogue, but you end up with almost full Sneak Attack dice.

You end up taking both Improved Feint and Two-Weapon Feint, but that allows you to take Greater Feint instead of Improved Two-Weapon Feint. Greater Feint still works with Two-Weapon Feint just fine to deny the target Dex for the rest of your attacks. It ALSO denies the target Dex against everyone else in your party until the start of your next turn.

Improved Feint means you would still get one sneak attack reliably starting at 5th, and you won't be taking the -2 penalty from Two-Weapon Fighting. You can still use Two Weapons, so if you get a flank you still get a full round of sneak attacks.

Once you get Snakebite Striker 3, you get Snake Feint. This lets you feint as part of a move action, provided you have Improved Feint. So you can feint while moving up to someone and get a sneak attack in the first round, even if you lose initiative and they are not flat-footed.

You would not need a 13 INT, thanks to Brawler's Cunning. Brawler is a 4+Int skill point per level class, so it is a significant drop off from Rogue in terms of skill points, but it isn't ridiculously low like Fighter.

Brawler would give you more hitpoints, and a good Fort Save, which is a major weakness of the Rogue. You'd get Improved Unarmed Strike as a throw in.

Liberty's Edge

Acrobatic is not a combat feat, and cannot be taken as either a fighter bonus feat or via the rogue Combat Trick talent.

Scarab Sages

Shisumo wrote:
Acrobatic is not a combat feat, and cannot be taken as either a fighter bonus feat or via the rogue Combat Trick talent.

See my edit in the second post. You take Two-Weapon Fighting at level 1, then use the rebuild rules to swap the level 1 feat to Acrobatic when you hit Level 2. Then take Two-Weapon Fighting with either the Fighter Bonus Feat or the Combat Trick. I didn't provide that explanation in the first post. I meant to.

EDIT: You are correct that the first Rogue build doesn't work right. You'd have to take Acrobatic at 3rd and Two-Weapon Feint with the Fighter Bonus Feat at 4th. So that would slow down getting Two-Weapon Feint by 1 level.

EDIT, EDIT: I was still within the time limit, so I went back and fixed the original post.

Scarab Sages

Ok, sorry. I typed all that quickly, so there were some errors. Somehow I got Slayer's Feint ahead of Combat Expertise. I think it will be hard to get around the INT 13 requirement, unless you're willing to wait until 4th level for Dex to Damage. Here's what that would look like:

Snakebite Brawler 6/Unchained Rogue 5:

1 R1) Acrobatic/Two-Weapon Fighting*, Rogue Bonus: Weapon Finesse, SA 1d6
2 R2) Combat Trick: Two-WEapon Fighting
3 B1) SA 2D6, Brawler's Cunning (Don't need 13 Int prerequisites), Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise
4 R3) Dex-to-Damage, SA 3d6
5 B2) Slayer's Feint, Brawler Bonus: Improved Feint
6 R4) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
7 B3) Greater Feint, Snake Feint (Feint as part of a move action)
8 B4) AC Bonus +1, Knockout 1/day
9 B5) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Feint
10 R5) SA 4D6, Rogue's Edge
11 B6) SA 5D6, Open Feat (Improved Will?)

So that puts Dex-to-Damage to 4th. It also puts Slayer's Feint to 5th, but that's not a big deal, because you don't have Improved Feint until then anyway.

You would take Two-Weapon Fighting at 1st, then rebuild it into Acrobatic. Then take Two-Weapon Fighting with Combat Trick at Level 2, so you're never actually without it.

If you're planning to have a 13 INT regardless, then you could keep 3rd level as Rogue and make the 1st Brawler level 4th.

Also, I don't know if Double Slice is worth the feat or not. It's going to mean +3 or +4 damage on your off-hand attacks, but compared to the sneak attack damage that's not a big deal. It will mostly matter when you're fighting something immune to sneak attacks and with DR (so, basically, elementals). If I were to fit another feat in somewhere, I'd try to get Piranha Strike. It gives a penalty to hit to go with the damage bonus, but the damage bonus is ultimately more than you'd get out of Double Slice, and it applies to all of your attacks. If you don't have the Sargava book, though, Double Slice isn't a terrible choice. You've just got a build that depends on a lot of feats, so it's tough to work another one in there. The Lore Warden build could take it at 5th.


I own CRB, ACG, APG, ARG, PU, UC, and UE. I cannot afford to buy any other books, especially if I want to access them in hero lab. so some of your good ideas I am unable to use...

Scarab Sages

Snakebite Striker is in the ACG, so it would still be an option. I think everything listed in that build is from one of those books.

Piranha Strike would not be an option, as it's from Sargava, The Lost Colony. That's not a huge loss.

Lore Warden, as you noted above, isn't an option.

So, at its simplest, Unchained Rogue with one level of Fighter can get you Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Dex-to-Damage, Combat Expertise, Acrobatic, Two-Weapon Feint, Slayer's Feint, and Weapon Focus by 5th level. A second level of Fighter would let you pick up Double Slice instead of Weapon Focus. A third would put you on track for +6 BAB at 7th and Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 9th. I think that's the fastest path I can see for a Tengu unless you go Rogue 3/Fighter 5.

Rogue 8/Fighter 3:
1 R1) Two-Weapon Fighting, Rogue Bonus: Weapon Finesse, SA 1d6
2 R2) Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
3 R3) Acrobatic, Dex-to-Damage, SA 2d6
4 F1) Two-Weapon Feint
5 F2) Slayer's Feint, Double Slice
6 R4) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
7 F3) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8 R5) Rogue's Edge, SA 3D6
9 R6) Improved Two-Weapon Feint
10 R7) SA 4D6
11 R8) Improved Will

Everything in that list should be in one of the books you own.


Per the Unchained FAQ, no effects can increase the Dex to damage modifier, so Double Slice would provide no benefit here.

Sczarni

I don't see where you're getting that Double Slice doesn't work.

Walk me through your thinking?

The example given is about increasing a bonus (Overhand Chop), not about mitigating a penalty (Double Slice).

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Pathfinder Unchained FAQ wrote:
However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.

Double Slice increases the multiplier to your Strength bonus on your off-hand damage rolls from 0.5 to 1.

Sczarni

No, it does not.

Double Slice (Combat) wrote:

Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.

Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.

Double Slice allows you to add your regular bonus.

It's not increasing anything. It's mitigating a penalty.

Overhand Chop and Double Slice are very different effects.

Grand Lodge

Double Slice has been confirmed not to work as of the FAQ. I asked Mark Seifter in his thread a while back just to make sure.

Silver Crusade

Huh. I never knew that. I was just assuming I'd pick up Double Slice on my unchained rogue, to get full dex added to damage on all attacks. Time to change the plan.

Sczarni

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Double Slice has been confirmed not to work as of the FAQ. I asked Mark Seifter in his thread a while back just to make sure.

Link?

Grand Lodge

I asked over a year ago so it's buried deep in his ask thread somewhere.

But it's kinda common sense from the FAQ wording. It says that you only get increased DEX to damage from 2 handing weapons, and that anything else that would increase the STR modifier to damage foes not increase DEX. And double slice changes your offhand from .5 STR to 1.0 STR.

Edit: found it. Link His response is about half way or so down the page.


Nefreet wrote:

I don't see where you're getting that Double Slice doesn't work.

Walk me through your thinking?

The example given is about increasing a bonus (Overhand Chop), not about mitigating a penalty (Double Slice).

There is no penalty, there are just different bonuses. Double Slice increases the Strength bonus multiplier for off-hand attacks from 0.5 to 1.0 x the Strength bonus. The FAQ says that no effect will increase the Dexterity bonus multiplier beyond 1.0 for on-hand weapons, 0.5 for off-hand weapons, and 1.5 for two-hand weapons.

The Mark Seifter response on Double Slice is here.

Sczarni

That post is before the FAQ, and wasn't concerning Unchained Dex-to-damage, which is worded differently from both Agile and Slashing Grace.

Let's make this clear: there is a distinction between increasing a bonus (Overhand Chop) vs mitigating a penalty (Double Slice).

You can equate it to 1.0 > 0.5, but you'd be incorrect. In Pathfinder's system "bonus" and "penalty" are clearly defined terms.

Overhand Chop affects bonuses.

Double Slice affects penalties.

The FAQ is clear how to treat bonuses. It has zero impact on mitigating penalties.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I really don't see how you can characterize the 0.5 Str on an off-hand attack as a penalty. It just is what it is. Double Slice is increasing the multiplier on the Strength bonus you receive on a damage roll. That is pretty clearly within the FAQ.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
That post is before the FAQ, and wasn't concerning Unchained Dex-to-damage, which is worded differently from both Agile and Slashing Grace.

Pete's quote may have been before the FAQ, but the one Jurassic Pratt pointed out is not.

Grand Lodge

Yup, my post from Mark is after the FAQ Nefreet.

It'd be great if double slice worked for rogue's DEX to damage, I don't even think it'd be overpowered in the least. However, it simply doesn't as of the FAQ.

In home games I let it work, but for PFS its gonna stay that way.

Sczarni

I will continue to dissent, since Mark's more recent comment still doesn't make that claim, though if the common interpretation is that it doesn't work, that's enough for me to reconsider my TWF Rogue. Facts don't matter if perceptions of them differ.

That's a shame, but at least my Rogue is still rebuildable. I wouldn't enforce this idea if I came across such a character during a game, but I'd at least inform them of table variation.

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