Skirmisher tricks for Hunter pet confusion.

[Eigengrau]

I know that you can teach your Hunter pet tricks from the Skirmisher archetype but most of those tricks seems to be for the Skirmisher himself. Am I missing something here? Please help me understand the importance of this.

[EvilMinion]

The pet becomes the Skirmisher, in that context.

It also uses the pet's wisdom/HD to determine how often he can use them.

[Eigengrau]

Thanks I was hoping that was the case.

[ShroudedInLight]

The text isn't very clear on that front, is it?

Regardless, just remember that there is no Animal Companion with more than 15 natural Wisdom so your trick usages is quite limited.

[Eigengrau]

Yeah it will be limited. I was thinking of maybe just grabbing 1 of the tricks. I think it was Vengeance Strike.

[ShroudedInLight]

I particularly like:
-Cunning Pantomime (Literally: "What's that Lassey? Timmy fell down the old well?)
-Quick Healing (Your AC can now use potions on unconscious people as a move action)

Marvelously useful when it comes up, due to the limited uses per day I dislike the tricks that are only useful in battle. You have so many other things to keep track of, I prefer the tricks for utility purposes.

[Quandary]

The tricks normally done by the Skirmisher himself are easiest to handle assuming Pet "is" the Skirmisher.
ShroudedinLight mentioned # tricks and Pet default WIS score, but it isn't actually clear to me whether one should use the Pet's WIS score or the Hunter's WIS score... Given we are using the Hunter's level NOT the Pet's as effective Ranger level, why should the Pet's WIS be used as modifier to (1/2 Ranger level + WIS) formula?

But some tricks are funky in that the Ranger normally is using the trick, but it has some effect on the Companion/ grants free action to Companion, etc. What happens when the Companion is using the trick instead of the Ranger? Is the effect on Companion now transposed onto the Hunter themself? (i.e. the Hunter "is" the Pet and is the one granted the free action/bonus) Or should the trick's effect on the Pet still be applied to the Pet themself?, even though that normally is different creature than the one using the trick in normal Skirmisher scenario. This is for Tricks like Bolster Companion, Heel, Sic 'Em. That could work, but I feel is ALOT less implicitly clear than saying the Pet "is" the Skirmisher.

Some tricks are just unclear how an Animal Companion really is to use them, because of nature of Animal. E.g. Cunning Pantomime (effect when "caster" is not intelligent creature themself?) Quick Heal (capacity to make Heal check/administer Potion relevant?) Hateful Attack (Favored Enemy reference?), Trick Shot (seemingly assumes ranged attack, but states "can make ranged attack" = granting ranged attack???)

Now some of these working could be very cool, as ShroudedinLight describes, I'm just unsure what limits might apply here... Hateful Attack and Trick Shot in particular, should the Pet get the Hunter's own FE bonus for this purpose if they "are" the Hunter for purpose of the trick? (which likely is related to question of whose WIS score is used for # tricks/day) Should they be allowed to use Ranged Weapon for Trick Shot? Even if one imposes physical form capability there, that still would increase above norm in PFS where even Ape Companions are normally disallowed weapons AFAIK.

Also, these are treated as Handle Animal Tricks that the Hunter "commands" the Companion to use, which is a Free Action for a known trick with your Companion. But unless specifically noted, Free Actions happen on your turn, while several of the Skirmisher Tricks are "reactive"/ would be triggered by situations during the COMPANION'S turn (or other creatures' turn), not the Hunter's, thus how does the Hunter "command" them (free action) during Companion's (or other creatures') turn? e.g. Aiding Attack reactive to Companion's own attacks, Bolster Companion reactive to when Companion is attacked by some other creature (although unclear who qualifies as Companion in this case, since the Companion is one ultimately using the trick, not the Hunter themself), Catfall reactive vs. falling, etc...

Paizo has ruled to allow certain Free Actions off-turn, namely drawing arrows for a bow, but that did not GENERALLY allow Off-Turn free actions, so this needs ruling to allow that if intended (?).

Also, if Skirmisher Tricks may now be taught as if they are Handle Animal Tricks, does that mean that ANY/ALL of them may be used "untrained" with a "Push" Handle Animal Check (Move Action when commanding your Companion)? That would still consume the daily usage allotment, of course. (and Move Action Pushing may preclude use of "reactive" tricks unless you want them to use it during Hunter's own Turn and the Trick is compatable with that)

[Cavall]

Quandary wrote:

The tricks normally done by the Skirmisher himself are easiest to handle assuming Pet "is" the Skirmisher.

ShroudedinLight mentioned # tricks and Pet default WIS score, but it isn't actually clear to me whether one should use the Pet's WIS score or the Hunter's WIS score... Given we are using the Hunter's level NOT the Pet's as effective Ranger level, why should the Pet's WIS be used as modifier to (1/2 Ranger level + WIS) formula?

But some tricks are funky in that the Ranger normally is using the trick, but it has some effect on the Companion/ grants free action to Companion, etc. What happens when the Companion is using the trick instead of the Ranger? Is the effect on Companion now transposed onto the Hunter themself? (i.e. the Hunter "is" the Pet and is the one granted the free action/bonus) Or should the trick's effect on the Pet still be applied to the Pet themself?, even though that normally is different creature than the one using the trick in normal Skirmisher scenario. This is for Tricks like Bolster Companion, Heel, Sic 'Em. That could work, but I feel is ALOT less implicitly clear than saying the Pet "is" the Skirmisher.

Some tricks are just unclear how an Animal Companion really is to use them, because of nature of Animal. E.g. Cunning Pantomime (effect when "caster" is not intelligent creature themself?) Quick Heal (capacity to make Heal check/administer Potion relevant?) Hateful Attack (Favored Enemy reference?), Trick Shot (seemingly assumes ranged attack, but states "can make ranged attack" = granting ranged attack???)

Now some of these working could be very cool, as ShroudedinLight describes, I'm just unsure what limits might apply here... Hateful Attack and Trick Shot in particular, should the Pet get the Hunter's own FE bonus for this purpose if they "are" the Hunter for purpose of the trick? (which likely is related to question of whose WIS score is used for # tricks/day) Should they be allowed to use Ranged Weapon for Trick Shot? Even if one imposes physical form capability...

The animal companion can use skirmisher tricks when commanded, a number of times per day equal to half its Hit Dice plus its Wisdom modifier

The "it's" tells us it's the companion. Not the hunters wisdom.

Secondly while the animal may feel you are it's pet, you aren't. It lacks an animal companion feature.

Thirdly it says you may teach skirmisher as of its a trick, not treat them as animal tricks in and of themselves. So I'd say pushing is a no go. Even if you were to be allowed to push it to do a skirmisher hunter trick, it would still be hot by the hard limit of wisdom plus half hit die.

The tricks allowed themselves should be ones that a skirmisher (not a companion of a skirmisher), and one it is capable of doing. As such a ranged attack is unlikely because it has none to make.

[Quandary]

OK, but there is still huge amount of ambiguity.
The examples mentioned by SiL as possible (Pantomime, Healing) were ones I had doubts on viability of, as cool as they are.

The ability just does not clearly indicate how to handle ranger/companion transposition.
The companion is not a ranger just as much as you are not it's pet.
Assuming one of those is reversed is just as viable as assuming the entire relationship equation is reversed,
the latter having less problematic implications requiring further judgements/interpretations re: specific tricks.

The tricks like Heel do include a result of "companion does something" which could still work EITHER transposed as actual Hunter does something OR actual companion does something [handwaving trick's secondary action/direction to get directly to the meat]. Or they just could not work, but it would be nice to know that.

Paizo has ruled some "linked" Free Actions (drawing arrows) can be taken "off turn", but is this such an example or not? (e.g. Vengeance Strike, Catfall) If they want to rule that Free Action Trick commanding can ALWAYS be done immediately/"off turn" (just as talking can), that would be useful to know for basic gameplay of NORMAL Companion class scenarios. (which would make Companion Handling substantially easier, yet by that promote following the Handle rules strictly)

[Cavall]

Yes but the companion learns skirmisher tricks. That means it's the "skirmisher."

In order to do those tricks it would need an animal companion. Nothing listed in the hunter or animal companion write ups gives them one. So it's not a viable option for them.

Vengeance strike and cat fall are both immediate actions.

So it's not a free action. If something made it fall 30 feet then 30 more it could only do the trick once.

As its immediate actions the common sense assumption is for those tricks it could be out of turn, as that's the only way to use them