Where are we at with familiars and wands?


Rules Questions


I've read a ton of threads on the subject and am no closer to a clear answer. I'm especially interested in the pseudo dragon and the pooka (my alignment is neutral and mephits don't work so well with the concept). What's the official word? Thanks.

Sovereign Court

Right now, nope, can't use them.

Unfortunately, anyone who's in on the discussion about how to clean up the tangle of rules about familiars will be under NDA so they can't tell you in which direction or how fast the discussion is going.


So wait, not a single familiar can use them? Not even the faerie dragon? I thought they at least had the green light.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If we are talking for PFS, the list I have is: Brownie, Faerie Dragon, Imp, Lyrakian Azata, Mephit, Quasit and Sprite.


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For PFS the list is limited by the FAQ on using magic items.

PFS FAQ on magic items:
Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?

It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.

Animal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies. In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either. However, an item called out to be used by a specific animal is usable by that animal regardless of slot.

Additionally, animal companions have access to magical item slots, in addition to barding and neck, as listed on the inside front cover of the Animal Archive so long as they select the Extra Item Slot feat. The Animal Magic Item Slots table found in Animal Archive is not a legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.

The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

PFS FAQ last updated in 2014. The Biped(hands) section of the chart is what allows wand usage.

It is much looser in the home game setting given Animal Archive or an understanding of spellcasting and magic item usage.

Someday the PFS list might be updated. I'm hoping Soulbound Doll, several spell using outsiders (with or with out hands but capable of making fine manipulations), spell using fey, and others will be added to the list. Given that the original creators of PFS intended that animal companions and familiars could not use magic items and have stated such, I am not all that hopeful.

Sovereign Court

Kneller: I meant that the familiars you asked about (pooka and pseudodragon) can't.

Edit: right now it's only the list in the FAQ that can use them.


This applies to potions as well?

Personally, I would think so (it just makes more realistic sense that a an extremely simple item like a potion could be used by a "dumb" not particularly dexterous creature). I feel like it's still very strong and useful when used with certain improved familiars, and overpowered broken (unfair) if allowed with regular familiars.


Familiars can use anything for which they meet the requirements of activation. Hands. Voice. Check. Check. May use a wand.

Sovereign Court

@Brother Fen: in a home game, sure. In PFS, it's a lot more limited.


If it matters, we're not playing official society rules, which sounds more limiting than just going by the books.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, PFS is more limiting than the standard Pathfinder rules.

Animal Archive has a chart giving what body shapes have which item slots. If your familiar has hands, some GMs would say that is enough to UMD a wand. Others may allow it once the familiar gets Speak with Master. Still others require that it be able to normally speak a language.

You should ask your GM what they will allow.


Ascalaphus wrote:
@Brother Fen: in a home game, sure. In PFS, it's a lot more limited.

Yep. This ain't the PFS forum!

A GM that doesn't allow a familiar that meets the requirements to use magic items is making their own rules. It is allowed. PFS has it's own rules, but this wasn't a question for PFS as stated in the OP.

Sovereign Court

I got the impression OP was thinking about PFS because of the way his question was worded. But fair enough, let's talk about the non-PFS case.

Outside PFS the official word is a combination of Animal Archive (to find out which creatures can hold a wand) and the core rulebook (to find out what you need to use a wand).

Animal Archive, Front Inside Cover wrote:
Creature body types marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, though they may not be able to use such items effectively (GM’s discretion) and take penalties for nonproficiency as usual.

And the asterisk-marked categories are Avian, Biped(hands) and Biped(claws/paws). Notice also how extremely "mother may I" this rule is.

That's sort of where it breaks down though, because there's no source telling us what the body types of the improved familiars are. Some are obvious, others less so. So you'll have to rely on pictures in Bestiaries for that...

---

Apart from being able to hold the wand the Spell Trigger activation type also requires speaking a command word, so the critter needs to be able to speak. One way of determining this is to look at the critter's Bestiary entry and see if it has a Language line. If it has a language it can speak. (Creatures that understand but can't speak get a "can't speak" note on that line.)

Whether the "speak with master" ability also suffices to speak command words is doubtful;

Quote:
Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.

The familiar doesn't gain the ability to vocalize other languages, so I don't think that would enable command words. Maybe command words set by the familiar's master specifically.

---

So, upshot of this is that raven and thrust familiars would be able to use wands (avian, can talk), provided the GM lets them. Apart from that it's almost exclusively improved familiars.

As for pookas: they clearly have paws, and are probably bipeds. And they can talk. So they look like good candidates for wand use.

Pseudodragons are less likely. First off, it's not clear at all if they should be classified as Biped and thus be able to hold the wand. Second, their language-speaking ability is somewhat in doubt;

Pseudodragon wrote:


Languages Draconic; telepathy (60 ft.)

...

They often only vocalize in chirps, hisses, growls, and purrs, but can communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature.

Sovereign Court

Brother Fen wrote:
A GM that doesn't allow a familiar that meets the requirements to use magic items is making their own rules. It is allowed. PFS has it's own rules, but this wasn't a question for PFS as stated in the OP.

The problem here is that one of those requirements is that the GM doesn't decide to disallow it:

Animal Archive, Inside Front Cover wrote:
Creature body types marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, though they may not be able to use such items effectively (GM’s discretion) and take penalties for nonproficiency as usual.

Exercising that officially given discretion isn't a house rule. Meeting the requirements is necessary but not sufficient to get your way. The GM has explicit permission just to say no.


Dot.


The weird thing is that pseudo dragons have draconic listed as a language, so it seems like they are capable of speech, just prefer not to use it (and would instead default to telepathy). Or so it seems.

Another weird thing is that the FAQ lists sprites as being able to UMD, but they're diminutive in size. Imagine it trying to weird a wand three size categories too large. But a pooka one size larger that can swing a dagger is a no go?

Sovereign Court

Like I said, the ability of pseudodragons to speak is in doubt, it's not certain they can't, either :)

"The FAQ" that you're referring to is probably this one. It's for PFS, and it was made in march 2012. Before It doesn't have any bearing on home games, but in PFS it's of course the law of the land.

It's a selection of familiars that at the time were the only ones meeting the criteria for wand use; but by setting down this specific list, it closed the door to newer familiars that also would have met the criteria.

The pooka is from Bestiary 4, which was published in october 2013, so that explains why it isn't listed in the FAQ. (Yeah, that thing needs an update, badly.)


I'm going to talk to my GM, but I think he'll be fine with the pooka. How does she fly, though? Just magically? At first I thought it implied that her flight stats were attributed to the Raven form, but comparing stats, she flies way better than a raven.


Also, can you point me to the rules that say familiars and wizards can use each other's skills (i.e. UMD)? Thanks.


Kneller wrote:
Also, can you point me to the rules that say familiars and wizards can use each other's skills (i.e. UMD)? Thanks.

PRD says;

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers.


A creature either can or can not do something. Being a familiar doesn't change that unless it is specifically stated.

As an example if an Imp(not a familiar) can use a wand then an Imp(familiar) can also use a wand.

Kneller, what a GM would need in order to prove familiars get treated differently than any nonfamiliar is a rule that says so.

The way the rules are written are that they apply to all creatures unless a specific exception is given.

There are exceptions such as blink dog and naga sorcerers who don't have hands, but that is because the creatures fail to work as intended without considering an unofficial ruling given on the boards.


So how do pookas fly? Just rando magical ability?

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:

A creature either can or can not do something. Being a familiar doesn't change that unless it is specifically stated.

As an example if an Imp(not a familiar) can use a wand then an Imp(familiar) can also use a wand.

Makes sense, normally. "The FAQ", for PFS, does it differently because not everything that would be interesting on an NPC in a scenario would be a good fit in the hands of players.

Quite a few home games seem to use PFS rules as a "sanity check" because in 90% of the cases, if it's banned in PFS there's something deeply wrong with it. However, this FAQ is one you're better off ignoring because it's very old and crummy.


I'm pretty sure I'm good on the wands front, but I still want to know how pookas fly in their normal form. They aren't described as having wings and they're basically half rabbit half humanoid.


I think there's some rule somewhere that says assume Flight (Su) if the creature doesn't have obvious physical means of flight.

Sovereign Court

It's a highly magical creature. It flies with... magic!

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