x_Gabriel_x |
So I will be starting a campaign soon, and will be using a Tiefling Antipaladin of Lamashtu, and currently trying to plan ahead to lvl 10/11 in advance so I know which feats to take.
Hitting level 5 and coming to fiendish boon, I'm having an issue trying to determine which would be the best choice. Getting an enhancement bonus on your weapon for X minutes a day can obviously be helpful, basically a free +1-6 magic weapon for 1-2 combats depending on scenario.
The other, fluff wise and fun(Midwife profession, worshipping Lamashtu, yay monsters), is the fiendish servant... having a permanent summoned monster that can be changed out for something stronger every 2 lvls, that gets the fiendish template and come 11th gets the advanced on top to add more survivability.. Dretch Demon at level 5, then a Babau Demon at 9th with either a Shadow Demon or Succubus at 11th
The servant, although can be killed/dispelled, seems pure damage wise, they would do more overall damage. At level 7, for 7 minutes I can add +1 to my Greatsword, so typical fight, say 10 rounds, thats +10 damage.. +20 at most if another encounter is a room or two away... or have a Fiendish Lion(Tiger if I can get it), with 15ac(can get it hide barding for 19AC for 60g) 32hp, 40 move, a bite(1d8+5+grab) 2 claws (1d4+5) plus rake and if I read this right.. hp = 5d8 meaning its a 5HD creature, from the fiendish template it also has DR 5/Good and Fire/Cold Resist 5... Darkvision 60ft, Spell Resist 9, and Smite Good 1/Day(Useless for this one anyway)
If it dies, then yes I have no pet, cant get a new one for 30 days or till a lvl, and -1 hit/dam. Same penalty if my weapon was destroyed eith the fiendish spirit on it, but the pet most likely to die before my weapon is destroyed..
So I guess my real question is... would taking the Fiendish Servant, over the Fiendish Spirit for the weapon bonus, really be a bad choice? Was also looking at possibly taking the Vile Leadership feat at lvl 9 to try and get another demon cohort as a follow... possibly walking around with 2 Babau Demons, which have sneak attack and dispel magic at will and constant see invis... seems like a load of fun...
x_Gabriel_x |
Yeah, it starts with the Fiendish, and at 11 you get the Advanced template added. Higher chance of losing your pet vs weapon, and if you lose your pet you'll feel the difference easily due to it not being therr to attack.
30 days, could be anywhere from 3 to say 30 fights? Assuming atleast 1 fight a day, or multiple with few day break during travel and no encounters, you would clearly feel the loss of the servant more, assuming your weapon wasnt destroyed which I think would be a bigger penalty, no bonus, loss of possibly magic weapon etc...
But unless the GM specifically targets the servant, or you're stupid with it, they should have good survivability... The Babau Demon at 9th would have(without getting it special armor) 19AC 73HP, DR 10/Cold Iron-Good, 10 Fire, Cold, Acid, Immune poison electric, SR 17, before adding the Fiendish template if that stacks with currant abilities... if someone can verify or not, Fiendish Template says they gain DR and SR, does that stack with currant ones? Meaning its DR would go from 10/Good to 15/Good and 10 resist to 15? It gains CR +5 Spell Resist, which would be 12, if it gains and is added to currant, itd have 29 SR, on top of having 2 +12 claws (1d6+5) bite +12 (1d6+5) with 2d6 sneak attack... with a CL7 at-will Dispel Magic.... It also gets Smite Good 1/Day with 16 CHA, so a +3 to hit, and its hit die, 7 to damage...
Someone correct me if Im wrong about the Fiendish Template added to currant defensive abilities?
Lady-J |
nope it uses the better of the 2 unless the template would add dr 10/magic or some other type of dr then the dr would be 10/ magic and good however the better of the demons is the xill it can twf with bows so you can keep it at a distance and still have it outputting relivent dpr you could also talk to the dm about letting the demon gain a small ammount of class levels instead of being replaced by a higher level cr demon when you level up at higher levels
McDaygo |
I played a Drow Antipaladin of Zul and went the demon. Honestly I never usednit till I can summon a Succubus. Because I was a face I had the demon use the detect thoughts to give me what I needed and Inused my crazy ass bluff check to brutally manipulate an NPC. When I upgraded to a fiendish T-Rex he was fun butnhis size made him not useful all the time and about time I got top tier I didn't even use my glazebo (Any reason I had for wish was pure RP). Use wise the weapon may have been better
x_Gabriel_x |
I seen the Glazebo, but can you actually use the wish spell? Goin by what Summon Monster says, Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
Also, just realized I misread the template. Its not added to demons anyway, only animals, none of which typically have DR etc. So the Babau etc wouldnt get any bonuses until 11th when they get the advanced template
Claxon |
Personally I think the weapon is the better way to go. You can add things like unholy to your weapon or just straight increase the enhancement bonus.
It also depends on how much your GM guns for companions or how many other players are at a table.
Honestly, if there are already a lot of player pets just slow down combat, and it can be rude, depending on the group. It's actually a big problem I have with necromancer or binders.
Also, I haven't done the math but have you compared the attack roll these creatures have versus average AC of enemies?
McDaygo |
I seen the Glazebo, but can you actually use the wish spell? Goin by what Summon Monster says, Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
Also, just realized I misread the template. Its not added to demons anyway, only animals, none of which typically have DR etc. So the Babau etc wouldnt get any bonuses until 11th when they get the advanced template
Yes you get to use all the monsters SLA but if you read Demons revisited you know the dangers of demon wishcraft. While your character doesn't gain the mark, others would.
x_Gabriel_x |
As far as I know, the monster summoned gets what it has in the book. Usually no armor, but sometimes a regular weapon(Babau comes with a longspear) You could give them armor, but I dont think they have proficiency so they'd take a - to their hit based on the armor check penalty.
Player wise there are 6 of us, and someone always has a pet or summon monster type stuff going.
Maybe taking Vile Leadership at 9 and trying to get a demon cohort(evil campaign, in chilaxia) would be the better option as they gain class levels and could get feats etc..
Just kind of like the idea of running around with 2 Babau's possibly, throwing out my damage, plus the crazy amount they could get as well with their normal damage plus sneak attacks
x_Gabriel_x |
Also, I haven't done the math but have you compared the attack roll these creatures have versus average AC of enemies?
Well, going with my current favorite choice, at lvl 9 the Babau has a +12 to 3 attacks. My Antipaladin before bonuses has +9/+4, lets say I have 18 str come then, with power attack and furious focus, I believe thats thats +13/+6. Not adding in for possible magic weapon. Assuming flankig for both of us since working together, Add Cornugon Smash for -2 ac(essentially +2 to hit) the Babau would have a +16 to hit, Id have if my math is correct +17/+10. So the Babau would have a better chance overall, with an extra attack, to hit than my Antipaladin. Not including smite good or any othrr bonus damage from any other affect, the Babau would do essentially 3d6+5 damage each hit. Id do 2d6+10? 4str bonus, 2 for TH weapon, 4dam from PA? Always been bad at adding that stuff up... the Babau would technically deal a higher average of dpr than I would myself?
Our group is pretty great, combat tends to move fast even with summoned monsters or pets(previously campaign) we had my Sorcerer constantly summoning stuff, plus a Ranger with a companion, on top of npcs as a pirate crew.
Lemartes |
As far as I know, the monster summoned gets what it has in the book. Usually no armor, but sometimes a regular weapon(Babau comes with a longspear) You could give them armor, but I dont think they have proficiency so they'd take a - to their hit based on the armor check penalty.
Player wise there are 6 of us, and someone always has a pet or summon monster type stuff going.
Maybe taking Vile Leadership at 9 and trying to get a demon cohort(evil campaign, in chilaxia) would be the better option as they gain class levels and could get feats etc..
Just kind of like the idea of running around with 2 Babau's possibly, throwing out my damage, plus the crazy amount they could get as well with their normal damage plus sneak attacks
Well if it has a standard treasure value you should get that too no?
As for SLA's you can't use greater teleport and summoning as per summon monster rules.
QuidEst |
No, summoned monsters don't come with standard treasure.
Still, definitely go for demon summoning, no question! Perma-Summons is a much cooler feature, and by the time you hit succubus, it's amazing. At-will Suggestion with telepathy is fantastic battlefield control. The mechanics and RP of Fiendish Summons is the main reason to take the class, in my view.
Lemartes |
No, summoned monsters don't come with standard treasure.
Not saying you're wrong but where does it say this?
I ask because it's a mistake that a lot of DM's make with monsters which is not adding its treasure as gear.
So a high level demon might have a wand of fire balls or whatever. I don't see why a summoned monster would not get this possible gear. If I'm wrong I would like to know. Thanks.
QuidEst |
QuidEst wrote:No, summoned monsters don't come with standard treasure.Not saying you're wrong but where does it say this?
I ask because it's a mistake that a lot of DM's make with monsters which is not adding its treasure as gear.
So a high level demon might have a wand of fire balls or whatever. I don't see why a summoned monster would not get this possible gear. If I'm wrong I would like to know. Thanks.
Not gonna bother looking that one up. If you think that the rules allow summoning creatures for unlisted magical items, especially ones with charges, then Summon Monster X is way too good in your games. It falls solidly in the category of something you'd need to convince a GM of, even if you checked the rules and there isn't a specific line saying it wasn't the case. Summoners would summon creatures, use the gold for quick payments and leave before the summons ended and the gold disappeared. The GM would need to figure out what treasure each summons had, just in case it mattered.
Where does it say treasure is gear and should be included in a summons?
Claxon |
I assume the monster has typical gear for a monster of its type?
I think it has only the gear listed in its stat block, and any gear you might give it out of your own WBL. No other valuables.
Claxon wrote:Well, going with my current favorite choice, at lvl 9 the Babau has a +12 to 3 attacks. My Antipaladin before bonuses has +9/+4, lets say I have 18 str come then, with power attack and furious focus, I believe thats thats +13/+6. Not adding in for possible magic weapon. Assuming flankig for both of us since working together, Add Cornugon Smash for -2 ac(essentially +2 to hit) the Babau would have a +16 to hit, Id have if my math is correct +17/+10. So the Babau would have a better chance overall, with an extra attack, to hit than my Antipaladin. Not including smite good or any othrr bonus damage from any other affect, the Babau would do essentially 3d6+5 damage each hit. Id do 2d6+10? 4str bonus, 2 for TH weapon, 4dam from PA? Always been bad at adding that stuff up... the Babau would technically deal a higher average of dpr than I would myself?
Also, I haven't done the math but have you compared the attack roll these creatures have versus average AC of enemies?
The babau has two attack sets, but honestly the first is better with 2 claws and a bite than using the spear and bite. It has +12 to attack and will do 3d6+15 if all attacks hit. Sneak attack damage is trickier to factor, but could raise it to 9d6+15, which is good if they're getting sneak attack. But position in such a way to allow this isn't always possible.
You're level 9, so you should have some stat enhancing item and a magic weapon. You should probably have at least 20 strength, and probably a +2 weapon, at least using Automatic Bonus Progression as a guideline you will. So, you have 9+5+2 = +16 to attack. Using power attack you have a -3 to attack rolls, but a get a +9 to damage from using a 2 handed weapon. You get +7 damage from strength. +2 form magic weapon.
So you're doing 2d6+18 damage (assuming greatsword) with a +13 and +8 to attack. But, if you use Blade Tutor's Spirit which is a great spell you have, you're attack is back up to +16/+11.
Not factoring in sneak attack if all the babau's attack hit it does 25 points of damage on average. Not factoring in any smite or the extra damage you could gain from the bonded weapon if both your attacks hit you deal 50 points of damage, of course that second attack is going to have a harder time hitting.
Point is, your character even not particularly well built will deal more damage than the babau.
Also, Cornugon Smash which you mention causes the shaken condition, which will decrease their attack rolls and saves. Which means while they have a harder time hitting you, you don't have an easier time hitting them.
And do keep in mind that since it works as a summon, protection from evil keeps it from attacking.
Lemartes |
Well first if I was DM I wouldn't allow pc's to use the monster's gold for payments.
I'm just going by the fact that a monster's CR is based on its gear which is a part of its "treasure".
Again I'm not saying you're wrong I just am curious to know what other people think.
Looks like Claxon is agreeing with you. Guess I'm wrong.
This has never come up in my games. No one seems to use summon monster in my groups. :)
QuidEst |
Well first if I was DM I wouldn't allow pc's to use the monster's gold for payments.
I'm just going by the fact that a monster's CR is based on its gear which is a part of its "treasure".
Again I'm not saying you're wrong I just am curious to know what other people think.
Looks like Claxon is agreeing with you. Guess I'm wrong.
This has never come up in my games. No one seems to use summon monster in my groups. :)
A monster's gear is part of its treasure, yeah, but only the listed stuff is assumed to be its gear. While it might vary for monsters you encounter, summons are standardized for convenience and balance. Sorry for my standoffish tone!
Lady-J |
Xill isnt an option due to being Lawful Evil. You can only use Chaotic Evil or Fiendish Animals for the servant
if you take the tyrant archetype(changes your alignment from chaotic evil to lawful evil) you might be able to convince the dm to let you use lawful evil buddies instead of chaotic evil buddies
Claxon |
Well first if I was DM I wouldn't allow pc's to use the monster's gold for payments.
I'm just going by the fact that a monster's CR is based on its gear which is a part of its "treasure".
Again I'm not saying you're wrong I just am curious to know what other people think.
Looks like Claxon is agreeing with you. Guess I'm wrong.
This has never come up in my games. No one seems to use summon monster in my groups. :)
I've just always assumed that "gear" is stuff listed in the stat block the creature will actually use.
Treasure is treasure, and is a reward for PCs for defeating the monster. I've never included "treasure" as part of the challenge against the creature.
x_Gabriel_x |
Ya I messed up the shaken part, my bad. Pro evil would work vs the 3 natural attacks, but it still has a longspear +12/+7 (1d8+7/x3). My base str is only 16. I went for 18 CHA, so damage would be down just slightly.
I do get that fiendish boon going for weapon can give more damage as well. Since this is an evil campaign, assuming I have found or bought a +2 Greatsword, boon gives +2 making it a +4 if I want, or a +3 unholy(most things we fight prolly be good) or if it works this way, and they stack, vs a Paladin a +2 unholy anarchic greatsword, doing essentially 6d6+17/18 damage.
I just really like the idea of having the fluff of being a Lamasthu follower, who is a midwife, bringing monsters into the world from town to town(find and kill current midwife, use disgiuse self, do her job) while having a demon/fiendish pet following me around as well.
I guess the other option would be take fiendish boon for the weapon, and at level 9(since cornugon is avail at 7) take the Vile Leadership feat, and attempt to get a Babau or other demon as a cohort or however the feat works with attracting, which would be better than the servent due to gaining class lvls, having feats etc.
x_Gabriel_x |
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also keep in mind that if you go with the weapon your stuck with that one perticular weapon forever so if your party finds a nice +3(insert nice other enchantments here) weapon that you could use you woundt beable to use your weapon boon ability
Uh... where do you see that? Its a standard action to give your weapon the boon. If the weapon that is bonded is destroyed, you lose the use of the ability to call it for 30 days and suffer a -1 hit/dam. If you read the faq, a Paladin can expend 2 uses of his divine bond to infuse 2 weapons or both sides of a double weapon.. i assume an Antipaladin can essentially do the same as well
Going by that, if during an adventure, we find a +3 Greatsword, I can take it then and there, use it, and next fight if I have any uses of my ability still, call my boon to that new weapon
x_Gabriel_x |
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If a weapon bonded with a fiendish spirit is destroyed, the antipaladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until he gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the antipaladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Thats what happens if its destroyed. You lose the ability for 30 days and -1 hit dam. After 30 days you're good to go.... think you're mistaken
x_Gabriel_x |
Also... going by the FAQ
Paladin, divine bond: Can I expend two daily uses of this ability to enhance two of my weapons or both sides of a double weapon?
Yes.
To me, that means its not even stuck to the exact weapon. I can infuse my Greatsword one combat, and if I have another use, I can infuse my longsword next combat if I find myself needing a shield...
Also: The first type of bond allows the antipaladin to enhance his weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a fiendish spirit(celestial spirit for Paladins) for 1 minute per antipaladin level.
Nowhere does it say one weapon specific, or its a one time choice, or anything along those lines... The Antipaladin himself, has a bond with a fiendish spirit, when he calls upon it, the spirit infuses his weapon.
The abilities are the exact same, just different type of spirit, and same penalty if the weapon is destroyed while infused. How I read it, and if someone else wnats to chime in, is as I stated. I myself have the bond. I call upon the spirit. The spirit infuses my weapon, granting bonuses. If said weapon is destroyed WHILE infused, I cannot call upon the spirit again, for 30 days, or until I level up. Whochever comes first.
Samasboy1 |
I seen the Glazebo, but can you actually use the wish spell?
Nope, no Wish. As the ability is per Summon Monster, they can't use summoning, teleportation, or costly abilities.
I assume the monster has typical gear for a monster of its type?
They get the standard equipment for a monster of their type, as shown in the Bestiary entry, but summoned monsters don't get treasure.
Treasure is based on CR, and summoned monsters don't increase CR. They are considered part of the challenge of the creature that summoned them. No additional CR means no additional treasure either.
McDaygo |
x_Gabriel_x wrote:I seen the Glazebo, but can you actually use the wish spell?Nope, no Wish. As the ability is per Summon Monster, they can't use summoning, teleportation, or costly abilities.
Lemartes wrote:I assume the monster has typical gear for a monster of its type?They get the standard equipment for a monster of their type, as shown in the Bestiary entry, but summoned monsters don't get treasure.
Treasure is based on CR, and summoned monsters don't increase CR. They are considered part of the challenge of the creature that summoned them. No additional CR means no additional treasure either.
A creative GM allows the wish if they know know the Glazebo works. They naturally currupt wishes and that is an amazing storyhook instant quest.
Samasboy1 |
A creative GM allows the wish if they know know the Glazebo works. They naturally currupt wishes and that is an amazing storyhook instant quest.
It isn't about being "creative," its about the rules saying," Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)."
It can't get any more explicit than the exact example they provide.
If you want to play things different in your home game, great, but when people ask rules question it should be answered with rules.