Building Shieldy McShieldface


Advice

101 to 110 of 110 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

The biggest issue for Slayer is that they're limited to Study and maybe Weapon Focus for accuracy, and otherwise rely on Sneak Attack to increase damage. A Fighter stacking up feats, training, gloves and Spirit Warrior is going to make Studied Target look fairly feeble by comparison, and there are Fighter Archetypes that add other significant combat benefits as well.

Slayer still does quite well when you factor in Sneak Attack, but it means they work best with a set-up designed to exploit that, rather than just as a Fighter replacement. Without a build designed for reliable Sneak Attack or at least a very reliable flanking ally, I'd much rather have a Guide Ranger or a high-level Ranger with Instant Enemy than a Slayer. Though to be fair, a high-level Guide/Skirmisher Ranger is one of the most awesome things ever.

Speaking of taking advantage of Sneak Attack on a (mostly) Slayer though -

Snakebite Striker Brawler 3/ Slayer 10

1SB. Combat Expertise / Human: +Iron Will / *+1d6 Sneak
2SB. *Brawler's Flurry (+Two-Weapon Fighting)* / Brawler: +Improved Feint
3SB. *Snake Feint* / Combat Reflexes
4SL.
5SL. Accomplished Sneak Attacker *+2d6 Sneak / *Talent: Style: +Two-Weapon Feint
6SL. *+3d6 Sneak
7SL. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8SL.
9SL. Improved Critical: 9-Ring Broadsword / *Talent: Style: +Greater Feint / *+4d6 Sneak
10SL.
11SL. Weapon Trick: Feint and Bash / *Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Shield Bash
12SL. *+5d6 Sneak
13SL. Disengaging Feint / *Talent: Style: +Disengaging Shot

You can use Brawler's Flurry with a 9-Ring for normal TWF attacks, while every feint produces a shield bash. So when you drop the first TWF attack to feint, it grants a bash; when you move up and feint, it grants a bash; and if you use Disengaging Shot, you bash before striking and moving. None of the shield bashes take TWF or offhand penalties since your shield isn't involved in the TWF - it just floats there waiting to bash with full BAB.

You can also place Fortuitous on one or both weapons for even more AoO attacks from feinting as well. With just a Fortuitous sword, you can use Snake Feint to move up + feint -> AoO bash -> Fortuitious AoO sword -5, then use Disengaging Shot to feint -> AoO bash -> sword, then move away from the target again. On a full attack, you make all normal sword attacks except the first, which is instead a bash, which triggers a Fortuitous sword -5. All attacks trigger Sneak Attack.


Waaaait. You can take Shield Slam with two levels in Ranger? And you don't need TWF?

*A Whole New World begins playing*

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Inlaa wrote:

Waaaait. You can take Shield Slam with two levels in Ranger? And you don't need TWF?

*A Whole New World begins playing*

Ranger or slayer, an dyes that's what this whole thread is about.

Level 1: Weapon Focus (heavy shield), Power Attack
Level 2: Ranger Combat Style (sword and board) > Imp Shield Bash
Level 3: Intimidating Prowess
Level 4: Weapon Training (heavy shield), retrain Weapon Focus into Shield Focus
Level 5: Iron Will
Level 6: Ranger Combat Style > Shield Master
Level 7: Cornugon Smash
Level 8: Combat Trick > Killing Flourish
Level 9: Persuasive
Level 10: Ranger Combat Style > Greater Shield Focus
Level 11: Gruesome Slaughter
Level 12: Evasion


Why isn't shield slam in there as the second level bonus ranger feat?


BadBird wrote:
Slayer is that they're limited to Study and maybe Weapon Focus for accuracy, and otherwise rely on Sneak Attack to increase damage.

BadBird: You do know that Studied Target improves not just to hit but to damage, right? I mean they add to his skill checks as well but the biggest point is that it scales with level the same way that Weapon Training does. The only difference in combat is that Slayer gets it earlier. It isn't until 13th level into each class that Fighter pulls ahead and then Slayer has the same bonuses again at 15th level until Fighter hits 17th and then it is permanently 1 point ahead.

So maybe I'm confused about your point here on Studied Target vs Weapon Training. Are you saying Weapon Training is better from 13th-15th and then 17th level and beyond. Because I'll grant you that. But in the grand scheme, no. Studied Target wins out.

And sure, there are Gloves of Dueling. I'll admit if you grant the Fighter a specific class based item and disclude Slayer having the same benefit that they pull ahead. But why handicap the Slayer to prove your point? They have Lenses of the Predator’s Gaze.

Slayers can also get Weapon Focus as a Talent, Dazzling Display as a Combat Trick and pick up Shatter Defenses. Add in either Enforcer + Bludgeoner or Power Attack + Cornugon Smash and you are making your opponent flat footed against all of your attacks each turn. That is the equivalent of +Y (Y=your opponent's Dex) to hit and +Xd6 to damage for each attack. I favor the Power Attack route as it gives even more damage. This is all something that the Fighter doesn't have in his repertoire. I would also suggest this for this build as it offers a (double) scaling bonus to damage on each attack. By 11th level you can be getting the equivalent of +Y (Y=your opponent's Dex) to hit, -3 from Power Attack, +3 from Studied Target and (+3 Studied Target, +6 Power Attack) +9, and +3d6 to damage. With every attack. If you have at least Improved Two Weapon Fighting by that level you are getting 5 attacks so that is +45 and +15d6 (average of +52) to damage. That is on average +97 damage. And your opponent is getting -2 to hit (shaken) keeping you safer against them.

That is all without adding your Str or Enhancement bonuses (which should be significant by then) to damage. It is also without any other magic items. The Fighter has nothing in their repertoire to keep them on par with that kind of damage.

It is also considering pure Slayer which I wouldn't recommend. I would grab 3 levels of Weapon Master Fighter. That way you get to have your cake (Weapon Training) and eat it too (Gloves of Dueling). Again, I don't think this is all about Slayer > Fighter (though I do believe that) but more about using all the right tools for the job.

And yes, the build I put forth is a build that takes advantage of Sneak Attack. But to not do so is handicapping your build. It would be like making a Fighter build that isn't setup to take advantage of hitting your opponent with weapons. But if we want to devolve this down to simply Slayer vs. Fighter I can tell you now that Slayer will win by out damaging the Fighter AND be better outside of combat.


Also, you may face some resistance with adding weapon enhancements (like Fortuitous) to a shield. As a GM I wouldn't have an issue with it but that doesn't make it strictly legal.


Why would you put fortuitous on your shield and not your armor especially as you really only need the +5 on your shield.


Lune wrote:
So maybe I'm confused about your point here on Studied Target vs Weapon Training. Are you saying Weapon Training is better from 13th-15th and then 17th level and beyond. Because I'll grant you that. But in the grand scheme, no. Studied Target wins out.

The point wasn't that study is bad, or really worse than training; the point is that Fighter has more class feature options for straight combat than just training. If we just assume that training and study are equal, the Fighter still has the ability to pick up GWF and other feats, features like Warrior Spirit (probably for on-demand Bane), and potentially Archetype options that greatly increase combat ability.

As far as Sneak Attack goes, that's exactly what I was saying; the Slayer is at it's best on a build that's working to use Sneak Attack, rather than just as a replacement Fighter for whatever purpose. If I want a character who uses a Sneak Attack based style of combat, Slayer is awesome. However, if I want a master of combat maneuvers, or an uber-heavy tank, or a style-chain master, or all sorts of other things, then I'm much more likely to go Fighter. This is why I said 'better' is abstract; it's a question of 'better at what?'.

Shaken/Shatter can be pretty good, but the fact that it only works from the third attack on is a major issue. Sneak Attack is like that in general; it's very strong, but overcoming it's restrictions takes resources and effort, and sometimes it just doesn't work. Sneak Attack is also at it's best on two-weapon builds for obvious reasons, but then two-weapon builds have their own issues.

Edit: as far as Fortuitous on a shield goes, it works just fine if the shield is enchanted as a weapon as it would need to be on that build I posted. I didn't use Shield Master there, since there's no TWF penalty to lose and high-level feats are precious things.

Silver Crusade

Woodoodoo wrote:
Why isn't shield slam in there as the second level bonus ranger feat?

I went a different route with that build, choosing to focus on two-handing a single shield. You could easily slot in Imp Shield Bash at 1 in place of Weapon Focus, and Shield Slam at 2.

Community & Digital Content Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Removed a series of posts and locking. Folks, the Advice subforum isn't a platform for continuing drama from other areas, or for furthering arguments between folks you disagree with.

101 to 110 of 110 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Building Shieldy McShieldface All Messageboards