multiclass dip advice for gnome wizard


Advice


I'm currently playing in a Rise of the Rune Lords campaign. The dm has restricted us to the core book only as I'm the only veteran player. I want to play a support/control wizard going to use illusion a lot if I can. So far we are level 2 and I have the following.
Gnome Wizard 1(Divination), bard 1(going to 2)
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 19
Int 18
Wis 14
Cha 19
Restricted schools are Evocation and Abjuration.

Feats
Improved initiative

I am needing help figuring out which Divination spells are gonna be worth grabbing. Also I was thinking it might be worth grabbing paladin 2 for the +4 to saves.
I am also wondering if I should do my dipping immediately or wait until later levels.
Our group so far is:
Paladin half elf self sufficient tank
Mid ranged skill rogue
Blaster sorcerer
Bow elf ranger

If you need anymore info let me know.


The bard 2 dip is terrible if you want to be generally powerful or if you intend to use illusions or perform battlefield control. Truly terrible. If you are going to do it regardless then you might want to consider the wizard 1 as the dip and not develop it further.

With those stats it's possible to make some sort of magical warrior out of a wizard/paladin/eldritch knight or even wizard/bard/paladin/dragon disciple. Neither would have much to do with your stated intent though.

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Maybe just stick to bard 2/wizard X? Unless you plan on going into Eldritch Knight or Pathfinder Chronicler or something?

Personally, I wouldn't consider a bard 2/paladin 2/wizard 1 a "wizard;" I would consider that a super-face, and would probably assume all the wizard slots are filled with truestrike so you could cast in armor.

I've only played RotRL in a 5th Edition conversion, but we had a divination wizard that focused on blasting, and he was very succesful.

But to get back on track, I would suggest getting a lot of the useful "spy" spells, like see invisibility, clairvoyance, arcane eye, etc.

I played a buffing/support/healbot cleric, and had a blast. Everyone else did triple (or more!) the direct damage I did each round, but often that was because I was giving them a +1d4 on their attacks and saves most of the time. :-)

With only 1 tank and 3 ranged PCs, you will want to use a lot of battlefield control to protect the squishies (you included!).

EDIT:

Got ninja-ed by AVR, but maybe dipping in wizard and going bard the rest of the way is the best option. Bards do support and buffing, have some healing (which you will need!), and have some illusions too. It sounds like your party has enough direct damage stuff (tank, blaster, 2 archers), so you can do the tricksy stuff. You can even be a back up archer, or use whip proficiency for "ranged" disarms and trips. Coordinate with the ranger and rogue on skills and Knowledge checks.

You have a relatively large party, so bard buffs will be efficient, and also helpful either bringing the eventual animal companion up to snuff OR synergizing with the other form of Hunter's Bond.


Holy crap, those stats are amazing.

My suggestion is to not dip Bard at all and stay pure Wizard, losing Caster Levels and Spell Level progression is just not worth it, especially for Bard abilities that require levels to maintain their power over the course of the campaign and interfere with your ability to cast spells.

Or, since you already have a full Arcane Spellcaster (who is a blaster, and will probably get wrecked in the higher levels because resistances/immunities are a b!^@# and you have no means to circumvent them in a Core only game), ask the GM to retrain your Wizard level into a Bard level, and go pure Bard. With those stats, you'd pick up a Longspear, Combat Reflexes at 3rd level, and be a walking combat support monkey.

Your allies will appreciate your buffing abilities, and you get access to exclusive spells as a Bard that Wizards/Sorcerers can't get. (If you were a full Bard, then I would agree that a 2 level Paladin dip would be a good idea, for the extra healing and defenses; I'd even suggest archetypes, but again, Core Only doesn't allow that.)

But, the point is that a Wizard benefits best from being single-classed, especially in a Core-only game.


Yup, 2 levels of bard means that you're giving up your highest level spells for those abilities, which is an increasingly bad deal as you go up in level.


especially because many illusion spells have HD caps, you need to have max caster levels, or the monsters you fight will have too many hd


Going pure bard would probably be a better idea than dipping into another class. If you are going for the old school illusionist consider that a bard gets most illusion and enchantments spells anyways.

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You just might have to invest in Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus illusion to keep your saving throw DCs up to snuff.

Especially if you want to focus on support, sticking to bard might be the way to go.


Dude with those stats you can do what you like (what is that - a 60 point buy?)

TL/DR - Paladin dip seems fine with those stats but I'd say choose either Wizard OR Bard for your main class.

I love dipping, but I feel like I have to agree with the group here: Wizard/Bard/Paladin has almost no synergy. If your plan is to be a wizard I wouldn't dip more than 2 levels outside your base class. If you go Bard2/Paladin2/WizardX you won't get level 2 spells until level 7 (that's the same level a straight Paladin gets level 2 spells).

The common consensus on the boards is that you should never multiclass a Wizard. I disagree with this. A 1 level dip will put you on par with a full-Sorcerer, and since you're playing "the most powerful class in the game" that slight loss of power shouldn't really bother you. With 19 Charisma a 2 level dip in Paladin means you'll never fail a save ever (Wizard1/Paladin2 with your stats has +11Fort-, +7Reflex-, +11Will- -saves), so if you want to do it you probably won't regret it. I would probably not take more than a 2 level dip outside your main class though as this puts you more than a whole spell-level behind.

I'm curious why the bard dip? If it's just because it fits the illusion/etc theme you're going for maybe consider being a bard instead of a wizard? The 2 classes don't really mesh and seem like they're just nerfing each other (lowering your save-DC's, hampering your spell-progression etc).


Thank you all for the advice :). I was doing the bard 2 did for barricade knowledge,versatile performance(as my wisdom is so so for my stats),skills points and the bardic inspire courage. I was originally going to go with foresight sub-school for the aoe buff. I was thinking of the Pathfinder Chronicler or Lore Master prestige classes. I do plan on picking up improved familiar later to help with using wands etc.

I am thinking I may ask for a retrain of paladin in the bard level. I mainly just want to help the other players with this character as they have only played in the beginner box before this.

Sorry this post isnt as thought out as Id like. Short break during session and on mobile.


@ MrCharisma: Taking the attributes and factoring racials out of the equation, that is exactly a 60 point buy. Good lord, if I was given 60 point buy to work with, I'd have a heart attack...

@ shademu: If your goal is to help other players (as a player-character, anyway), a Bard focus would accomplish this better with his buffs and supplementary spells compared to a Wizard focus. Since you already have a Full Arcane Spellcaster, playing a Wizard who can do so much more (and better, I might add,) would make that player (and several other newcomers) feel overshadowed with your incredible skills and system mastery.

With Bard, you have an outrageous amount of Skill Points (meaning any and all Knowledges, Face skills, and so on, are covered), you have Bardic Performance that can accomplish a number of things that can be taxing for a Wizard's spell slots, and you have access to exclusive spells, and some powerful spells (like Heroism) are available to you earlier than it would be for a Wizard or Sorcerer.

Also, if you want to help your players outside of your PC's development, giving them tips and advice as to how to plan out their character (as well as researching things on their own; the D20PFSRD site and the Advice forums are great places to start, and) would help, as well as regularly "quizzing" them by asking them what X does, or how Y scales. I have a player who would almost always forget what the scale for Power Attack is, so every session, I would (now jokingly) say "Power Attack, go!" at that player, and he would cite back to me his current scaling for Power Attack.

Couple other things: Wizard Subschools are APG and above, just like Archetypes; no such thing exists in Core Rulebook. Like Retraining, you could ask the GM to allow it, but Retraining is more of a "game quality" thing, whereas the Wizard Subschools aren't.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
@ MrCharisma: Taking the attributes and factoring racials out of the equation, that is exactly a 60 point buy. Good lord, if I was given 60 point buy to work with, I'd have a heart attack...

I know right! Actually I'd probably just take 16's across the board and choose a race that gives me an 18 in my primary stat. It's hard to imagine a character you can't make with that kind of budget.

shademu wrote:
I am thinking I may ask for a retrain of paladin in the bard level. I mainly just want to help the other players with this character as they have only played in the beginner box before this.

Actually From what you've said I'd say you'll probably be happy with a straight Bard. Bards are really the best support class. They also get a real focus on Illusions (although not divination). You'll get a good reflex save & will save progression, and your stats are way more than enough to compensate for the low fort-save.

JUST A THOUGHT: How DID you build your character with those stats? Did you roll dice? Use a point buy? Were you given a Stat array?


Most likely a roll of the dice.

A very generous roll of the dice...


Have you rolled 3x d12 for those stats??

There's no any kind of advantage to multiclass a wizard if you don't want to take a prestige class (such arcane trickster).
Wizard can do only 1 thing... SPELLS!
And they are the best class to do this... if you loose some caster level you loose your strenght!

Btw with those stats you can do a decent Mystic Theurge wit Oracle levels.
And your party don't have a healer... so think about that....


Forcy wrote:

Have you rolled 3x d12 for those stats??

There's no any kind of advantage to multiclass a wizard if you don't want to take a prestige class (such arcane trickster).
Wizard can do only 1 thing... SPELLS!
And they are the best class to do this... if you loose some caster level you loose your strenght!

Btw with those stats you can do a decent Mystic Theurge wit Oracle levels.
And your party don't have a healer... so think about that....

Core only, so no Oracle via Mystic Theurge.

If anything, this is perhaps the only time he can do Mystic Theurge and not absolutely suck at it.


We rolled 4d6 dropping lowest and rolled seven times dropping the lowest. This is our normal method in my area. I've been trying to get people to understand point buy is much more balanced for everyone. Normally I end up with 2 17s and maybe a 10 as the low end.

I was able to retrain my bard level to paladin. After paladin 2 I believe Wizard the rest. Going to sit down and look at prestige classes and see what might be a good option, if any. One fun thing on this character is my wife is playing my familiar (currently a raven) as we didn't have any more room for player characters.

I had thought of mystic theurge and general lack of healing we have. I did suggest the paladin, who want to be meat shield, pick up some fighter levels. The air sorcerer I believe is going straiggt sorc, same for the rogue and ranger. Im making sure to keep UMD skilled up and going to get a wand of cure light asap.

Everone seems to be having a great time so far and that makes me very happy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To OP. Core only? And RotR?

Straight wizard all the way. Believe me you WILL miss it if you dip into another class. It will have a high probability of messing you up and probably result in "gosh is we only have arcane x, we wouldn't have been stuck/blocked/tpk'd." Or "gosh if I only had those 2 caster levels, my encounter ending spell would not have fizzled." Or "dang if I only had that extra spell slots..." Or "wow a scroll of a spell...that I have to wait 2 levels to use...or hand off the rogue to UMD it...once."

If someone really needs a party face have a cha-based character pick up a few skills...or wait for Leadership and get a bard buddy that way.

I see a rogue in the party...if he has a halfway decent CHA he can afford the skill points more than you (unless he's dumping int into the gutter). Plus most of the social skills are class for him anyway.

Saw last post...if going pally stay pally 1-20. Or wiz 1-20. Don't try a fusion. It is something to avoid.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Remember that paladins and rangers can use wands of CLW. I know a lot of people say you shouldn't do any (or at least a lot) of in-combat healing, but my experience has been that in-combat healing is a life saver. And a fun saver, since it prevents players just sitting there while their characters bleed out.


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The only advice you need on multiclassing as a wizard is "don't".


Newbonomicon wrote:
The only advice you need on multiclassing as a wizard is "don't".

^this.

If you're a full-caster, do not multiclass.

If you really want some low level bard or paladin abilities, look into the Variant Multiclass System.


I generally agree that full casters are most effective when single classed.

Having said that, it sounds like your group is having fun at present and with such a generous array of stats you can remain effective with a small dip so don't sweat it too much (despite it being 'suboptimal').

I'd still limit the dip as much as possible, and definitely think Paladin is superior to Bard in your case and for a 2 level dip , as long as the flavour works. The boost to saves from a 2 level dip is wonderful, despite the downsides, and the extra HP and lay on hands doesn't hurt either.

If you weren't limited to core I might have other suggestions, but I expect you'll continue to have fun on the path you're on, so I'll just say "happy gaming"!


I agree with The Steel Refrain. You're going to be a sub-optimal Wizard, but you'll be a lot harder to kill. And since Wizard is usually seen as "the most powerful class" it shouldn't matter too much if you're not 100% optimised.

I'd also recommend getting BRACERS OF THE MERCIFUL KNIGHT. It'll take your Lay On Hands from 1d6-hp 5/day (5d6-hp/day) to 3d6-hp 7/day (21d6-hp/day).

EDIT: Oh yeah, core only ... check with your GM I guess?


@MrCharisma I will look into that item, it sounds really nice.

Definitly wont go beyond the 2 level dip. Our Rogue was lucky to get a + modifier in stats her best was a 14 and the rest are 10 or less, so she is kind of tight on her skills. On the plus side though after this campaign I believe DM said all sources will be useable :D but thats a ways off.

So from what everyones suggesting Id probably be better off with no prestige class and going Wizard the rest of the way.

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