Hi, first time posting here.
A couple of questions regarding tieflings.
First of all, when you decide to play a non human tieflings, let's say a half elf for the purpose of this discussion and you select the pass for human Tiefling trait, would you then count as humanoid (half-elf) and outsider (native)?0
Would a human tiefling with pass for human be able to pick from both races race traits (for example Aspiring Bard)?
What about favored class bonus?
What if the tiefling in question was a non human tiefling, say, once again, the half elf. Would he then have 2 or 4 different races to pick favored class boni and/or race traits from?
Discrimination against tieflings with horrifically fiendish features is so intense that even tieflings look up to those precious few of their kind who can pass as human. These tieflings have otherworldly features that are so subtle, they aren’t often noticed unless the tiefling points them out (for example, eyes that flash red in the throes of passion, or fingernails that are naturally hard and pointed). Such a tiefling doesn’t need to succeed at a Disguise check to appear to be human and count as humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) for all purposes (such as humanoid-affecting spells like charm person or enlarge person). The tiefling does not automatically gain his associated outsider language (but may select it as a bonus language if his Intelligence score is high enough), and he may not select other racial traits that would grant him obviously fiendish features (such as the fiendish sprinter, maw or claw, prehensile tail, scaled skin, or vestigial wings alternate racial traits). This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.
If you take the Pass for Human racial trait you can take the human Favored Class Bonus, human Feats and human Race Traits (not Racial Traits) in addition to your Tiefling options. You'll also be affected by spells such as Dominate Person which normally doesn't affect outsiders, and a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Humanoid: Human) would get his bonus against you. (and etc)
But if you say that you're a non-human Tiefling, that choice is purely flavour, and will have no impact on any mechanical choices you can make. There is no difference between a Half-Elf-Tiefling and an Orc-Tiefling from a mechanical standpoint.
In game terms, the difference between non-human tieflings and human tieflings is purely a matter of size. Unless they have specific tiefling-related size modifiers, the tieflings of each of these races are the same size as their non-fiendish ancestors. They gain any of the bonuses or penalties related to that size, but gain no racial bonuses except those of the tiefling; beyond size, their humanoid ancestry is purely cosmetic.
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Welcome to the forums! Stay away from threads about paladins, fighters, stealth or homebrew races/items and you'll be fine!
First up, playing a tiefling that looks anything other than a human (AKA any tiefling that has something other than human parentage) is up to the GM, as it was a sidebar in Blood of Fiends to allow tieflings to come from different humanoid races that may or may not come with different sizes (Such as a tiefling of gnomish parentage.)
With that in mind...
1. Up your GM. RAI would say yes.
2. Yes. You count as both outsider (native) and humanoid (human) for all purposes, good and bad.
3. I would personally say two, because being able to cherry-pick from tiefling, human, elf, and half-elf race traits, feats, and favored class bonuses seems quite powerful. No rules for it, ask your GM.
#1: By the rules you'd count as a human and not a 1/2 elf. That said, we've always houserule that you count as a 1/2 elf
#2: You count as human and tiefling and can pick either races options. For example you could pick an archetype requiring human and a trait requiring tiefling.
#3 You only count as 2 races. You wouldn't have the trait "elf blood" and you only gain one subtype (human). Even if you houserule 1/2 elf instead of human you would only gain 1/2 elf. Look at the feat Neither Elf nor Human for an example of 1/2 elf without elf or human subtypes.
What if the tiefling in question was a non human tiefling, say, once again, the half elf. Would he then have 2 or 4 different races to pick favored class boni and/or race traits from?
Half-elves and half-orcs having access to options for both races is specifically because of the racial trait that grants them those subtypes - and it is possible to not have that option. (By choosing the Orc Atavism racial trait instead, for example, among other things.)
Personally, I would say they would only have the two races to count as. It just makes more sense in terms of both mechanics and flavor imo, since presumably at that point the human/elf heritage is less significant.
Welcome to the forums! Stay away from threads about paladins, fighters, stealth or homebrew races/items and you'll be fine!
I suppose there I would find some points of contention? I'll keep it in mind.
Now what if you pick Tiefling, Pass for Human and then Racial Heritage Elf. Given that the character is now a tiefling, a human and an elf...and a half elf is a human with elven heritage (or vice versa)...would he then be able to choose from 4 race traits/FC boni?
Or is a half elf a different thing entirely?
What if he picked half elf as racial heritage? Would that give access to elf race traits/FC boni?
Thanks to all for the quick responses, very educative, particularly that elves having access to both spheres is due to a racial trait.
PS:
Sorry for the Name changing, I mistyped earlier, and figured with a regular name first it would work almost as a pun.
Trish Megistos: Having human and elf subtypes doesn't make you a half elf. For instance, a human taking orc sorcerer's bloodline doesn't transform into a 1/2 orc.
Picking 1/2 elf heritage JUST gives 1/2 elf access. 1/2 races taken with heritage don't get a subtypes as the feat only gives the race taken and 1/2's get their parent races instead of their unique race as 1/2's don't have their own subtype.
On 1/2 elves, the trait is really just telling you what the race already gets. From the race guide: "If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites." 1/2 elves have (elf, human) even if they didn't have the elf blood trait so it's redundant now. [at the time the core was made they didn't have the subtype ruling printed]
how can u be half elf half human and half tiefling? I could see half orc and half tiefling etc but saying you can be 3 different halves is a bit silly and mathematically impossible.
A 1/2 elf can take the racial heritage feat [1/2 orc] and be a sorcerer with the orc bloodline. This would make them count as 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, human, orc and elf. it doesn't have to make 'math' sense as the 1/2 races don't have to half one and half the other. you can be 1/8th orc and count as a 1/2 orc. Check out the Bastards of Golarion book for more interesting options for races with multiple subtypes.
Trish Megistos: Having human and elf subtypes doesn't make you a half elf. For instance, a human taking orc sorcerer's bloodline doesn't transform into a 1/2 orc.
Picking 1/2 elf heritage JUST gives 1/2 elf access. 1/2 races taken with heritage don't get a subtypes as the feat only gives the race taken and 1/2's get their parent races instead of their unique race as 1/2's don't have their own subtype.
On 1/2 elves, the trait is really just telling you what the race already gets. From the race guide: "If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites." 1/2 elves have (elf, human) even if they didn't have the elf blood trait so it's redundant now. [at the time the core was made they didn't have the subtype ruling printed]
Okay, I see. Had to read it a couple of time though.
Let's say a tiefling (pass for human) mated with an elf. It could become a tiefling (pass for half elf).
Which if allowed (by the DM), would then qualify for all 4 subtype based traits and and favored class boni.
Could such an Outsider (Native), Humanoid (Elf, Human) also qualify for the Elven Branched Spear to wield it as a Martial Weapon (rather than exotic)?
Trish Megistos: The base trait, pass for human, only allows for 1 race. I could see the combo you suggest being one of these:
#1 humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) [human]
#2 humanoid (elf) as well as outsider (native) [elf]
#3 humanoid as well as outsider (native) [1/2 elf]
In no case would you gain multiple races for prerequisites other than ONE race plus outsider. [of course other things could add options past race] For a "Outsider (Native) Humanoid (Elf, Human) you'd need Pass for Human AND the Racial Heritage [human feat].
To answer the Elven Branched Spear question, the item states "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons". This means that any creature with the elf subtype can use it as a martial. With the combo's above, only #2 could use it as a martial. #3, the 1/2 elf, lacks the elf subtype as it only has the 1/2 elf race.
Remember, the BASE race gives you elf and human subtypes, not the '1/2 elf' racial type. Not every race comes with it's own subtype. For instance, drow doesn't come with a drow subtype. So if you start with the 1/2 elf race, it has human and elf subtypes but if something allows you to count as a 1/2 elf it ONLY allows you to act as a 1/2 elf and NOT a human and elf also as those are different races.
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1. Up your GM. RAI would say yes.
{. . .}
That sounds really uncomfortable for your GM . . . .
Okay, I see. Had to read it a couple of time though.
Let's say a tiefling (pass for human) mated with an elf. It could become a tiefling (pass for half elf).
Which if allowed (by the DM), would then qualify for all 4 subtype based traits and and favored class boni.
Could such an Outsider (Native), Humanoid (Elf, Human) also qualify for the Elven Branched Spear to wield it as a Martial Weapon (rather than exotic)?
It would only if the Elf Subtype qualified for treating the Elven Branched Spear as a martial weapon instead of exotic. It doesn't. Elven Weapon Familiarity is a racial trait that Elves can trade out (including trade out for a different Weapon Familiarity) and Half-Elves don't have out of the box, but can trade out Adaptability to get. Racial Heritage qualifies you for feats, archetypes, and classes that match the Racial Heritage you chose, but it doesn't give you any racial traits; the only way it would qualify you to get another race's racial traits is if the race whose heritage you took also had a racial feat that let it get back the racial trait if it traded that racial trait out for something else (if I remember correctly, at least one example exists, but I can't think of it off the top of my head).
Trish Megistos: The base trait, pass for human, only allows for 1 race. I could see the combo you suggest being one of these:
#1 humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) [human]
#2 humanoid (elf) as well as outsider (native) [elf]
#3 humanoid as well as outsider (native) [1/2 elf]In no case would you gain multiple races for prerequisites other than ONE race plus outsider. [of course other things could add options past race] For a "Outsider (Native) Humanoid (Elf, Human) you'd need Pass for Human AND the Racial Heritage [human feat].
I think that is the fallback of what Trish Magistos wanted, given that the Planetouched races don't have an option for Pass for {anything other than Human}. (The exception is Oread, which has Dwarf-Blooded, which, unlike Racial Heritage, actually gives you Dwarven characteristics, but on the other hand doesn't qualify you for anything that doesn't specify those particular characteristics.)
To answer the Elven Branched Spear question, the item states "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons". This means that any creature with the elf subtype can use it as a martial. With the combo's above, only #2 could use it as a martial. #3, the 1/2 elf, lacks the elf subtype as it only has the 1/2 elf race.
Remember, the BASE race gives you elf and human subtypes, not the '1/2 elf' racial type. Not every race comes with it's own subtype. For instance, drow doesn't come with a drow subtype. So if you start with the 1/2 elf race, it has human and elf subtypes but if something allows you to count as a 1/2 elf it ONLY allows you to act as a 1/2 elf and NOT a human and elf also as those are different races.
While one might read the Elven Branched Spear text as referring to the Subtype, the Elf Subtype doesn't actually give you anything except Low-Light Vision -- and even this is actually an obsolete bit of Core Rulebook text that really should be Errata'd out, because Low-Light Vision is an Elf racial trait that you can trade out without losing the Elf Subtype, which is now really just bait for Favored Enemy and for prerequisites for feats, race traits (not to be confused with racial traits), prestige classes, and a few other things. (The same is true of other Humanoid subtypes at least for the most part -- I won't swear that I'm not forgetting one that actually does something on its own that hasn't been obsoleted by updates to the entry for the race itself.)
how can u be half elf half human and half tiefling? I could see half orc and half tiefling etc but saying you can be 3 different halves is a bit silly and mathematically impossible.A 1/2 elf can take the racial heritage feat [1/2 orc] and be a sorcerer with the orc bloodline. This would make them count as 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, human, orc and elf. it doesn't have to make 'math' sense as the 1/2 races don't have to half one and half the other. you can be 1/8th orc and count as a 1/2 orc. Check out the Bastards of Golarion book for more interesting options for races with multiple subtypes.racial heritage replaces your types it doesn't add more so no a 1/2 elf cannot become 3 types.
for example if a half-elf takes racial heritage and picks dwarf u now count as human and dwarf and no longer have the elf subtype
Racial Heritage adds to your subtypes -- it doesn't replace any that you already have. So you if Bearfolk and Pigfolk races were available, as a Human you could take Racial Heritage (Bearfolk) and Racial Heritage (Pigfolk), and be a ManBearPig.
While one might read the Elven Branched Spear text as referring to the Subtype, the Elf Subtype doesn't actually give you anything except Low-Light Vision -- and even this is actually an obsolete bit of Core Rulebook text that really should be Errata'd out, because Low-Light Vision is an Elf racial trait that you can trade out without losing the Elf Subtype, which is now really just bait for Favored Enemy and for prerequisites for feats, race traits (not to be confused with racial traits), prestige classes, and a few other things. (The same is true of other Humanoid subtypes at least for the most part -- I won't swear that I'm not forgetting one that actually does something on its own that hasn't been obsoleted by updates to the entry for the race itself.)
Melee Tactics Toolbox: "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
Advanced Race Guide: "If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites." Seems clear cut that any 'elf' can use it as a martial and the subtype makes you an 'elf'.
Now it would be different if the line form the spear wasn't there and someone was trying to use the elf/1/2 elf Weapon Familiarity as the subtype doesn't give that. With the line though, even elves that have traded away their Weapon Familiarity can still use the spear as a martial. The spear says "elf" and not "any elf with Weapon Familiarity".
Also, while you are right that subtypes aren't replaced, you can't take Racial Heritage more than once. SO no ManBearPig! ;)
^Looks like Melee Tactics Toolbox needs an Errata -- whoever wrote that apparently forgot that the text of Elven Weapon Familiarity already has Elven Branched Spear covered.
I forgot about not being able to take feats more than once unless the feat description says you can. (I also forgot where the rule for this is, and a brief search didn't turn it up.) So we have to go back to what somebody posted about taking Racial Heritage (Wereboar Skinwalker) and selecting Ursine Wildsoul Vigilante as your class . . . .
If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites.
This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.
Since there is no specific subtype for elf he would get both of them. And therefore qualify for all the (4) racial prerequisites.
Am I missing something?
^Looks like Melee Tactics Toolbox needs an Errata -- whoever wrote that apparently forgot that the text of Elven Weapon Familiarity already has Elven Branched Spear covered.
LOL That may be but who knows? I've stopped trying to figure out what the writers where thinking. Since it's in a non-hard back book, it's unlikely to be fixed quickly if at all. I don't find it a big 'loophole' as the class that gets the biggest boost from the weapon, the unchained rogue, still needs a feat to use it.
Now I WOULD say that anyone trying to use the spear without the familiarity should clear it with the DM first. Even though it's RAW you don't need it, there are enough DM's that will go with what can be seen as the RAI [it's reminder text only] that it's best to get it settled before hand. Always have a backup plan if you use something even remotely questionable. ;)
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Let's say a tiefling (pass for human) mated with an elf. It could become a tiefling (pass for half elf).
Which if allowed (by the DM), would then qualify for all 4 subtype based traits and and favored class boni.
Nah, only Tiefling and Half-Elf.
If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites.This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.Since there is no specific subtype for elf he would get both of them. And therefore qualify for all the (4) racial prerequisites.
Am I missing something?
The catch is that you having the Humanoid: Half-Elf type/subtype wouldn't mean that you're also considered Human and Elf.
The ability to count as Humanoid:Human and Humanoid:Elf is a racial trait, which you gain if you play as the half-elf race.
In the same way that taking Racial Heritage: Dwarf wouldn't give you darkvision, you won't get the racial traits of the Half-Elf just because you gain that type/subtype.
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TL;DR
You won't get the Racial Traits of Half-Elf even if you take "Pass for Half-Elf", just like you don't get Skilled/Bonus Feat from taking Pass for Human.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
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If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites.This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.Since there is no specific subtype for elf he would get both of them. And therefore qualify for all the (4) racial prerequisites.
Am I missing something?
Yes.
Pass for Half-Elf only exists as a home-brewed trait allowed by your GM.
It is not reasonable to expect a GM to take a trait that lets you count as one additional race (Pass for Human) and home-brew a version that lets you count as three additional races.
For balance reasons, I would expect that a half-elven tiefling appears as a half-elf, but must choose to take racial options associated with only one of humans, elves, and half-elves depending on what part of their heritage is more strongly expressed.
If you pick half-elf racial options then either you shouldn't have the subtype (but you do count more generally as humanoid eg for Charm Person and Enlarge Person) or else you do have both subtypes but don't count as human or elf for racial prerequisites - since we're already homebrewing, breaking the ARG rule is better than allowing an unbalanced trait.
I really wish Planetouched, Changeling, etc. had been made into race templates instead of races, so that instead of picking them and having to go through hoops to be anything other than Human-derived, you pick the parent race and then apply the template (which you might do by taking a feat that pays for the advantages you get; reflecting the greater abundance of Human-derived versions of these, it would be easier to do off a Human since you have a bonus feat to spend, but it would still be possible on other heritages).
@Weirdo
Yes of course, this all operates under the condition that the GM allows it, but given that condition it is reasonable.
@UnArcaneElection
Good point, I think it would be pretty difficult though since it would have to be done for each race individually. Alternatively it could be incorporated for via the Custom Race creator, generating some extra points and there's a couple of things you are allowed to trade back and pick and choose from a set of abilities.
For a template, you just have to use the method they use in Bastards of Golarion for characters with multiple subtypes. You total up the points the template uses and replace that amount of points in the starting race. Done. You also see something like it in the Heroes of the Wild with Fey thoughts/Fey magic where multiple races can swap in the same abilities/traits.
In my campaigns, for this question, the the "Pass for Human" trait becomes "Pass For X" where X is the race that the tiefling resembles, and the Human based mechanics of the trait become "X" based mechanics.
For PFS purposes I let the feat run as written save that I advise players that if their tiefling isn't human based, they're not passing for human at all when it comes to appearance related issues.
@graystone
I might give it a try at some point.
@Drahliana
This statement confuses me. They are generally assumed to be human (by NPC) even though they do not look like human?
Our group runs Aasimar and Tieflings as both humanoid and outsider, yeilding a +2 to several saves. No real problems.
You can already do alot with Pass for Human, and Racial Heritage.
Want to play a Tiefling Half-Elf? Pass for Human and Racial Heritage (Elf). You count as Human and Elf (and Tiefling). There are some half-Elf options you can't access by RAW, but a reasonable houserule would let you use them. Or the DM can decide those options reflect the specific combination of human and elf, and your fiendish blood ruins that balance.
Tiefling Changeling? Pass for Human and Racial Heritage (Changeling).
Tiefling Half-Orc? Pass for Human and Racial Heritage (Orc). Similar situation with Half-Elf, you don't technically qualify for Half-Orc only stuff, but it is a reasonable house rule since you do count as Human/Orc(/Tiefling).
Allowing a Pass for X (where X is a non-human humanoid race) is also a very reasonable houserule. I would avoid allowing a half-race, and suggest using the method above, as the extra cost helps balance the additional options of counting as more races.
@graystone
I might give it a try at some point.@Drahliana
This statement confuses me. They are generally assumed to be human (by NPC) even though they do not look like human?
Pathfinder through a wobbly monkey wrench into assaimar and tieflings. In D+D they were strictly human-derived, and things were okay because Pass for Human makes sense if the body structure is almost entirely human. Now Paizo opened the door to any race which leads to rather strange language with the Pass for Human feat. I have a strong suspicion that the authors of the feat did not take into account all of the changes Paizo made to these two races from D+D.
I have rather strong issues with Pass for Human applied to the qlippoth-derived tieflings.
Now Paizo opened the door to any race
Not "any race," any humanoid. There is a difference. And every racial write up for tieflings still presents them as, by default, of human heritage.
Tieflings are humans with demonic, devilish, or other evil outsider blood in their ancestry.
Simultaneously more and less than mortal, tieflings are the offspring of humans and fiends.
Tieflings appear sporadically in every human culture on Golarion.
While half-fiends are the direct result of a human-fiend union, and thus frequently expected, tiefling traits can lie dormant in the blood for generations
So it makes sense that the Pass for Human trait is written from this default perspective.
Even when discussing non-human tieflings, there is language that emphasizes the normal assumption of human heritage.
Strangely, while other humanoid races are just as likely to invite fiendish influence, something about human physiology seems to make humans particularly susceptible, and while half-fiends are equally common among other races, true tieflings are less so.
The Non-Human Tieflings sidebar does provide a basis for tieflings of other racial heritages, but I hardly see how writing racial options for the normal assumption of the race is throwing a "monkey wrench" into things.
That's what DM's are for. To provide reasonable rulings to fit material to their own game. Changing the Pass for Human trait to Pass for Elf/Dwarf/Drow/Tengu etc is pretty low hanging fruit.
And I don't see why a human-looking Qlippoth-spawn tiefling is so unbelievable. All tielflings have a unique appearance with greater or lesser features of their fiendish heritage. Yes, Qlippoth are monstrous, but so are Glabrezu.
Thank you all for your contributions.