(short of somehow getting outslug style to work with polearms)In general, Outslug Style works fine with a polearm... you just choose a different weapon for Outslug Style, but then wield a polearm.
The Tri-Point Double-Edged Sword is a typical martial reach polearm that's part of the Monk weapon group, so a Human(ish) Fighter could specialize in the Monk weapons group and take Martial Versatility: Outslug Style to officially use Outslug Style with the T-PD-ES.
Unfortunately, it is the close weapon group not the monk weapon group that works with Outslug Style.
However, I would like to note that Bird is correct, you can benefit from outslug style while wielding a polearm. You just select unarmed strikes or spiked gauntlet and whenever you stake a 5/10ft step you gain all of the bonuses as normal, and can still attack with a spear. The only penalty is that you do not get +2 to damage with your spear, but will still get it on any unarmed strikes you'd take before the begining of your next turn. Like kicking people in the face as a monk on AoOs.
That should probably be fixed IMO. But for the record it gives you 25ft of range on your attacks before being enlarged. When you are enlarged you have 20ft of poke, can ten foot step for 30ft, and then lunge for 35ft of poke. Of course Outslug style is only fully operational at level 11 normally [Lunge (7), Outslug Weave (9), Outslug Sprint (11)]. So its not so bad.
Well, unless you were to cheese out Outslug Style and Outslug sprint as a Monk of Many Styles with your first two levels...that gives you ten foot steps at level 2.
There is spear-dancing style if you really need to switch.
I believe the meteor hammer works similarly.
I had a half giant fighter once. Among the weapons on his back was a large long spear. 15 foot reach. It was great against huge foes. Why? Because he didn't have to take 2 AoOs to get within melee.
A reach weapon shouldn't be the go-to weapon of the fighter, without feats like pokearm master, but it should be in his/her arsenal.
I wrecked some serious face with reach weapons. Sure, it's an intricate build, but...
Dwarf. Starts out as fighter for some feats and stuff, then druid to level 8 to get a variety of fun things, most importantly Huge Earth Elemental form for 24 hours a day with the feat that boosts wild shape levels. Also tremorsense and ability to cast deeper darkness. Then go into Stalwart defender, to get Bulwark and then Halting blow. Use a huge dwarven dorn-dergar.
You get the ability to smash people as far away as 45' or so, depending on the GM's interpretation of weapon sizes. Every time you hit someone you get an AoO on, they can't keep moving. And you can do it in perfect darkness, while still pinpointing exactly where everyone is standing. A wild stone plate gets you amazing AC, your saves and hp should be legendary, and your dorn-dergar is a pretty serious wrecking ball.
Fun.
Yeah, lunge is just for positioning so that enemies are often forced to spend a move and eat an AoO to engage you at all. It makes it so that they can't just play footsies to close in.
That, and having a really great range for your full attacks. That is always nice.
It is great, but it is still just a single feat that doesn't use up actions to activate or uses per day. So it doesn't go quite that far. Getting a full extra 5' of true, AoO drawing reach is often an entire class feature- the aberrant bloodline of blood ragers is an example.
Unfortunately, it is the close weapon group not the monk weapon group that works with Outslug Style.(short of somehow getting outslug style to work with polearms)In general, Outslug Style works fine with a polearm... you just choose a different weapon for Outslug Style, but then wield a polearm.
The Tri-Point Double-Edged Sword is a typical martial reach polearm that's part of the Monk weapon group, so a Human(ish) Fighter could specialize in the Monk weapons group and take Martial Versatility: Outslug Style to officially use Outslug Style with the T-PD-ES.
Yes, but both unarmed strike and cestus are both close and monk, so you can easily cross over between groups. You take Outslug with either of those weapons, then invoke the monk group for Martial Versatility - and you can use the monk group as your training focus to benefit both weapons. There's even an AWT feature for sharing weapon feats in a weapon group.
Yes, but both unarmed strike and cestus are both close and monk, so you can easily cross over between groups. You take Outslug with either of those weapons, then invoke the monk group for Martial Versatility - and you can use the monk group as your training focus to benefit both weapons. There's even an AWT feature for sharing weapon feats in a weapon group.Unfortunately, it is the close weapon group not the monk weapon group that works with Outslug Style.(short of somehow getting outslug style to work with polearms)In general, Outslug Style works fine with a polearm... you just choose a different weapon for Outslug Style, but then wield a polearm.
The Tri-Point Double-Edged Sword is a typical martial reach polearm that's part of the Monk weapon group, so a Human(ish) Fighter could specialize in the Monk weapons group and take Martial Versatility: Outslug Style to officially use Outslug Style with the T-PD-ES.
I can see the argument. I would personally not allow it as it goes against the purpose of the style. Well, so does taking it but only using it to get 10ft steps for your spear >_>
I hate to be the person to cry for errata but this needs it, the feat is clearly designed to only function for close fighter weapons. Allowing it to function with other weapons through martial versatility would open the feat to Heavy Blades, Light Blades, Hammers, and throwning weapons.
Do you really want to see people running around with a two level dip into MoMS carting around Greatswords with 10ft steps?
Yeah, basically it boils down to even if your only advantage is 1 initial AoO, that is still worth it.
Step-Up is marginal Feat and silly to worry about, for similar cost you can counter it or have close-quarters option.
Also, FYI: it is now official FAQ that you can use Reach Weapon hafts as improvised normal-reach weapons.
(although since that's at penalty, you're better off having close-quarters option, whether bite/claw/gauntlet/UAS).
Fact of the matter is, AoOs are disproportionately effective because they are full BAB unlike iteratives.
You're missing the point if you make everything revolve around 1vs1 encounter where both parties survive multiple rounds.
(although even there, just 1 full BAB AoO at high hit % ends fight faster to your benefit)
Reach enabled AoOs enable you to make attacks that you never would have made otherwise,
attacking enemies who aren't TRYING to engage you in toe to toe full attack game.
You can take Combat Reflexes and make bunches of AoOs per round all at full BAB.
You can also choose to move enough that nobody can full attack, but you still get your extra AoOs if they engage.
Reach also means you aren't going to suffer the downside when other side also has Reach.
In other words, it is required just to have parity vs bigger monsters, in some cases Enlarge+Reach needed for parity.
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Yeah, basically it boils down to even if your only advantage is 1 initial AoO, that is still worth it.
Step-Up is marginal Feat and silly to worry about, for similar cost you can counter it or have close-quarters option.
Also, FYI: it is now official FAQ that you can use Reach Weapon hafts as improvised normal-reach weapons.
(although since that's at penalty, you're better off having close-quarters option, whether bite/claw/gauntlet/UAS).Fact of the matter is, AoOs are disproportionately effective because they are full BAB unlike iteratives.
Reach has been even more threatening after the release of fortuitous property weapons.
I mean...a +1 on weapon cost for turning that AoO into a mini full attack using a 2 handed weapon? Sure, it is only 1/round... but that means your GM has to determine which minion feels "lucky". Your GM has to willingly decide which minions to sacrifice.
IF ASPIRING BARBARIAN AM HAVING PROBLEMS LANCING THING THAT AM ON TREETOP, BARBARIAN RECOMMEND FINDING FLYING MOUNT.
LANCE AM PART OF SIGNATURE ATTACK NAME FOR REASON. AM VERY GOOD REASON, AS WELL.
AM NOT "AM BARBARIAN," BUT AM DIFFERENT BARBARIAN, AND AM ROLL ONE ON "IHN-ISH-AH-TIV." (AM STILL HAVE GOOD "IHN-ISH-AH-TIV" THOUGH, AM JUST ROLL BAD.) AM DIFFERENT BARBARIAN THAN "AM BARBARIAN," SO AM OFFER DIFFERENT OPTIONS THAN "AM BARBARIAN"!
AM FIND HAVE FLYING MOUNT LIKE "AM BARBARIAN" TOO "KLEE-SHAY." ALSO, AM DUMP "IHN-TEHL-UH-GINTZ," BECAUSE BARBARIAN AM WANT SMASH BETTER, SO AM NOT SMART LIKE "AM BARBARIAN" TO GET MOUNT THAT FLY.
BUT, AM BARBARIAN! AM MOVE FAST! AM JUMP GOOD! AM JUMP AT CASTY, AM SMASH CASTY HIDING IN TREE LIKE PANCAKE, AM SMASH CASTY DEAD WITH RAGELANCEPOUNCE!
OR, SMASH TREE CASTY HIDING IN. CASTY FALL DOWN LIKE ROCK. CASTY NOW GET SMASHED LIKE PANCAKE FOR STANDING UP TO BARBARIAN! GOOD BARBARIAN SMASH BOTH CASTY AND TREE AT SAME TIME! (SEE, AM DUMP "IHN-TEHL-UH-GINTZ," BUT AM STILL SMART BARBARIAN!)
Yes, but both unarmed strike and cestus are both close and monk, so you can easily cross over between groups. You take Outslug with either of those weapons, then invoke the monk group for Martial Versatility - and you can use the monk group as your training focus to benefit both weapons. There's even an AWT feature for sharing weapon feats in a weapon group.I can see the argument. I would personally not allow it as it goes against the purpose of the style. Well, so does taking it but only using it to get 10ft steps for your spear >_>
I hate to be the person to cry for errata but this needs it, the feat is clearly designed to only function for close fighter weapons. Allowing it to function with other weapons through martial versatility would open the feat to Heavy Blades, Light Blades, Hammers, and throwning weapons.
Do you really want to see people running around with a two level dip into MoMS carting around Greatswords with 10ft steps?
Well, Martial Versatility requires 4 levels of Fighter and a feat, and Outslug Style requires a huge feat investment. MoMS no longer allows you to skip prerequisites. Even if MoMS dipping still worked, we're talking about a build that would require at least Fighter 4 and 2 regular Monk without flurry.
As it is, I have no issue with someone investing all those feats on a Fighter then getting to use/manipulate Outslug. Using/manipulating feat trees is what the Fighter is supposed to be good at.
AM TWO BARBARIANS? AM PALADIN NEED AM VACATION.
"AM PALADIN" THINK NOT MORE THAN ONE BARBARIAN? "AM BARBARIAN" "PRAH-BUH-BLEE" SAY TO "AM PALADIN" THAT ONE NEVER CAN HAVE TOO MUCH BARBARIAN! AND DIFFERENT BARBARIAN AM AGREE!
Would outslug combine well with a scout rogue's skirmish ability? Take a 10-foot step, then get sneak attack.
That it would, Ravingdork.
Unfortunately you only get one sneak attack even if you can make multiple attacks. They planned ahead. If only there was a recursive sneak attack ability that made people you used sneak attack on flat footed, that would work. Well there is, but you cannot select yourself as the person who benefits from the ability >_>
So its only 10d6 maximum bonus damage on one hit per round unless you have a twin brother playing the same build.
Monk of Many Styles 1: IUS, Stunning Fist, Outslug Style
MoMS 2: Outslug Sprint
Scout Rogue 1: Enforcer or (Power Attack)
Scout Rogue 2: Weapon Focus
Scout Rogue 3: Dazzling Display
Scout Rogue 4: (If Power Attack) Rogue Talent: Combat Trick - Cornugon Smash or Intimidating Prowess Rogue Talent
Scout Rouge 5: Gory Finish
Scout Rogue 6:
Scout Rogue 7: Shatter Defenses
Scout Rogue 8:
You can have it active before getting the ability to sneak attack off moving 10ft.
Huh. When did that happen.
Can you take one level of MoMS and 1 level of Unarmed Fighter?
Damn, thats a shame.
Fighter (Lore Warden) 2/Scout Rogue 10
Fighter 1: Enforcer, Power Attack
Rogue 1: Nothing
Rogue 2: Talent: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise, Gory Display
Rogue 3: Free Feat
Rogue 4: Talent: Ninja Trick, Outslug Style
Rogue 5: Cornugon Smash
Rogue 6: Talent: Intimidating Prowess
Rogue 7: Lunge
Rogue 8: Talent: Free Feat, Outslug Weave
Rogue 9: Outslug Sprint
Rogue 10: Feat, Shatter Defenses
Grrr, that is frustrating.
Huh. When did that happen.
It happened when they revised the Crane Style feat chain for the third and final time, some time after the Crane Wing PFS cheese that caused it to get nerfed to the ground.
Personally, it should've been the first thing they errata'd. Or they should've just banned the archetype from PFS. (They've arbitrarily banned other archetypes that weren't anywhere near as broken, so...)
On the upside, the reworked MoMS Monk is actually kind of interesting, since they decided that it at least deserved a very healthy attack bonus to compensate for the loss of flurry.
Now if they could just drop the one 'controversial' line from Ascetic Style so that it would work clearly...
I'm sorry, but I am missing something. What attack bonus?
I completely missed that, I guess I am used to just skimming that portion since it normally says "you can use another style simultaneously" and then some clarifications.
So the MoMS eventually becomes a full BAB class, thats a decent patch. I knew the style got patched but I didn't realize the change to MoMS or Crane Style was so drastic.
Yeah, I wasn't aware of that either. Thanks for pointing it out!
so wait, the 2nd and 3rd style feats in a chain aren't style feats anymore?
thats pretty strange
EDIT: also you are missing the real Martial Versatility gem here.
Martial Versatility(Spear Dancing Style (Nodachi)) allows you to use a greatsword with spear dancing style.
Add that to 4 levels of Bralwer and the second feat in the chain (maybe requires a second shot of Martial Versatility?) and you can flurry with the greatsword. Now take Quarterstaff Master and you can dual wield greatswords (not that you need to thanks to the way Brawler's Flurry works).
If you dip a level of MoMS and fuse the Mobile Bulwark style you can flurry with a greatsword in one hand and a tower shield in the other.
so wait, the 2nd and 3rd style feats in a chain aren't style feats anymore?
thats pretty strange
They never were style feats, they were always associated feats that you could only use whilst using the base style feat.
so MoMS's bonus style feat is only ever the first feat in the chain?
The errata'd MoMs, yes, unless he uses the 'wildcard slot' option at 6th level.
The original MoM had a clause along the lines of 'or a feat in that styles feat path' or something
random aside - I always want to hyphenate 'pre-requisite' - I have no idea why...
Ah, gotcha. As i may have mentioned i've only ever dipped one level of it anyway, and i used it to get he first feat in the chain., just kinda strange that these are not all style feats even though its impossible to get them without knowing and using the style.
I have a Fighter/7, Brawler/2 that primarily wields a Glaive-Guisarme. She took those 2 Brawler levels to threaten at 5ft and gain other feats as needed. She also has Punishing Kick to keep her full attack without needing to 5ft step. Unarmed Strike and push them back 5ft. and Reach on the iteratives. Casters and archers get really frustrated when I use my previously uneeded 5ft step to close the distance again. Now they're practically garunteed to eat an AO on their turn.
To be fair the whole thing falls apart if the dependent feats were style feats as I think (possibly/maybe) you could then (technically) go into e.g. 'boar shred' style without going into 'boar style'.
Some of the newer style feat chains I've seen lately appear to have all of the feats in the chain listed as style feats.
But yeah, that definitely was not the case with the earlier feats.
Editor's mistake maybe?
Yep. Style Feat should only refer to a feat that actually allows entering a combat style - or at least, that's how it used to work.
Even tankier Shield-Slamming Skirnir Magus build for you. Dwarves are awesome. They treat the Dorn-Dergar as a Martial Weapon, and you can switch this between Reach and non-Reach mode as needed; however, if you are using your shield as an off-hand weapon and are Shield Slamming with it, in most cases you can probably just leave it in Reach Mode. It is normally two-handed, but the Dorn-Dergar Master feat lets you make it one-handed. Before you qualify for this feat, Dwarves get some other pretty good weapons that they can use one-handed even though they would be either two-handed or effectively off-limits to other people.