Fast healing vs. Drowning


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Sczarni

Question:

Can someone who has fast healing (1) drown? Additional "silly" question: does drowning mean you die (not RAW, at least as far as I've found)?

Is it case 1: you drop to 0 HP, wake up via fast heal to 1 HP, then drop to -1 HP, then fast heal to 0 HP, then drown then you are dead and fast healing doesn't help any more?

OR is it case 2: You drop to 0 HP, wake up via fast heal to 1 HP, choke another lung full of water, drop to 0 HP, heal to 1 HP, repeat ad nausea until you are rescued?

Bonus tied to the second "silly" question: a critter with regen drowns, does it die (and regen stops) or not?

Note: exactly zero HP is disabled, not unconscious, sorry. So case 2 is disabled, then able, then disabled, then able, etc...

Scarab Sages

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maouse wrote:

Question:

Can someone who has fast healing (1) drown? Additional "silly" question: does drowning mean you die (not RAW, at least as far as I've found)?

Is it case 1: you drop to 0 HP, wake up via fast heal to 1 HP, then drop to -1 HP, then fast heal to 0 HP, then drown then you are dead and fast healing doesn't help any more?

OR is it case 2: You drop to 0 HP, wake up via fast heal to 1 HP, choke another lung full of water, drop to 0 HP, heal to 1 HP, repeat ad nausea until you are rescued?

Bonus tied to the second "silly" question: a critter with regen drowns, does it die (and regen stops) or not?

Fast Healing wrote:
"Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. "

Sczarni

Lorewalker wrote:


Fast Healing wrote:
"Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. "

OK not to be nit picky but drowning doesn't mention suffocation (though this is obviously what is occurring). Also Drowning states that at 0 HP you are unconscious, which must be "left over" from some previous game rules, as 0 HP only means staggered in PFS, not unconscious.

And while Fast Healing doesn't restore HP "lost" - no HP are actually lost from the drowning description. You simply "drop" to levels 0 HP, -1 HP and then drown (whatever that means). Since Fast Healing heals you HP each round, and drowning doesn't mention one of those things it doesn't heal... one could argue semantics. Though I think we all get the RAI, RAW is a bit arbitrary. I mean, what happens if you get pulled out after getting knocked to 0 or -1? Do you heal? Do you mope around and have to wait a week to heal up from this "wound"? A 400 HP fighter with FH 1 "starts to drown" drops to zero HP, and then has to heal 400 HP naturally? 10 days of complete bed rest (2x20th lvl x 10 days)? Ah... the power of fluid in your lungs, I guess.

And again: is "drowned" = dead? Extra RAW tidbit: Drowning and Suffocation are separate sections in the rules, each with their own titles and everything (again, semantics, but we all know someone who Is drowning is also suffocating, so one can easily see BOTH sets apply).


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You can drown a troll or starve them to death and fast healing is just a cheap man's version of regeneration.


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Also, drowning specifically states "falls unconscious".
As a GM I would go with incapacitated. I suspect you have an idea to be able to perform some action.

Drowning is a subset of suffocation, not a superset containing it. Neither fast healing nor regeneration will help you.

Scarab Sages

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maouse wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:


Fast Healing wrote:
"Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. "

OK not to be nit picky but drowning doesn't mention suffocation (though this is obviously what is occurring). Also Drowning states that at 0 HP you are unconscious, which must be "left over" from some previous game rules, as 0 HP only means staggered in PFS, not unconscious.

And while Fast Healing doesn't restore HP "lost" - no HP are actually lost from the drowning description. You simply "drop" to levels 0 HP, -1 HP and then drown (whatever that means). Since Fast Healing heals you HP each round, and drowning doesn't mention one of those things it doesn't heal... one could argue semantics. Though I think we all get the RAI, RAW is a bit arbitrary. I mean, what happens if you get pulled out after getting knocked to 0 or -1? Do you heal? Do you mope around and have to wait a week to heal up from this "wound"? A 400 HP fighter with FH 1 "starts to drown" drops to zero HP, and then has to heal 400 HP naturally? 10 days of complete bed rest (2x20th lvl x 10 days)? Ah... the power of fluid in your lungs, I guess.

And again: is "drowned" = dead? Extra RAW tidbit: Drowning and Suffocation are separate sections in the rules, each with their own titles and everything (again, semantics, but we all know someone who Is drowning is also suffocating, so one can easily see BOTH sets apply).

That is actually super nitpicky.

Try reading the suffocation and drowning rules. They are mirrors of each other.

And drowning(and suffocation) causes you to fall unconscious at the same time that it drops you to 0 HP. You are both things. One is not the consequence of the other. It is a special condition from drowning.

You do lose hit points. Is you current hit points less than their max? Then you have lost hit points. Waaaaay too fine a cut there. Or do you think it is trying to describe some kind of temporary hit point loss that is also somehow not a loss? Those HP can not be healed by fast healing. But nothing prevents you from healing magically.

If you are drowned you are dead. Drown = "die through submersion in and inhalation of water."

Sczarni

Lorewalker wrote:


That is actually super nitpicky.
Try reading the suffocation and drowning rules. They are mirrors of each other.

And drowning(and suffocation) causes you to fall unconscious at the same time that it drops you to 0 HP. You are both things. One is not the consequence of the other. It is a special condition from drowning.

You do lose hit points. Is you current hit points less than their max? Then you have lost hit points. Waaaaay too fine a cut there. Or do you think it is trying to...

You do lose hit points, but you do not take hit point damage... that is a specific difference in rules on damage. And it is noted in a lot of places as having different rules / effects.

Honestly it still makes no sense that you don't heal from near drowning "naturally." Ie. I would rule that after you are "rescued" fast healing would heal the damage, just as any natural healing would. But "during" drowning, it doesn't save you, because you are also suffocating. Once you are no longer under said condition, you heal naturally, which includes fast healing fixing healing you - you didn't take 400 points of "suffocation damage", you were reduced to 0 (or -1 HP). So all those HP are healable with Fast Healing since you did not take "suffocation damage." Also, this makes the most sense. Even normally, people don't take days to recover from near drowning. RAI overcomes RAW in this case.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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maouse wrote:
OK not to be nit picky but drowning doesn't mention suffocation

Then don't be!

FastHealing won't help a suffocating person.

Scarab Sages

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maouse wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:


That is actually super nitpicky.
Try reading the suffocation and drowning rules. They are mirrors of each other.

And drowning(and suffocation) causes you to fall unconscious at the same time that it drops you to 0 HP. You are both things. One is not the consequence of the other. It is a special condition from drowning.

You do lose hit points. Is you current hit points less than their max? Then you have lost hit points. Waaaaay too fine a cut there. Or do you think it is trying to...

You do lose hit points, but you do not take hit point damage... that is a specific difference in rules on damage. And it is noted in a lot of places as having different rules / effects.

Honestly it still makes no sense that you don't heal from near drowning "naturally." Ie. I would rule that after you are "rescued" fast healing would heal the damage, just as any natural healing would. But "during" drowning, it doesn't save you, because you are also suffocating. Once you are no longer under said condition, you heal naturally, which includes fast healing fixing healing you - you didn't take 400 points of "suffocation damage", you were reduced to 0 (or -1 HP). So all those HP are healable with Fast Healing since you did not take "suffocation damage." Also, this makes the most sense. Even normally, people don't take days to recover from near drowning. RAI overcomes RAW in this case.

For someone who doesn't want to be nitpicky, you are extremely nitpicky.

I get that you don't like the rule. But that's when you say, "I'm going to house rule this" not say "Oh, I'm going to say the rules say this... even though it's opposite of what the rules actually say."


Maouse. Suffocation is the state or process of dying from being deprived of air or unable to breathe. Drowning is to die through submersion in and inhalation of water.

Thus, Drowning is the exact same as suffocation and Fast Healing cannot save you. Metabolically speaking; you need oxygen to heal and because your lungs can't break the H2O molecule down, aka waterbreathing.

You can't regenerate without the energy to do so. I'm actually going to make a house rule for any kind of extraordinary or supernatural healing/regeneration. Unless you eat to keep up with the healing factor, while healing, you'll begin to starve and incur a penalty to your healing until you consume more food. Otherwise you treat eating normally to maintain health. (Hardcore rules, possibly).


I hope this doesn't have anything to do with Wolverine under water in Days of Future Past.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Daw wrote:
I hope this doesn't have anything to do with Wolverine under water in Days of Future Past.

What happened in Days of Future Past?


Lorewalker wrote:


That is actually super nitpicky.
Try reading the suffocation and drowning rules. They are mirrors of each other.

They are very similar. I don't understand why drowning doesn't refer you immediately to suffocation. It's things like this that make me want a CRB 2.0.


Days of Future Past:
Wolverine was impaled onto a metal frame by Magneto and tossed into the river. When he was pulled out he self-revived.

This seems to be what the OP wants to be happening with the way he wants the rules to go.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ok, I think too many things

Spoiler:
Wolverine
Clair from Heroes
etc
want regenerate and fast healing to be "raise me from the dead" type abilities?


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Actually, I think they want the interpretation that with regeneration, you can never really die, and if you read only small parts of descriptions, you can almost get there. I think you would have better luck being a rival of Thanos for Death's affections.


Redneckdevil wrote:
You can drown a troll or starve them to death and fast healing is just a cheap man's version of regeneration.

Why does a troll die from drowning or starving, but not die from having his lungs and stomach removed?


Matthew Downie wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:
You can drown a troll or starve them to death and fast healing is just a cheap man's version of regeneration.
Why does a troll die from drowning or starving, but not die from having his lungs and stomach removed?

Because he can regrow his stomach back before he starves to death. However the losing the lungs should kill him by the game rules because it takes an hour to regrow lost body parts.

The game says they can regrow lost body parts, but only gives a time period of 1 hour for body parts that are brought back to the troll's body. There is no rule for how long it takes if the body part is not not attached to the troll in some way.

PS: I am aware that you were making fun of the game rules, but I became curious to see if there was a real answer. <----If you were serious then I just gave a real answer by accident. Now I want to decide on a reasonable time to regrow a lost part.

Sczarni

Matthew Downie wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:
You can drown a troll or starve them to death and fast healing is just a cheap man's version of regeneration.
Why does a troll die from drowning or starving, but not die from having his lungs and stomach removed?

My issue is that the "damage" the drowning/suffocation does in not "damage" but stages of death. A 400 HP fighter doesn't take 400 points of drowning damage. He drops to 0 HP. You don't take 1d6 per round (damage). You drop to a stage (0 HP). Thus, your Fast Healing / Regen should heal a HP your next round - because you are at 0 HP, so you have 400 more HP for it to heal. The next round you drop to either the next STAGE (-1 HP) or to 0 HP (because you were at 1 at the end of the last round).

The "wolverine" example is precisely the example I am talking about. The TARRASQUE can't be drowned. A magic bubble with no air around it's head won't "kill it" in three rounds. Nor does being buried alive for centuries - though this is in Torpor, it can easily be seen to take more than three rounds for it to dig out. Or does he just die every three rounds until he digs out, holding onto his other ability to raise him in another three rounds? Maybe that's why he's PO'd.

I'm not saying that it is ran wrong regarding killing things (or maybe I am? hard to tell). I'm just implying that "taking damage" doesn't occur from suffocation, therefore you CAN fast heal/ regen the "damage" that wasn't done via it's stage drops. The question is, does it work like Marvel Comics or what? "Until you are dead" implies it has two rounds to work (two pre-stages) in which time you are not healing 400 suffocation damage... because nothing in the book says you take suffocation damage at all. You simply drop to HP stages. So you should be able to heal HP up to your max since the loss was not due to being damaged by a source. But alas, "that's not how we interpret it" RAI trumps a very poorly worded RAW. (is drowned = dead? CPR works for 3-5 minutes after suffocating... so are they dead? IRL, of course.)

And again, my real life issue with the RAI interpretation presented here is that as someone who's gone through Marine water training can tell you, you are pretty much at full HP after they pass you out and give you CPR. Now these may just be first level fighters, but my guess is they would have 10 HP. The "training" passed them out (to -1 HP) and brought them back. They don't take a week to recover their strength. They take about 10 minutes. So the "damage" that WASN'T done is pretty evident in real life examples. Yes, they nearly died. But 10 minutes later they are moving on with Marine training. Doesn't matter if it is the Captain with 40 HP or the grunt with 10. You drop to 0 HP (panic), drop to -1 HP (pass out). They revive you. You are fine in 10 minutes. Repeat until you stop going into panic mode at 0 HP. Use that last 6 seconds to move 15 feet and get out of the water yourself. Marine aquatics training is a great example of what I'm talking about.

I'm fine with the "if you don't get out of the situation you die" bit. Third stage is death. Ok. No problem. My problem is with the whole "it does 1,000,000,000 damage" to someone with a billion HP. It doesn't. It drops stages. Which is not the same as doing x damage. Which would mean FH and Regen can heal you from stage 0 HP back to 1 HP over and over and over. (and you get the wolverine or sparkle vampire drowning over and over examples) - Another way to RAW say this is: show me where either location says "Suffocation DOES X damage." It doesn't exist. Therefore it does NO damage. Ever. RAW. It just drops stages. FH / Regen work if you are under your max HP. Ergo, you heal at the first stage - over and over.


Fast Healing does not help vs deprivation, which is what type of death , drowning is.


Okay; There is Fast Healing and Regeneration. Fast Healing heals wounds, but it cannot replace removed body parts. Thus suffocation and drowning are possible if you've got Fast Healing.

Regeneration, on the other hand, acts as Fast Healing, plus the ability to regain limbs and organs that have been removed. So in the case of Starvation, Suffocation, and Drowning, you'd be rendered helpless, but not dead.

I'd caveat that extraordinary regeneration requires the consumption of food, because biology says that you can't recover something lost without consuming something of equal or greater proportion. Supernatural regeneration would be an exception because it could be magical in origin, because it can be shut down by an antimagic field unless otherwise specified in the rules.

Sczarni

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Fast Healing does not help vs deprivation, which is what type of death , drowning is.

I get that. It's just silly.

" Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. "

This RAI interprets a person "loses all their HP (to 0 HP)." This loss cannot be healed with FH / Regen.

Starvation and thirst actually do HP DAMAGE to a person. So that can't be healed with FH / Regen. 100% fine with that RAW.

Show me where it says Suffocation causes one to LOSE HP. It isn't there. It needs to be. If I were at -8 HP and awake and drowning I would actually GAIN 8 HP at stage 1 (0 HP).

See the problem? Can I heal an awakened dying person by sticking their head in a bucket? And any healing automatically stabilizes them. Guess I need to start having my healer use this method on people in peril! (but only if they have diehard)

Well, that and 0 HP in PF is not unconscious... -1 is.

It's 100% obvious to me that this is a carry over rule that was simply overlooked and not properly changed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

maouse wrote:
GAIN 8 HP at stage 1 (0 HP).

If you believe the Pathfinder rules tell you that, then you need to play magic.

Pathfinder isn't that literal. You don't gain HP while suffocating at -8. You go to 0 (stay at -8), then you go to -1 (go unconscious and stay at -8), then you die.

Sczarni

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James Risner wrote:
maouse wrote:
GAIN 8 HP at stage 1 (0 HP).

If you believe the Pathfinder rules tell you that, then you need to play magic.

Pathfinder isn't that literal. You don't gain HP while suffocating at -8. You go to 0 (stay at -8), then you go to -1 (go unconscious and stay at -8), then you die.

Actually, RAW, nowhere does it state that you stay at -8. If you are awake, and fail your first save, you go to 0 HP. RAW. 100% RAW.

"When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns."

-Again, pretty poor wording, since per the damage section:

"Hit Points

When your hit point total reaches 0, you’re disabled. When it reaches –1, you’re dying. When it gets to a negative amount equal to your Constitution score, you’re dead. See Injury and Death, for more information."

"Disabled

A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions, but he can still take swift, immediate, and free actions)."

Why you would not simply be disabled for the round you are at 0 HP is beyond me given the other changes in damage sections. It simply looks like an oversight / another left over rule from 3.5.

What you just said in this post is "ignore the rule as written and accept an interpretation of what it is supposed to mean." IE. Accept the RAI that has been presented here. Naw. I'll go my own way.

Here is what I suggest:

"Suffocation

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious. Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged /suffocated (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she is dying. On the following round, she dies.

A person rescued while unconscious can be awoken normally. A person who is dying needs at least one point of healing (natural or magical) to be awoken but is otherwise automatically stabilized when removed from danger. Treat as below 0 HP and unconscious until healed and then they are fully recovered to the state they were in previous to suffocating. If this state was also dying, then apply normal dying rules to their previous state instead, it is possible to die from bleeding while/before you also suffocate and die.

It is possible to suffocate / drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.

Fast Healing, nor Regeneration prevent the death from suffocation."

No need for a separate drowning section at all. This slight alteration does one additional thing: You go unconscious, but keep saving. Which also makes no sense in the original - if you were conscious you fail one save, are dying a round, no save, then die a round later, no additional save (or was there, if you read on...). If you were unconscious you still get to save while dying, and die after one save.

One gave you saves for being in the dying state and one didn't. Now it is streamlined. You get saves during BOTH stages of suffocating to death. Yeh. To DEATH. Oh, and you don't lose 1 billion hit points (body doesn't get all banged up and all your bones broken) simply because you lost air.


I think I get the intent. If you are only disabled and not unconscious, those feats and abilities that allow you to act when you should be disabled would come into play.

I would rule no at my table.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

maouse wrote:
Actually, RAW, nowhere does it state that you stay at -8. If you are awake, and fail your first save, you go to 0 HP. RAW. 100% RAW.

Tomato, Tomato. We both have RAW that says different things.

If you come to my table and point at that passage to say you should be healed from -8 to 0, I'd literally tell you "nice joke, and no".

Sczarni

James Risner wrote:
maouse wrote:
Actually, RAW, nowhere does it state that you stay at -8. If you are awake, and fail your first save, you go to 0 HP. RAW. 100% RAW.

Tomato, Tomato. We both have RAW that says different things.

If you come to my table and point at that passage to say you should be healed from -8 to 0, I'd literally tell you "nice joke, and no".

If I don't go to 0, how am I to DROP to -1 the next round? RAW. It is not really up for debate. It literally does say that. RAI, we certainly agree that it is ludicrous on it's face that one would be healed. But this was my contention with the "damaged" portion. Nowhere does it say drowning does any HP damage (like starvation, for instance). And if you pick and chose when to accept RAW because of the ludicrousness of it, then you are really using RAI and not RAW. So if you interpret the damage against the character, and the healing against the character, aren't you being a "bad GM"? I mean, basically you're being a big meanie not letting Fast Healing and Regen work like it does in the movies. "In the movies" argument wins? Lol. jk at this point, I hope you know.

Anyway, I've said how I'd like to see it actually ran - drowning is suffocation. It does no damage. You either hold your breath or you pass out. You either breath in when unconscious or you don't. If you do, you die. If you get rescued before you die, you shake it off, just like one does in real life. Pretty straight forward, actually.

The optional "FH & Regen" can save you like the movies is obviously not RAI. But that would be the ideal way to run it for the player's sake. With the modified wording presented (stages) they would just die. Game over. Which seems to be the way everyone wants to interpret it here anyway.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

maouse wrote:
RAW. It is not really up for debate. It literally does say that.

Seriously. This sounds like so many of the past FAQ that people said "it literally does say that" and then got FAQ disagreeing with "literally does".

Two examples off the top of my head where we got an FAQ saying "you are reading it wrong" then a second burned FAQ slot saying "no really, you are reading it wrong".

  • Flanking requires melee attacks, so no ranged Sneak Attack from flanking (FAQ for Gang Up and again for Ranged Sneak Attack that said "look at Gang Up guys")
  • Spiked Shields don't stack with Bashing (FAQ said virtual and real don't stack and a second saying "really bashing and spiked shields don't stack guys")

If we get a FAQ, it will say the spell functions the same, your life total won't go up, but your stages will progress normally. Best case, you might be conscious with your "operate normally at -8" when you should be unconscious from suffocation, but you still die. Being conscious doesn't make air appear in your lungs.


We can't get a consistent definition on what damage and hit points actually are, getting something to make sense here is unlikely to happen.


You do realize that this is just another little oversight in the rules, right? By RAW, the dead condition does not prevent you from taking actions, and, to my knowledge, nowhere is it stated that dying gives you the "dead" condition (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there), and the only true way to obtain the dead condition is by losing hit points.

Sczarni

James Risner wrote:
maouse wrote:
RAW. It is not really up for debate. It literally does say that.

Seriously. This sounds like so many of the past FAQ that people said "it literally does say that" and then got FAQ disagreeing with "literally does".

Two examples off the top of my head where we got an FAQ saying "you are reading it wrong" then a second burned FAQ slot saying "no really, you are reading it wrong".

  • Flanking requires melee attacks, so no ranged Sneak Attack from flanking (FAQ for Gang Up and again for Ranged Sneak Attack that said "look at Gang Up guys")
  • Spiked Shields don't stack with Bashing (FAQ said virtual and real don't stack and a second saying "really bashing and spiked shields don't stack guys")

If we get a FAQ, it will say the spell functions the same, your life total won't go up, but your stages will progress normally. Best case, you might be conscious with your "operate normally at -8" when you should be unconscious from suffocation, but you still die. Being conscious doesn't make air appear in your lungs.

It does state "or loses 1 HP if below -1" - but that is only after it states they go to 0 HP... and doesn't state anything about losing NOR gaining HP.

Sczarni

Daedalus the Dungeon Builder wrote:

You do realize that this is just another little oversight in the rules, right? By RAW, the dead condition does not prevent you from taking actions, and, to my knowledge, nowhere is it stated that dying gives you the "dead" condition (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there), and the only true way to obtain the dead condition is by losing hit points.

Actually the two conditions kinda say ALL THAT....

"Dying

A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character’s next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies."

It dies - gains the dead condition? Argue it doesn't RAW say that... but under "Dead" we find...

"Dead

The character’s hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."

Dying doesn't kill you, this is technically correct(ignoring "dies"). Reaching negative HP = Con Score presents the DEAD condition upon you. Being DEAD does not preclude actions. A DYING creature status means you can take no actions. Like all conditions, one does not preclude the other. If you can somehow get actions while under both conditions, more power to you. Being dead does not present the stabilized condition either, ergo no actions still.

Keep making you checks after you reach -CON HP, since you are supposed to. Then you become stable, unconscious, helpless and dead. Dead people are no longer people, but objects. And objects can take no actions.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

maouse wrote:
it states they go to 0 HP

If you can't understand that "goes to 0" is written in the context of someone having taken no damage and at full health, then you may not understand that the rules are also written in the context of a humanoid biped with two arms and additional limb support takes that into account.

Sczarni

James Risner wrote:
maouse wrote:
it states they go to 0 HP

If you can't understand that "goes to 0" is written in the context of someone having taken no damage and at full health, then you may not understand that the rules are also written in the context of a humanoid biped with two arms and additional limb support takes that into account.

I understand it completely. I am arguing RAW versus RAI. RAW it says you go to 0 HP, so you go to 0 HP. Think of it as computer code. If you tell it to go to 0 HP, it goes to 0 HP. It doesn't check for -8 HP, it just sets HP variable to 0. You could write a logic subroutine to check and just leave it at -8. But RAW didn't do that.

You might wish the code was written. You might understand the need for the code to be written. But that doesn't mean it was, or is. RAW is RAW. RAI we all understand why we don't need it changed to explain to us "if you have HP > 1 then go to 0 HP, otherwise don't change HP." I'm not trying to be thick, but RAW you go to 0 HP. Facts is facts with RAW. It either says it or it doesn't. And it does. It might be stupid. And I might seem like I am thick headed and stupid because I point it out. But that doesn't change the RAW text one letter.

So we can all agree that RAI is what is needed since the text is messed up. Which, to me, says it needs to be re-written (however slightly) to support the common use (RAI).

I'm not disagreeing with you on RAI, only suggesting how I would re-write it to better simulate reality.


maouse wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Fast Healing does not help vs deprivation, which is what type of death , drowning is.

I get that. It's just silly.

" Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. "

This RAI interprets a person "loses all their HP (to 0 HP)." This loss cannot be healed with FH / Regen.

Starvation and thirst actually do HP DAMAGE to a person. So that can't be healed with FH / Regen. 100% fine with that RAW.

Show me where it says Suffocation causes one to LOSE HP. It isn't there. It needs to be. If I were at -8 HP and awake and drowning I would actually GAIN 8 HP at stage 1 (0 HP).

See the problem? Can I heal an awakened dying person by sticking their head in a bucket? And any healing automatically stabilizes them. Guess I need to start having my healer use this method on people in peril! (but only if they have diehard)

Well, that and 0 HP in PF is not unconscious... -1 is.

It's 100% obvious to me that this is a carry over rule that was simply overlooked and not properly changed.

The rules are not written perfectly but many times we know intent.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing if you read it literally. The point being made is that the intent is not hard to understand in this case.
I really dont see much else to disagree with.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Drowning isn't helped by fast healing.

If you'd like to open an FAQ to have the pathfinder team tell you this, go ahead.

Using the tarrasque as an example is disingenuous as its healing is clearly beyond the norm.

I want to hold this thread under water.

Sczarni

Cavall wrote:

Drowning isn't helped by fast healing.

If you'd like to open an FAQ to have the pathfinder team tell you this, go ahead.

Using the tarrasque as an example is disingenuous as its healing is clearly beyond the norm.

I want to hold this thread under water.

If it were the Tarrasque, would it die and come back or not die at all due to regen? I was simply pointing out that there are "some" movie style monsters out there. And also, my original plan for it was to get a bunch of flying mages with mirrors of soul trapping (eventually it would look at one and fail a save). If all I have to do is stick a cube of force on it's head, hells bells! Easy peazy and cheap!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

maouse wrote:

Think of it as computer code.

I'm not disagreeing with you on RAI, only suggesting how I would re-write it to better simulate reality.

Sadly you will never get your wish.

There are many posts from Paizo PDT, FAQ, and other Paizo staff saying the rules are not Kent to be read literally, that you must apply common sense to get to RAI, and that they don't plan on adjusting the text when the FAQ or PDT post will clear up misunderstandings.

So in this case, we know RAI so as a result we know RAW. You don't get healed from -8 to 0 by RAW.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Cavall wrote:

Drowning isn't helped by fast healing.

If you'd like to open an FAQ to have the pathfinder team tell you this, go ahead.

Using the tarrasque as an example is disingenuous as its healing is clearly beyond the norm.

I want to hold this thread under water.

My original contention was that Suffocation does not do HP DAMAGE except during long term suffocation, and that Drowning doesn't mention doing damage at all. The "lost from" part of FH indicates damage that doesn't exist. The "goes to 0 HP" stage (1st stage) was shown to be a RAW error when I point out that a conscious negative HP person would end up HEALING up to 0 HP with RAW. So Suffocation then would be healing, not harming a character, thus no LOSS of HP due to 1st stage.

I also pointed out how dumb the entire idea is when presented with what actually happens in real life near drowning cases and suggested a more reasonable write up. I know how I'll run it in my games (as I wrote it up). You're welcome to try to reconcile the messed up RAW. No. It isn't that hard. But I'm not going to make a 86 HP fighter rest a week or burn a wand of healing because he failed to hold his breath for a round.

RAI we all agree. RAW is what is messed up. Yeh, it needs a FAQ.


maouse wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Drowning isn't helped by fast healing.

If you'd like to open an FAQ to have the pathfinder team tell you this, go ahead.

Using the tarrasque as an example is disingenuous as its healing is clearly beyond the norm.

I want to hold this thread under water.

My original contention was that Suffocation does not do HP DAMAGE except during long term suffocation, and that Drowning doesn't mention doing damage at all. The "lost from" part of FH indicates damage that doesn't exist. The "goes to 0 HP" stage (1st stage) was shown to be a RAW error when I point out that a conscious negative HP person would end up HEALING up to 0 HP with RAW. So Suffocation then would be healing, not harming a character, thus no LOSS of HP due to 1st stage.

I also pointed out how dumb the entire idea is when presented with what actually happens in real life near drowning cases and suggested a more reasonable write up. I know how I'll run it in my games (as I wrote it up). You're welcome to try to reconcile the messed up RAW. No. It isn't that hard. But I'm not going to make a 86 HP fighter rest a week or burn a wand of healing because he failed to hold his breath for a round.

RAI we all agree. RAW is what is messed up. Yeh, it needs a FAQ.

They do seem to be on an FAQ streak lately. I would go ahead and start one before they get bogged down on another project.

Scarab Sages

maouse wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Drowning isn't helped by fast healing.

If you'd like to open an FAQ to have the pathfinder team tell you this, go ahead.

Using the tarrasque as an example is disingenuous as its healing is clearly beyond the norm.

I want to hold this thread under water.

If it were the Tarrasque, would it die and come back or not die at all due to regen? I was simply pointing out that there are "some" movie style monsters out there. And also, my original plan for it was to get a bunch of flying mages with mirrors of soul trapping (eventually it would look at one and fail a save). If all I have to do is stick a cube of force on it's head, hells bells! Easy peazy and cheap!

[assumes using the most recent version of the Tarrasque]

To answer your question... the Tarrasque does not die from suffocation. If it is in danger of suffocation it goes into hibernation. This is a trait of Godspawn creatures, of which the Tarrasaque is one.

"Hibernation (Ex)

Godspawn can sleep for years, decades, or even centuries and do not need to eat or breathe during these periods of dormancy. If a godspawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken. While in hibernation, a godspawn’s damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects."

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

So why would the power of the gods (Hivernation Ex) be given to anyone with Fast Healing or Regeneration?


maouse wrote:
My issue is that the "damage" the drowning/suffocation does in not "damage" but stages of death. A 400 HP fighter doesn't take 400 points of drowning damage. He drops to 0 HP. You don't take 1d6 per round (damage). You drop to a stage (0 HP). Thus, your Fast Healing / Regen should heal a HP your next round - because you are at 0 HP, so you have 400 more HP for it to heal. The next round you drop to either the next STAGE (-1 HP) or to 0 HP (because you were at 1 at the end of the last round)...

Drowning, suffocating and so on does NOT deal HP damage. It sets the character/NPC HP to specific values as part of the drowning process.

Per rules:

Quote:

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown.

In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp).

1-. The moment a character fails her drowning CON roll, she drops to zero HP and goes unconscious. She isn't dealt XXXhp damage, her HP value is set to zero.

Quote:
In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying.

2-. The next round, if that character is still drowning, she drops to -1HP even if a miriad of healers raised her back to full hp the previous round. She isn't dealt 1 damage, or 200, or 401 or whatever number is required, her HP value is set to -1 from whatever number it was the previous round.

Quote:
In the third round, she drowns.

3-. The third round, if that character is still drowning, that character dies. The character's HP value doesn't drop to a negative value equal to their CON, instead, the character/NPC status is set to "Dead"

Per dead rules:

Quote:
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect.

The Dead condition is set directly because of an effect, not because of HP damage. That's also why HP changes due to suffocation/drowning/Starvation/... are not healed by Fast Healing or Regeneration.

Quote:
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

You aren't dealt HP damage, your HP is set to specific values, and Regen directly states you cannot heal those set values.

Scarab Sages

Yorien wrote:
maouse wrote:
My issue is that the "damage" the drowning/suffocation does in not "damage" but stages of death. A 400 HP fighter doesn't take 400 points of drowning damage. He drops to 0 HP. You don't take 1d6 per round (damage). You drop to a stage (0 HP). Thus, your Fast Healing / Regen should heal a HP your next round - because you are at 0 HP, so you have 400 more HP for it to heal. The next round you drop to either the next STAGE (-1 HP) or to 0 HP (because you were at 1 at the end of the last round)...

Drowning, suffocating and so on does NOT deal HP damage. It sets the character/NPC HP to specific values as part of the drowning process.

Per rules:

Quote:

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown.

In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp).

1-. The moment a character fails her drowning CON roll, she drops to zero HP and goes unconscious. She isn't dealt XXXhp damage, her HP value is set to zero.

Quote:
In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying.

2-. The next round, if that character is still drowning, she drops to -1HP even if a miriad of healers raised her back to full hp the previous round. She isn't dealt 1 damage, or 200, or 401 or whatever number is required, her HP value is set to -1 from whatever number it was the previous round.

Quote:
In the third round, she drowns.

3-. The third round, if that character is still drowning, that character dies. The character's HP value doesn't drop to a negative value equal to their CON, instead, the character/NPC status is set to "Dead"

Per dead rules:

Quote:
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect.
The Dead condition is set directly because of an effect, not because of HP damage. That's also why HP changes due to suffocation/drowning/Starvation/... are...

You're putting far too fine a point on this.

There is not a difference between "setting" and "losing" hp in this matter. As the rules do not offer a difference between the two concepts.
It's fairly obvious that you don't gain HP from drowning. The language is just a short way of saying, "you lose HP equal to your maximum HP or your current positive HP whichever is smaller".

Unless you can find me a point in the game where "set HP" is somehow a different thing than gaining or losing, and that being different than damage, hp based on your current HP? A single rule or definition anywhere?


Hmmm. Negative level loss?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The main difference between Fast Healing and Regeneration is that Fast Healing stops the moment the character hits 0 hp.

Also, keep in mind that if a Troll (or the like) was put in the bottom of a lake and keeps going through the drowning cycle, 0 hp, Regen x, then back to 0 hp and repeat, he would eventually starve, which regen would not heal.


thaX wrote:
The main difference between Fast Healing and Regeneration is that Fast Healing stops the moment the character hits 0 hp.

I think you mean Negative Con HP.

Quote:
Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a creature dies


thaX wrote:

The main difference between Fast Healing and Regeneration is that Fast Healing stops the moment the character hits 0 hp.

Also, keep in mind that if a Troll (or the like) was put in the bottom of a lake and keeps going through the drowning cycle, 0 hp, Regen x, then back to 0 hp and repeat, he would eventually starve, which regen would not heal.

Troll can't heal drowning damage: Regeneration

Quote:


....
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
...

Drowning is also a form of suffocation (lack of air). Once drowning activates, the hp changes stay there for good and the Troll cannot regen those values.

Also beware that there's no 0hp > regen > 0 hp again > regen > 0 hp > ... "cycle". Most environmental effect conditions are staged, and no form of healing prevents creatures moving from stage to stage as long as the condition is still active. Regen doesn't make a creature return to a previous "stage", only the effect stopping allows that.

These are the drowning stages. Most other effects have pretty much the same, with few differences in wording or in timers.

Quote:


...
When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.
...

Thus, even if the creature regens, she won't constantly kick her out and cycle back to the "first round" because of HP value since she's already there. As long as she's still drowning, when one round passes that creature will move to the "following round" stage, and when another round passes the creature will drown.

Of course, this will make pro regen=nigh_immortality players start the "regen wars" in the topic, but that's out of scope.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you both, I believe I mispoke.

Regen continues until something happens to negate it, like using fire on the troll, but drowning does do the job.

Good to know.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Ah finally a way to kill the Tarrasque...just drown it :)

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