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DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to pick and choose the advice I take, or even to decide on taking none at all, and I expect others to respect that right. I've had some bad experiences in the past (it's largely the reason I'm posting this here instead of the Advice forum, for one thing).
ANYWAY: I'm interested in making a Rogue (non-Core, so obviously Unchained). I know just what sort of Rogue I want to be, too: The classic dashing, mischievous master thief with superhuman Dexterity and uncanny luck. I also wouldn't mind some degree of supernatural power. I considered the Counterfeit Mage, but decided it wasn't for me. To be clear, I don't want to multiclass any. I will probably be taking the Fate's Favored trait. Sylph is a strong candidate for the character's race, but I'm not utterly bound to it. Otherwise, what Archetypes and feats (particularly obscure ones) can help with this? I have no problem with the character fighting with dual weapons, but is there possibly a way for a Rogue to make the most of fighting with just one weapon and one free hand?
Sylph might feel like an obvious choice for rogue, but the -2 Con can be devastating. It's hard to keep a melee rogue alive with Con 12 or 10, and 14 for a sylph is pretty expensive in point-buy.
Knife Master is a surprisingly functional archetype if you want to have a free hand while fighting.
If you plan on taking Fate's Favored look at half-orcs and the alt racial trait Sacred Tattoo. It is a +1 luck bonus to all your saves so with Fate's Favored it becomes a +2 to all saves.
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Sylph might feel like an obvious choice for rogue, but the -2 Con can be devastating. It's hard to keep a melee rogue alive with Con 12 or 10, and 14 for a sylph is pretty expensive in point-buy.
Honey, you're talking to someone who gave his Monk a base Constitution of 8 (and the Toughness feat, admittedly). She's level 7 now and doing fine. The closest she's come to death was because of a failed Will save against one of those water Fey that drown victims. And that's to say nothing of my various Elven characters. ^^
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I don't want "builds," thanks, I honestly hate them.
Name-dropping Archetypes, feats, and obscure Rogue Talents interests me, though!
How, besides Fate's Favored, can I make the character "lucky?" I'm wondering if there's anything remotely like the Luck feats from 3.5 hiding in some obscure corner of Pathfinder.
I like the elven branched spear. 1.5x dex on damage in sweet. Combat reflexes and the surprise attack rogue talent make sneaking up on your party deadly.
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Keep in mind that the Minor Magic talent and Major Magic talent have gotten huge upgrades from the Chained Rogue, and can fit into just about any Rogue build.
Minor Magic gives you a cantrip at will.
Major Magic gives you a 1st level spell your level/2 times per day. There are a lot of good possibilities for that, but if you are a Sylph you could get Windy Escape. (Blend is a great one for Elves.)
So I know you said rogue, but this honestly sounds like a swashbuckler.
They are dashing, dex based combatants whose primary fighting style is fighting with 1 weapon and leaving 1 hand free. And Charmed Life and panache is your luckiness, letting you add to rolls.
For rogue archetypes Swindler
Half-orc is the only race to give luck bonus, halfling's luck it a racial bonus.
if leaving a hand free have a buckler on it, might as well get some more AC for your 1 handed fighting.
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The one-handed fighting isn't key at all, I was just wondering what the options are for it.
As for Swashbuckler: Some good points, but I want the character to be a thief - also, my goal here IS to make a Rogue.
As for Human/Luck feats: VERY good point! I know about those, but was forgetting about them for some reason. I don't suppose there's any way a Sylph could get them (Sylphs are, as a rule, supposed to be mostly-Human anyways)?
So, you've got 2 slightly different goals going on...
You want to be pure rogue and you want to be "The classic dashing, mischievous master thief with superhuman Dexterity and uncanny luck."
From your comments it sounds like the pure rogue levels are more important to you but I want to make sure before I respond.
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you could take the adopted trait and choose halfling to get the luck bonus to use with fate's favoured....then you could play an elf. As for the sorcery side, you could take the elf racial trait Envoy..gives you a few minor spells, nothing major(detect magic, read magic, comp. language and one other that escapes me atm).
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I'm pretty sure the Adopted trait is suffering from severe misreading. It lets you take racial traits - just like it's a trait - not what I'd call "racial FEATURES." Just because they're colloquially called "racial traits" since they were around before the traits system doesn't mean they're equivalent. People are, I suspect, playing deliberate ignorance with the word "trait" when they should know it's a different thing (just like the Occultist Arcanist Archetype and Spiritualist Investigator Archetype are entirely different and coexistent with the Occultist and Spiritualist occult classes).
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There are Racial Traits and there are Race Traits.
Racial Traits are listed in the Core Rulebook under the different Races, and there are Alternate Racial Traits in the APG again listed by Race in the beginning of the book.
Then there are Race Traits in the same book near the end under the new rules section.
I don't know if someone made mistakes later on in usage, but when Traits were introduced in the APG, Racial Traits and Race Traits were separate and distinct. The distinction has been listed in these forums and discussed many times.
Edit:
The Adopted trait is also in that same book, and clearly indicates that you are allowed to choose a Race Trait from the adoptive parents' race. It does not allow a different Racial Trait.
There is no colloquialism here. These are distinct and technical terms from the APG, following what was initiated in the Core Rulebook.
ahh the rogue Rogue fallacy.
Just because you want to make a rogue doesn't mean you have to use the Rogue class to do it. After dex to damage, what class features does the Rogue have to make your rogue all rougey?
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There are Racial Traits and there are Race Traits.
I still like my solution, which is to refer to them as Racial FEATURES - like, as in analogous but parallel to "Class Features."
ahh the rogue Rogue fallacy.
Just because you want to make a rogue doesn't mean you have to use the Rogue class to do it. After dex to damage, what class features does the Rogue have to make your rogue all rougey?
Sneak Attack? 8+ skill points/level? The long list of class skills? The many distinctive Archetypes? Evasion and Uncanny dodge? ROGUE TALENTS? The whole bit, really.
Don't tell me you posted here just to start an old fight - and especially give me a break with "fallacy," those things are like apps: There's one for everything now, and they're mostly used as a substitute for individual thought.
Sneak Attack?
Available at functionally 2 rogue levels per feat, makes it really easy to add a little something to the batch. A level of swashbuckler is very nice, lets you opportune parry and riposte, which can substitute for your armor class with combat reflexes, and land you an extra sneak attack on occasion, and make you a much less tempting target.
8+ skill points/level?
Nice but not always neccesary.
I have a sorcerer with an absurd diplomacy. I have a druid scout with a 14 int, fast learner, and the well rounded selection of skills that come with it. The sorcerer has made more skill checks. Skills have greatly diminishing returns with regards to their number. You first two skills are diplomacy and perception. After that there's linguistics
by the time you get around to your 9th or 10th skillpoint you're picking the 9th or 10th choice for useful skill , which isn't nearly as useful as your first choice.
The long list of class skills?
Gives you the full benefit at level 1.
The many distinctive Archetypes?
Evasion and Uncanny dodge?
ROGUE TALENTS?
Best traded for feats. Most of them are pretty bad. Which rogue talents make your character do what you want them to do?
There's one for everything now, and they're mostly used as a substitute for individual thought.
Says the person that wants a rogue and automatically locks in to a pure Rogue...
I don't see the classes the way you do. Yes, obviously something's wrong with me....
There is something wrong with accusing other posters of unoriginal thinking for telling you to think outside of the box.
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My point is that your contributions to this thread are not constructive. Don't tell me not to play a Rogue just because you somehow can't make a good one.
I'm pretty sure BNW knows how to make a decent rogue, I believe he's just pointing out that a character doesn't need levels in rogue to be a good rogue, and that other classes may help realize your concept better.
I was talking specifically about your throwing "fallacy" at me.
My point is that your contributions to this thread are not constructive. Don't tell me not to play a Rogue just because you somehow can't make a good one.
If you want constructive try not tearing down the people you're talking to.
...and we're back on track. Circling Mongoose and Cany Tumble combine to give you a lot of sneak attacks. It is pretty feat intensive so I would go with the Swashbuckler archetype for the extra combat feat and bonus to acrobatics.
I know its not pathfinder but I played a half-fiend rogue in 3.5 that was heller fun. She wasn't combat oriented, much more of a thief and all about hoarding magic items, when I did get into fights she had improved nat attack bite for some vicious throat damage. That was a crazy fun time.
I just wanted to say kudos for not misspelling Rogue in the title.
It's refreshing to not have to open up with a makeup joke. :-)
Name-dropping Archetypes, feats, and obscure Rogue Talents interests me, though!
Ok, just name-dropping then :
Half-orc city-raised + sacred tatoo + Fate's favoredThug archetype + Enforcer + whip mastery feat chain
Power Attack, Lunge and Quickdraw
whip and shortbow + tangleshot arrows
Enjoy! (or not...)
I'm interested in making a Rogue (non-Core, so obviously Unchained). I know just what sort of Rogue I want to be, too: The classic dashing, mischievous master thief with superhuman Dexterity and uncanny luck.
I will probably be taking the Fate's Favored trait.
I know you said you'd prefer to be an elf/sylph/that sort of thing, but I'll vote Half-Orc in this case, with some roleplay suggestions and some crunch for you to look up.
First, Half-orcs get sacred tattoo, as Djelai noted. This means you get a tatto that grants +1 to all your saves - as a luck bonus. Fate's Favored adds a +1 to that, so with one alternate racial trait and a single Race trait, you've gotten +2 to all your saves.
Roleplay-wise, I think a dashing half-orc that's trying to overcome what people assume about him is a GREAT idea. Take the classic dashing hero look: the broad-brimmed hat with a single white feather, the long coat over leather armor, the good looks... Now, make it a half-orc: give that face tusks and an intentionally-grown stubble; give him a big, tilted grin; give him a more tall and muscular build and some greyish-greenish skin. Or better yet, make the half-orc a woman, offering a wink as she tugs down on the hat. Finally, add some tattoos curling up this character's arm or back, and make sure they get to talk about the significance of the tattoo at some point.
Oh, and of COURSE this half-orc uses a sword of some sort. Well, okay, there's a rugged charm to using a a light mace or a machete, so I guess that's up to you.
Also, half-orcs can take human luck feats because they count as humans AND orcs for the purpose of all things including taking feats. Nudge nudge.
Other ideas:
If you want a little more combat focus without sacrificing much, consider the Scout archetype. This gets you the ability to charge and deal sneak attack damage. That's useful.
Alternatively, if you want to focus on the cunning and charm of the rogue, consider the Spy or Investigator archetypes. You lose trapfinding with both, but they focus on social encounters.
Planning on using daggers? Check out the Knife Master archetype.
Want to do magic? Screw Minor and Major magic; instead, check out the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. You slow down sneak attack and are reduced to 4 skill points a level, but you get all the other benefits of Rogue AND 6th level spellcasting off the Wizard spell list. Wizard spells provide you with a TON of flexibility: invisibility, mage hand to tamper with objects from afar, offensive buffs like heroism, defensive buffs like stoneskin... It favors an intelligent character, obviously, so this is good if you want to be a cunning toolbox character that uses magic in conjunction with rogue skills to handle most any situation, be they traps or enemies or impossibly high walls.
Alternatively, if you want to try out Variant Multiclassing, you can take all your levels of Rogue and give up a few feats along the way to get VMC Magus. This gets you the Magus Arcane Pool and their special abilities and such - and again, you still get 8 skill points and all the rogue abilities; what you DO lose is every other normal feat. But Rogues can get certain feats via their Rogue talent, so that's a nice way to make up for that.
Oh, and obviously play Unchained Rogue if your group allows it. It's SOOO much better than the chained version.
Name-dropping Archetypes, feats, and obscure Rogue Talents interests me, though!
Rake archetype: If you want to feint, this one is quite nice. Sacrificing a sneak d6 to demoralize can be useful to protect yourself (effectively +2 AC vs. that foe) and gives an allied caster an easier time (-2 on saves hurt).
Scout archetype: I have a slight aversion against that one, because it's so overused here in the forums (and so unroguish), but it's still an effective archetype and stacks with rake, for example. It works best if you skip two-weapon fighting and don't rely on feint too much. So there is not much synergy with rake, they rather complement each other.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Can be powerful, especially at the beginning, but don't rely too much on it. Taking the improved version is already debatable, don't bother with the 'greater' one.
Combat Expertise: An annoying feat tax, given combat rogue's few feats (despite combat trick rogue talent), make sure you unlock multiple interesting paths (feint, dirty trick) with it. If you don't go for feint, consider Dirty Fighting as a replacement.
Improved Feint etc.: Depending on the foe, this can be a game winner. Twinned Feint is basically the Cleave of rogues...
Improved Dirty Trick etc.: Again, depends on the foe - and additional on the GM. If they allow you to blind foes all day, you are well off. Quick Dirty Trick comes late but works well with two-weapon fighting.
Extra Rogue Talent can be nice to speed things up, but don't speed it up so much that you don't have anything good left at level 8 (or 6). The next wave of interesting stuff comes as late as level 10.
Don't waste your time with Weapon Focus, Power Attack and the other usual martial stuff - a rogue rather weakens their foe instead of boosting themselves.
When it comes to rogue talents, my favourite is magic. Minor magic is basically a tax but can be nice for RP and a few out of combat challenges. Major magic is great, unlocking shield, vanish and a few other goodies. Gloom magic and its greater version can be added later for even more sneak attack. Everything related to casting needs some Int, but given that you likely bothered with Combat Expertise anyway, this shouldn't be a problem. At level 10, hunter's surprise is yet another goodie.
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Thank you, thank you. Those last two were particularly helpful. Definitely gives me some things to think about.
This is for Pathfinder Society, by the way, just to be clear.
I had considered a Half-Orc concept for a bit, but then I channeled it into an Investigator (with a Sacred Tattoo) I've got now, so that may feel too similar if I make a Half-Orc Rogue (that, and the race suits me the least of about just about all of them) - I may make a Human, now though! Sylphs still have some very cool, Rogue-appropriate options, and I don't have any of them yet...so much to consider.
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So I have realized since starting this thread that many of my ideas about this have actually already gone into my Half-Orc Investigator, who does indeed have the Fortune's Favored trait and the Sacred Tattoo racial feature, and being half-Human, will be able to take Human luck feats. So that's the hole "lucky" thing taken care of - freeing my hypothetical Rogue up to be a debonair thief of transcendent skill, and, indeed, a Sylph!
Actually just created a Sylph rogue. I am going to use a Mist Assassin build with the racial feat cloud gazer. I took Counterfeit Mage, for the free action wand use, but haven't decided if I'm going to Major Magic talent Obscuring Mist or wand it. I'm going Archery with it, and being able to fly at 9th level will make me even harder to find in the mist. I probably won't go full archer, stopping at Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid, leaving the rest of my fears for utility and melee when the mist is impractical
I would have a look at Investigator. If you want rogue, there is an archetype that trades away some stuff for some vancian casting.
If still too unrogue like, consider the magic talents and get a couple of amazing spells. Like river whip..sneak attack on a touch AC.