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Fighting feat starvation


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

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Silver Crusade

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Naoki00 wrote:


I really don't want to toot my own horn like this

TOOOOOOOT :D

You're referring to this piece of work. I'd seen it.Since you're specifically changing one class, as opposed to all classes, I don't think it's that similar. But you're asking nicely so sure, I'll give my thoughts on your work in your own thread

Bitter Lily, your question has been answered. Sorry I missed it before. Indeed, as Riuken said, feat devaluation is the reason.
With so many extra feats, the one extra feat for humans becomes less valuable, but I thought it too extreme to double their bonus. Hence the bonus trait.

As to your other suggestion. A specific list would have to be very well put together. I would resent it to be only made up of low power feats, because some very powerful feats add a lot of flavour. But since other very powerful feats don't add flavour at all, this could easily benefit those characters whose concept aligns with what a dev tried to create over those characters whose concept is original, and requires boring feats to achieve. As such, I feel that creating a specific list carries the danger of dampening creativity.

Ryan Freire,
I think you're on a right track, there. Could you think of a few examples? I'll also start thinking about a more in depth solution than just adding more feats. Maybe tomorrow's nightshift ;)


Viondar wrote:
Naoki00 wrote:


I really don't want to toot my own horn like this

TOOOOOOOT :D

You're referring to this piece of work. I'd seen it.Since you're specifically changing one class, as opposed to all classes, I don't think it's that similar. But you're asking nicely so sure, I'll give my thoughts on your work in your own thread

Bitter Lily, your question has been answered. Sorry I missed it before. Indeed, as Riuken said, feat devaluation is the reason.
With so many extra feats, the one extra feat for humans becomes less valuable, but I thought it too extreme to double their bonus. Hence the bonus trait.

As to your other suggestion. A specific list would have to be very well put together. I would resent it to be only made up of low power feats, because some very powerful feats add a lot of flavour. But since other very powerful feats don't add flavour at all, this could easily benefit those characters whose concept aligns with what a dev tried to create over those characters whose concept is original, and requires boring feats to achieve. As such, I feel that creating a specific list carries the danger of dampening creativity.

Ryan Freire,
I think you're on a right track, there. Could you think of a few examples? I'll also start thinking about a more in depth solution than just adding more feats. Maybe tomorrow's nightshift ;)

Thank you good sir XD I feel bad plugging my own stuff, but since I was trying to do something similar, if only for the one class, I thought it might be at least a relevant piece of help. At least for combat feats in particular the idea of scaling feats is very appealing to me, I tend to optimize for games just because I do always feel like I HAVE to pick "this feat is the best for this combat style, I can't pass it up even though I want to better flavor my character beyond that". I'm definitely keeping an eye on this discussion myself because I would love to see what kind of ideas it results in.

Silver Crusade

Well! as promised, I'll give another suggestion for the feat problem. I'll try to keep it neatly in this thread, but if no-one left to be bothered to look, I'll make a new thread. Let's see how it goes.

I've made a small setup to a better fix. It would still need a lot of work, because frankly, all feats need to be checked. But it's a start. Also, what I don't like about it as it is, is that a higher level character suddenly gets everything at once when selecting a feat chain. But then again, that's the same with the vigilante talents.

Now, without further ado:

Integral feat fix

Basics
All creatures, at level 1, gain the following feats:
agile manoeuvres (its use is optional)
combat expertise
craft magic items (see new feats, below)
deadly aim
piranha strike
power attack
precise attack (see new feats, below)
weapon finesse

Creatures still need to meet the feat requirements to actually make use of these feats.

A general adjustment to all feats
Any feat that has another feat as its requirement, only retains that requirement if the use of the other feat is expressly used in its description. For example, precise shot no longer has point blank shot as a prerequisite, but dazzling display still requires weapon focus. Another example: arcane armor mastery still requires arcane armor training, for the bonus to be replaced, but does not require medium armor proficiency.

New feats
Craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 1
This feat allows you to emulate any craft item feat for which you have the prerequisites, but at lesser skill. Items you create with craft magic item have a creation cost equal to their market price, and not half market price, like when you have the proper feat.

Improved craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 7
This feat works exactly like craft magic item, except that the creation cost is equal to eighty percent of market value.

Precise attack
Requirements: BAB +1, int 13
You may sacrifice damage for increased accuracy when attacking with a weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike that deals damage and has a damage bonus coming from your own prowess, like ability score bonus, weapon specialization or weapon training, for example, but not a bonus from a spell or weapon enhancement. Morale bonuses and competence bonuses specifically affect ones capabilities, and are as such considered your own prowess. For each +2 damage bonus you sacrifice, you gain +1 bonus to hit, you may gain a maximum bonus to hit equal to 1 plus 1 per 4 points of your base attack bonus, to a maximum of +6 at BAB +20. If your attack gains more than the regular bonus from your ability score, like when you fight with a two handed weapon, the sacrifice cost increases with the same percentage. The same is not true in reverse when using an attack that gains less than the usual bonus, like when attacking with an off-hand weapon. You may choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. You may not use this feat when you’re under the effects of power attack, piranha strike, or deadly aim, and you may not use any of those feats if you’re under the effects of precise attack.

Move opponent
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved bull rush, greater bull rush, improved reposition, greater reposition, improved drag, greater drag, improved overrun, and greater overrun feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Check opponent
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved grapple, greater grapple, improved trip, greater trip, improved uncivilized tactics, and greater uncivilized tactics feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Attack opponent’s weapon
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved disarm, greater disarm, improved sunder, and greater sunder feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Fight unfair
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved steal, greater steal, improved dirty trick, and greater dirty trick feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Feat chains

Feat chains are feats that build on each other in a direct line, like improved two weapon fighting builds on two weapon fighting, or Archon diversion builds on Archon style. Once you take the feat at the base of a feat chain, you’ll get the other feats in the chain as described below.

All style feats grant their improved versions as soon as you meet the requirements.

Weapon focus grants weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, and greater weapon specialization in the selected weapon as soon as you would normally be able to select those feats. For example, a warpriest (who would require his bonus feats to take these feats) would get them at levels 6,9,12 whereas a fighter would get them at level 4,8,12.

Spell focus grants greater spell focus in the selected school at caster level 8

Spell penetration grants greater spell penetration at caster level 8

Skald’s vigour grants greater skald’s vigour as soon as its prerequisite is met.


Viondar wrote:

Well! as promised, I'll give another suggestion for the feat problem. I'll try to keep it neatly in this thread, but if no-one left to be bothered to look, I'll make a new thread. Let's see how it goes.

I've made a small setup to a better fix. It would still need a lot of work, because frankly, all feats need to be checked. But it's a start. Also, what I don't like about it as it is, is that a higher level character suddenly gets everything at once when selecting a feat chain. But then again, that's the same with the vigilante talents.

Now, without further ado:

Integral feat fix

Basics
All creatures, at level 1, gain the following feats:
agile manoeuvres (its use is optional)
combat expertise
craft magic items (see new feats, below)
deadly aim
piranha strike
power attack
precise attack (see new feats, below)
weapon finesse

Creatures still need to meet the feat requirements to actually make use of these feats.

A general adjustment to all feats
Any feat that has another feat as its requirement, only retains that requirement if the use of the other feat is expressly used in its description. For example, precise shot no longer has point blank shot as a prerequisite, but dazzling display still requires weapon focus. Another example: arcane armor mastery still requires arcane armor training, for the bonus to be replaced, but does not require medium armor proficiency.

New feats
Craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 1
This feat allows you to emulate any craft item feat for which you have the prerequisites, but at lesser skill. Items you create with craft magic item have a creation cost equal to their market price, and not half market price, like when you have the proper feat.

Improved craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 7
This feat works exactly like craft magic item, except that the creation cost is equal to eighty percent of market value.

Precise attack
Requirements: BAB +1, int 13
You may sacrifice damage for increased accuracy when attacking with a...

I can agree with almost everything here, it's not as though it would be necessarily unreasonable considering how feats work currently. I want to say that the Move Opponent and similar ideas might LOOK a bit much, but to be honest it's hard to really say. The biggest difference would be that certainly would encourage more use of those maneuvers as a whole. It does have a bit of a double edged sword though, if enemies ALSO follow these rules it effectively means that using such maneuvers will rarely if ever in some cases I'm sure, provoke an attack of opportunity from the player OR an opponent using them. This might be fine, but I can think of some moments when it could be frustrating too that something no longer provokes when a foolish enemy goes to try something. Maybe try having it as a "pick 2-3" of them sorta thing in a playtest to see how it turns out? I can imagine it being painful at low levels to miss out on all those free AOOs that could be flavorful in combat.

Precise attack seems a small bit redundant for 'most' builds I think, but I can see it being useful in builds revolving around some form of "hit as much as possible" tactic. Poisoner or sneak attack maybe? Other than that I have some issues seeing it as being used much, it's not THAT hard to build an enormous attack bonus with some classes after all, so more damage is always better because the best CC is death. Conversely the classes that would value a good bonus to hit already suffer from low damage output on a regular basis already. Especially when you add in that the Furious Focus feat exists I don't know how much it's worth losing so much raw damage potential to a lot of classes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm coming into this late, but I'm surprised no one suggested the rather popular feat tax article from The World is Square. I learned about it from these very boards and we've incorporated it into our game with rousing success.

And contrary to what you may initially think, it's actually caused our characters to pick up utility and fun feats that they don't normally ever fit in, rather than accelerating into powerful build options.

I wholeheartedly endorse the idea and can say that after using it, it's been extremely positive.


I agree with Gulthor, that is a popular, easy and effective fix.

Should you still be concerned about flexibility, which is understandable, also give the Barroom Brawler feat for free to everybody.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Pfffft!

[soapbox time]

Seems to me that y'all want to play a different game, not Pathfinder. Fine. Go play D&D 4e or 5e.

Either that, or you want to radically homebrew Pathfinder to make your house version of PF+. Fine. Lots of folks do that already.

The thing about the "feat starvation" phenomena is that it forces you to make choices. Double the number of feats, or pare down feat chains to effectively multiply your choices, and yeah, you can choose a lot more stuff.

But the thing with the existing PF feat system is that it makes every PC make tough choices. Optimize or diversify? Do one thing a lot better, or several things a bit better. That's one of the beautiful features of a highly complex set of extremely diverse feats.

Now, it seems perfectly justifiable to argue about the relative merits of a given feats. Many feats are highly-powered and could be said to be overpowered, while many other feats are distinctly sub-optimal. Fine. Knowing that, you can make your PC as optimized as you like, or as humble and flavorful as you like.

I bet the Paizo team would do a *lot* of things differently if they could go back to square one and start the pathfinderizing process over again. But they can't, for so many reasons.

Discussions like this one are fine, as long as everyone realizes what you're really talking about: extensively re-engineering the PF system for a homebrew PF+ version. Otherwise, it just looks like lamenting that you can't squeeze even more toys into your already overfull toybox.

[/soapbox time]


Havoq wrote:

Claxon, I wonder if you feel the same way about caster feats - Spell Specialization, Spell Penetration, etc.

The prereq for Greater Spell Focus is Spell Focus.. becomes two for one.

Nope. But I will honestly say I don't like 9th level spell casting classes in Pathfinder and would actually prefer a game in which they (and the powers they have) didn't exist. I already ban things like Dazing Spell metamagic and Spell Perfection in my games.

If I made other adjustments to caster classes I might consider combining some feats.But as it sits Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus are both individually worth the feat cost because raising the DC of your spells is a pretty big deal.

Also, for full progression spell casters they rarely have things they need to spend their feats on to fulfill a concept, so I'm unsympathetic towards those classes.


bitter lily wrote:

This is where I come in, asking for a specific list of feats that would be options for the "extras." Feats that would lead to the next -- put the first on the list, but not the second (or third). Mostly, I'd like to see feats that add color rather than optimization on this list. But what feats?

And since no one answered me, I'll ask again: Why give some classes (and humans, of all things) an extra bennie to "balance" them when the variant applies to all classes & races equally?

I don't have a list to give you, but as you can probably see from my earlier posts this is basically what I was suggesting.

Giving away feats that aren't combat related to make a character more interesting. It would take time to develop such a list but could be done.

I think a lot of the achievement feats, like Chainbreaker, could be good candidates. In this example it would be combat relevant, but because its only useful against slave owners/traders its very limited in scope so I would be okay with it.


Viondar wrote:

Well! as promised, I'll give another suggestion for the feat problem. I'll try to keep it neatly in this thread, but if no-one left to be bothered to look, I'll make a new thread. Let's see how it goes.

I've made a small setup to a better fix. It would still need a lot of work, because frankly, all feats need to be checked. But it's a start. Also, what I don't like about it as it is, is that a higher level character suddenly gets everything at once when selecting a feat chain. But then again, that's the same with the vigilante talents.

Now, without further ado:

Integral feat fix

Basics
All creatures, at level 1, gain the following feats:
agile manoeuvres (its use is optional)
combat expertise
craft magic items (see new feats, below)
deadly aim
piranha strike
power attack
precise attack (see new feats, below)
weapon finesse

Creatures still need to meet the feat requirements to actually make use of these feats.

A general adjustment to all feats
Any feat that has another feat as its requirement, only retains that requirement if the use of the other feat is expressly used in its description. For example, precise shot no longer has point blank shot as a prerequisite, but dazzling display still requires weapon focus. Another example: arcane armor mastery still requires arcane armor training, for the bonus to be replaced, but does not require medium armor proficiency.

New feats
Craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 1
This feat allows you to emulate any craft item feat for which you have the prerequisites, but at lesser skill. Items you create with craft magic item have a creation cost equal to their market price, and not half market price, like when you have the proper feat.

Improved craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 7
This feat works exactly like craft magic item, except that the creation cost is equal to eighty percent of market value.

Precise attack
Requirements: BAB +1, int 13
You may sacrifice damage for increased accuracy when attacking with a...

I did something similar, except I removed combat expertise as a prereq for (almost) every feat. I think There was like one or two where I thought it was appropriate and the requirement wasn't removed.

I combined Two Fighting feats into one feat that upgrades at appropriate BAB. I combined Vital Strike chain into 1 feat that upgrades with BAB. I combined Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Dreadful Carnage into one feat that improves with BAB. But, there is the caveat that you can only choose one feat chain for free.

I think Agile Maneuvers is a fair one to give away for free. I don't think piranha strike, power attack, or deadly aim should be given for free, but at least by giving them all you have made it equal for the different combat styles.

Weapon finesse....there are some classes that get this for free. What do you do to make up for that? Personally this is also another one I'm not keen on giving away for free but I understand where you're coming from and it's not a terrible decision.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wheldrake wrote:

Pfffft!

[soapbox time]

Seems to me that y'all want to play a different game, not Pathfinder. Fine. Go play D&D 4e or 5e.

Either that, or you want to radically homebrew Pathfinder to make your house version of PF+. Fine. Lots of folks do that already.

The thing about the "feat starvation" phenomena is that it forces you to make choices. Double the number of feats, or pare down feat chains to effectively multiply your choices, and yeah, you can choose a lot more stuff.

But the thing with the existing PF feat system is that it makes every PC make tough choices. Optimize or diversify? Do one thing a lot better, or several things a bit better. That's one of the beautiful features of a highly complex set of extremely diverse feats.

Now, it seems perfectly justifiable to argue about the relative merits of a given feats. Many feats are highly-powered and could be said to be overpowered, while many other feats are distinctly sub-optimal. Fine. Knowing that, you can make your PC as optimized as you like, or as humble and flavorful as you like.

I bet the Paizo team would do a *lot* of things differently if they could go back to square one and start the pathfinderizing process over again. But they can't, for so many reasons.

Discussions like this one are fine, as long as everyone realizes what you're really talking about: extensively re-engineering the PF system for a homebrew PF+ version. Otherwise, it just looks like lamenting that you can't squeeze even more toys into your already overfull toybox.

[/soapbox time]

I think one of the great strengths of 3.X is how modular and customizable it is. Pathfinder itself is one giant set of houserules for the 3.5 system. I enjoyed 4E, but WotC dropped it, it had terrible adventure support, excessively long combats, and I've no interest in 5E. PF is generally elegant with outstanding Adventure Paths (the real/only reason we're here), but that doesn't mean that we're not going to tweak it for our home table.

Our current game incorporates the above feat tax link (which enemies get to enjoy as well, of course), Background Skills from Unchained, Automatic Bonus Progression, reverts several pieces of errata (Crane Wing and Scarred Witch Doctor), has a few homebrew archetypes, has a rebuilt Unchained Monk that finds itself in between the Unchained and Classic Monk but better than either without being broken (in my opinion), a couple very minor tweaks for fighter (4+ Int skill points, a few more class skills, 3.5's Mettle at level 10, favored Reflex save), and adds Con score to hit points (enemies too), and a couple changes to skills (Climb, Jump, Swim are all now Athletics (Str), Fly is part of Acrobatics, Dungeoneering is a background skill, and Knowledge [Occult] is a new skill that identifies aberrations and psychic phenomena).

Each of those is small on their own, but collectively they make a huge change. But it's still PF. It's definitely not vanilla PF, and I'm sure some groups would hate our house rules or find them unnecessary. That's fine. We like it. And if anything, it seems to make things a little *harder* rather than easier, or at least the net effect is neutral. Many would say that if the net result is neutral, why not just play it straight? To which my answer is that we find it more fun and engaging.

Taking Power Attack is not a fun or meaningful choice. Taking Point Blank so that you can get Precise isn't fun, either. Taking Deadly Aim isn't a choice. *Not* taking them is wrong, meaning all other choices are trap choices. So we get rid of them.

Now our drunken barbarian is taking Quick Draw as his level 1 feat so that he can draw his booze as a free action, and allowed me to make him VMC in an unknown class to represent an amnesia backstory. And thanks to getting Power Attack and extra hit points, he feels safe and comfortable doing that.

That's a big win at our table.


Gulthor wrote:
That's a big win at our table.

Mind if I ask you to share your homebrewed monk? I like all of your rules so far so I'm confident it will be good


D@rK-SePHiRoTH- wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
That's a big win at our table.
Mind if I ask you to share your homebrewed monk? I like all of your rules so far so I'm confident it will be good

Sure, a bit off-topic, but we are in the Homebrew forum.

Chained/Unchained Monk Combo/Rework

I'll put some of my design decisions in a spoiler so as to not distract from the main discussion.

Spoiler:
Here's the breakdown of what is changed from the Monk, the Unchained Monk, and the reasons why I felt such a change was needed:

The Core Monk has a lot of problems - the core issue being that it wants to be a frontline fighter, but really isn't capable of performing that task. This was recognized by Paizo and an attempt to address it was made with the release of the Unchained Monk, but unfortunately the UC Monk has its share of problems as well. The biggest of these is that while mostly superior, the UC Monk is unable to utilize most of the Monk's archetypes, which actually means that Core Monks of certain archetypes and builds still outperform the UC Monk, and in the meantime, the non-optimized versions of the Monk continue to underperform quite spectacularly. Additionally, while bumping the Monk to d10 and full BAB (an outstanding change), the UC Monk loses Monk's iconic "good all saves", which offers a difference of between + 2 and + 6 to Will depending on level; considering that a paladin of comparable level has this degree of bonus on ALL saves, the nerf seems unnecessary.

The UC Monk also continues to have problems with accuracy on its attacks when compared to other martial frontliners, despite the bump to BAB: fighters have weapon training, barbarians have rage, paladins have smite, slayers have studied target, rangers have favored enemy, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. The other martials all have ways of improving their accuracy when compared to the monk, but there's a good reason for that: the fear of the Monk's 2d10 damage unarmed strike at level 20. The Monk's damage has the potential of being so outrageous that it is not allowed to get an accuracy bump.

Fortunately, there's a simple fix for this problem: a fixed damage die, and a change to ki strike.

Both iterations of the Monk increase unarmed strike damage at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. Additionally, both iterations of the monk gain the thematic ki strike feature, which allows the monk to overcome different types of damage reduction with their unarmed strikes, occurring at levels close to unarmed strike damage increases (or actually concurring with them.)

My version of the monk combines these features, and rather than increasing the monk's damage die, provides a + 1 bonus to hit and damage every 4 levels with their unarmed strikes. At 4th, this means that the monk's new d6+1 deals the same amount of damage as a d8 on average. At 8th, the d6+2 averages the same as a d10. At 12th, the monk sees a small damage loss compared to 2d6, but the increased accuracy on attacks is worth it. The same holds true as the gap widens further at 16th and especially 20th level. However, the Monk can still keep up with the AC race at the same pace as other frontliners, which is extremely necessary.

Getting archetypes online is trickier, but also proves simple enough in practice. The UC Monk receives a large number of ki powers (at 4th level and every 2 levels thereafter), including gaining access to a number of exciting and powerful new abilities to replace the often underwhelming base monk ki powers.

The problem is that archetypes mostly touch on these core powers, so my version of the monk bakes these Core ki powers back in, but still offers the ability to pick up some of the cooler new ones, though at a later and much-reduced rate (one @ 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.) This technically offers more ki powers in total (10 instead of 9), but the quality and choice is much lower than that of the UC Monk. It is, however, still an incredible bump compared to the Core Monk, so this seems to be a nice middle-of-the-road change.

The UC Monk also gets another incredible new combat option in the form of style strikes. Style strikes are great, thematic, potent, impactful abilities - and that makes them a good place to take another hit for this homebrew version of the monk. This new homebrew is certainly more powerful than the Core Monk while simultaneously fixing problems with the UC Monk, so something's gotta' give. Style Strikes are a nice thing that the Core Monk never had, so instead of getting a new strike at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th, my homebrew Monk "only" gets them at 5th, 10th, and 20th (while retaining the improved style strike feature at 15), for a nice 5, 10, 15, 20 symmetry.

This change also advances another goal of my rework: reducing the choice overload of the new UC Monk. Seriously, the new UC Monk has the player making so many choices. WAY too many choices. You get a feat at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th on top of your regular feats at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th. You get a ki power at 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th. You get style strikes at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.

That's not just crazy, it's obnoxious. To that end, I wanted to make one final change. Something that Paizo has done for a lot of classes that I personally love is rolling together suites of abilities that a character gets as a result of a single choice. Sorcerer Bloodlines, Oracle Mysteries, and so on.

It seemed to me that the Monk had an opportunity here in Style feats. Most Styles are extremely thematic, rely on unarmed strike, and many of them call to Wuxia martial arts: Mantis Style, Panther Style, Crane Style, and so on.

What if, instead of getting a bunch of vanilla feats at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th, the Monk could choose one of these styles and get access to them faster than anyone else? It would make sense, reduce choice overload, drop the number of "things" that the monk got, and just be really cool and thematic.

So, I made it into a simple archetype: The Wuxia Monk

Martial Styles simply give the Monk early access to most of the style feat chains and either a prerequisite feat or a thematically-appropriate feat at 1st level. The monk loses out on a couple of feats (the 14th and 18th), but gets their 6th and 10th level bonus feats each 2 levels sooner. Additionally, while the choices are effectively made for them as part of a suite, they also tend to be a bit more potent than the baseline feats. And they're just really cool. This is probably my single favorite thing in the whole revision.

Lastly, I gave Monks one final ability: Guided Hand. Using the World is Square feat tax variant immediately allows the Monk to use Dex instead of Strength on attack rolls if desired, which is a nice plus. It opens the Monk character fantasy to different kinds of martial artists, and that's always a good thing. However, one classic style of martial artist still isn't supported: the Wise Old Master. Guided Hand is meant for those characters. For most characters, it's a fluff ability, but it also enables certain character fantasies that were previously very hard to realize (and the Kirin Style supports this concept even further.) Strength is still the superior choice, so I'm happy to provide the option.

So take a look, compare it to the Core and Unchained Monks, see what you think.

It's certainly stronger than Core, and while it's weaker than UC in some ways, it instead finishes the job that UC started and (in my opinion) failed at.


Gulthor wrote:

I'm coming into this late, but I'm surprised no one suggested the rather popular feat tax article from The World is Square. I learned about it from these very boards and we've incorporated it into our game with rousing success.

And contrary to what you may initially think, it's actually caused our characters to pick up utility and fun feats that they don't normally ever fit in, rather than accelerating into powerful build options.

I wholeheartedly endorse the idea and can say that after using it, it's been extremely positive.

Hey I remember seeing this article a while ago yeah! I couldn't remember where it was from though, and it does support the "rolled into one" concept feats as well so I have even less worries on those now myself lol.


Wheldrake wrote:

Pfffft!

[soapbox time]

Seems to me that y'all want to play a different game, not Pathfinder. Fine. Go play D&D 4e or 5e.

Either that, or you want to radically homebrew Pathfinder to make your house version of PF+. Fine. Lots of folks do that already.

The thing about the "feat starvation" phenomena is that it forces you to make choices. Double the number of feats, or pare down feat chains to effectively multiply your choices, and yeah, you can choose a lot more stuff.

But the thing with the existing PF feat system is that it makes every PC make tough choices. Optimize or diversify? Do one thing a lot better, or several things a bit better. That's one of the beautiful features of a highly complex set of extremely diverse feats.

Now, it seems perfectly justifiable to argue about the relative merits of a given feats. Many feats are highly-powered and could be said to be overpowered, while many other feats are distinctly sub-optimal. Fine. Knowing that, you can make your PC as optimized as you like, or as humble and flavorful as you like.

I bet the Paizo team would do a *lot* of things differently if they could go back to square one and start the pathfinderizing process over again. But they can't, for so many reasons.

Discussions like this one are fine, as long as everyone realizes what you're really talking about: extensively re-engineering the PF system for a homebrew PF+ version. Otherwise, it just looks like lamenting that you can't squeeze even more toys into your already overfull toybox.

[/soapbox time]

I do agree in some ways with how you can see the idea in such a way, but I personally think it becomes a much greater issue when the sheer power of a small section of that "overfull" toybox can easily be called wasteful. Many feats or entire feat chains actively weaken a character significantly in comparison is others creating entire "trap" lines that seem fine, but are actually terrible choices. I think in a game where things are meant to evoke a character and ALSO be played with a certain level of assumed difficulty it can place that much more on the shoulders of the DM and the player. I mean the problem with feat diversity is both why we have such awesome flavorful options, but also why we have the "every character ever who does X will always pick the exact same feat lines" issue. Some are just too needed to make martial tactics work at the same level as other entire classes. This is partly the designers fault, and partly not, so as players and DMs it's up to us to find what fits best for our group and our playstyles, and thankfully the designers were smart enough to leave things open to being augmented as heavily, or as minimally as we would like.


Viondar's Integral feat fix, Basics:
Viondar wrote:

All creatures, at level 1, gain the following feats:

agile manoeuvres (its use is optional)
combat expertise
craft magic items (see new feats, below)
deadly aim
piranha strike
power attack
precise attack (see new feats, below)
weapon finesse

Creatures still need to meet the feat requirements to actually make use of these feats.

A general adjustment to all feats
Any feat that has another feat as its requirement, only retains that requirement if the use of the other feat is expressly used in its description. For example, precise shot no longer has point blank shot as a prerequisite, but dazzling display still requires weapon focus. Another example: arcane armor mastery still requires arcane armor training, for the bonus to be replaced, but does not require medium armor proficiency.

To make sure I understand: Precise Shot is not on your list, nor is Point-Blank Shot, but you can take either of them freely, depending on what you want for your character? (Assuming you otherwise qualify.)

Viondar's Integral feat fix, New feats:
Viondar wrote:

Craft magic item

Requirements: caster level 1
This feat allows you to emulate any craft item feat for which you have the prerequisites, but at lesser skill. Items you create with craft magic item have a creation cost equal to their market price, and not half market price, like when you have the proper feat.

Improved craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 7
This feat works exactly like craft magic item, except that the creation cost is equal to eighty percent of market value.

Precise attack
Requirements: BAB +1, int 13
You may sacrifice damage for increased accuracy when attacking with a weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike that deals damage and has a damage bonus coming from your own prowess, like ability score bonus, weapon specialization or weapon training, for example, but not a bonus from a spell or weapon enhancement. Morale bonuses and competence bonuses specifically affect ones capabilities, and are as such considered your own prowess. For each +2 damage bonus you sacrifice, you gain +1 bonus to hit, you may gain a maximum bonus to hit equal to 1 plus 1 per 4 points of your base attack bonus, to a maximum of +6 at BAB +20. If your attack gains more than the regular bonus from your ability score, like when you fight with a two handed weapon, the sacrifice cost increases with the same percentage. The same is not true in reverse when using an attack that gains less than the usual bonus, like when attacking with an off-hand weapon. You may choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. You may not use this feat when you’re under the effects of power attack, piranha strike, or deadly aim, and you may not use any of those feats if you’re under the effects of precise attack.

[...]

Is regular crafting for magic items still available? If not, does all crafting go to 100% of cost up through Caster Level 6, and then 80% automatically? If so, is it your intention that rods & staves would cost 80% of value as soon as you can craft them? (Since they require CL 9 & 11, respectively.) How did you pick CL 7 as the prereq?

I note that Piranha Strike isn't considered a new feat, and yet it's not in the PRD. Where is it from?

Otherwise, I'm having trouble this afternoon parsing your combat-related feats, sorry. My first reaction, however, is to agree that Precise Attack is too wimpy to bother including. I think that the ratio should be reversed; giving up a +1 hard-to-get damage bonus should be worth +2 to hit.

Viondar's Integral feat fix, Feat chains:
Viondar wrote:

Feat chains are feats that build on each other in a direct line, like improved two weapon fighting builds on two weapon fighting, or Archon diversion builds on Archon style. Once you take the feat at the base of a feat chain, you’ll get the other feats in the chain as described below.

All style feats grant their improved versions as soon as you meet the requirements.

Weapon focus grants weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, and greater weapon specialization in the selected weapon as soon as you would normally be able to select those feats. For example, a warpriest (who would require his bonus feats to take these feats) would get them at levels 6,9,12 whereas a fighter would get them at level 4,8,12.

Spell focus grants greater spell focus in the selected school at caster level 8

Spell penetration grants greater spell penetration at caster level 8

Skald’s vigour grants greater skald’s vigour as soon as its prerequisite is met.

I like folding the greater feat into the lesser; why did you pick CL 8 for the Spell... feats?

I don't like your formula on the fighter/warpriest feats; it's clutzy and hard to calculate. Better just to go with the Warpriest version, since that's the more conservative one, and label the feats with their specific level requirement. Or give them a BAB requirement, even better, since that would be broader.

Silver Crusade

Hey all,

I've been doing other stuff for awhile, so it took me some time to return to this thread.

Thanks to everyone for their input!!

In the end I decided to go let go of the feat chains altogether, but keep the rest. Like this.

Viondar wrote:

Basics
All creatures, at level 1, gain the following feats:
agile manoeuvres (its use is optional)
combat expertise
craft magic items (see new feats, below)
deadly aim
piranha strike
power attack
precise attack (see new feats, below)
weapon finesse

Creatures still need to meet the feat requirements to actually make use of these feats.

A general adjustment to all feats
Any feat that has another feat as its requirement, only retains that requirement if the use of the other feat is expressly used in its description. For example, precise shot no longer has point blank shot as a prerequisite, but dazzling display still requires weapon focus. Another example: arcane armor mastery still requires arcane armor training, for the bonus to be replaced, but does not require medium armor proficiency.

New feats
Craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 1
This feat allows you to emulate any craft item feat for which you have the prerequisites, but at lesser skill. Items you create with craft magic item have a creation cost equal to their market price, and not half market price, like when you have the proper feat.

Improved craft magic item
Requirements: caster level 7
This feat works exactly like craft magic item, except that the creation cost is equal to eighty percent of market value.

Precise attack
Requirements: BAB +1, int 13
You may sacrifice damage for increased accuracy when attacking with a weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike that deals damage and has a damage bonus coming from your own prowess, like ability score bonus, weapon specialization or weapon training, for example, but not a bonus from a spell or weapon enhancement. Morale bonuses and competence bonuses specifically affect ones capabilities, and are as such considered your own prowess. For each +2 damage bonus you sacrifice, you gain +1 bonus to hit, you may gain a maximum bonus to hit equal to 1 plus 1 per 4 points of your base attack bonus, to a maximum of +6 at BAB +20. If your attack gains more than the regular bonus from your ability score, like when you fight with a two handed weapon, the sacrifice cost increases with the same percentage. The same is not true in reverse when using an attack that gains less than the usual bonus, like when attacking with an off-hand weapon. You may choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. You may not use this feat when you’re under the effects of power attack, piranha strike, or deadly aim, and you may not use any of those feats if you’re under the effects of precise attack.

Move opponent
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved bull rush, greater bull rush, improved reposition, greater reposition, improved drag, greater drag, improved overrun, and greater overrun feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Check opponent
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved grapple, greater grapple, improved trip, greater trip, improved uncivilized tactics, and greater uncivilized tactics feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Attack opponent’s weapon
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved disarm, greater disarm, improved sunder, and greater sunder feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

Fight unfair
Prerequisites: none
This feat allows you to act in all ways as if you had the improved steal, greater steal, improved dirty trick, and greater dirty trick feats. You still need to meet the requirements of those feats to use them.

You people have convinced me that to chain up the feats means free optimisation, and I've reconsidered boosting the spellcasters with free greater spell focus. Casters are powerful enough as is.

@ Bitter Lily
Yes, precise shot, rapid shot, and all the other feats that have feat taxes that they don't specifically call out, will be free to pick. Considering improved craft magical item. It is my intention that this be a feat choice. Giving a crafter the choice to generalise (make everything a little cheaper) and/or specialise (make a certain group of magic items a lot cheaper, using the original feats). Or, a crafter could just roll with the free craft feat to go for full price. I picked CL 7, because it was a nice average from all the craft feats.
You pointed out that this would enable casters to make rods cheap at a lower level, but that's not the case. Craft magic item states that you only emulate feats for which you have the Prerequisites.

All in all, my party was hasty to accept the earlier suggestion of just throwing in a lot of feats, so we're still playtesting that. But if in a year or so pathfinder 2.0 still hasn't surfaced, we'll probably go for this ;)

Oh, one last thing. I've read the feat tax article, and I like it. In the end, though, I think this is the more elegant solution, because it doesn't touch the (non feat tax) feat Prerequisites. And I do think a str 10 character should not be using power attack.


All right. I'm filing your proposal away. This whole subject is something I'll have to mull over for some time to come before I try implementing it for myself! I hope we all helped you come up with a proposal for round II.


Condensing feat chains into scaling feats is a lot of work... But it's also pretty much the only good way of making feat starvation not character-crippling in Pathfinder.


Luckily, a lot of people have already done that work. Frank & K and others did it for 3.5, and I did it with Kirthfinder. No sense in re-inventing the wheel.

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