BadBird |
Since Master of Many Styles Monk got a major, free accuracy bonus (+3 at 8), it's much more practical. But I haven't seen much - if any - mention of it anywhere lately. Has anyone schemed on using a MoMS-focused build lately?
One concept I've been looking at is basically two-hander plus style-sorcery:
Ki Mystic Master of Many Styles Monk 10/ Urban Id Rager Bloodrager 1
Dual Talent Human: 16/18STR(+), 12DEX, 15CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Berserker of the Society, Adopted: Warrior of Old
1UI. *Controlled Bloodrage* / *Atavistic Avatar* / *(Power Attack)* / (+Skill Focus: Intimidate) / Extra Rage
2KM. (+Improved Unarmed Strike) / (+Stunning Fist) / +Elemental Fist
3KM. Dragon Style / +Marid Style
4KM. *Ki Mystic*
5KM. *Qinggong: Barkskin* / Dragon Ferocity
6KM. *Mystic Insight* / *Qinggong: Scorching Ray*
7KM. Shaitan Style / [WILDCARD]
8KM. [Dragon Roar]
9KM. Dragon Roar
10KM. [Marid Spirit or Shaitan Skin]
11KM. Improved Critical: Greatsword / [WILDCARD2] / [Marid Spirit and Shaitan Skin]
Notable Equipment: +2 Furious Nodachi, Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists, Belt of Strength +4, Headband of Wisdom +4, Ring of Ki Mastery, Monk's Robe, assorted wands.
With unarmed strike damage and Elemental Fist damage being very high, and with Elemental Fist granting a debuff, Dragon Roar is actually pretty interesting. You can essentially hit everything in a 15' cone with a Dragon/Marid or Dragon/Shaitan unarmed strike as a standard action at least 4 times per day.
Tacking Shaitan Style onto a sword or unarmed attack will add significant damage and a chance to stagger. You get a ton of Elemental Fist uses/day with (Monk level + 1 per Elemental Fist Style Feat).
With Marid Style, you can make one reach AoO per round with a Dragon Style Elemental Fist unarmed strike (assuming you didn't already add Elemental Fist to a sword or unarmed attack).
Ki Mystic grants a 12-point Ki Pool by 11, and allows re-rolling saves or attacks (for 1 Ki with a Ki Mastery Ring).
In general, massive Rage strength and a Furious two-hander smashes things good.
Anyone else got a scheme for a MoMS monster, unarmed or otherwise? A couple other things of note would be that TWF works on a MoMS with the normal Monk Unarmed Strike 'no offhand' boon, and MoMS uses level=BAB for CMB while still getting a +3 to attack rolls. MoMS is also very other-archetype friendly...
Nitro~Nina |
It's also completely compatible with the Unchained Monk, if you don't need an amazing Will Save and would like a good BAB in general, as well as more options when it comes to the cool stuff you can do. You lose out on the Unchained Monk Style Strikes, ironically, but you could always ask your GM to change that so that you can use them once per round while in two styles at once.
Ridiculon |
I use it for a dip, mostly to save on a couple feats and boost saves for the brawler. Not to mention the all important Fuse Style ability.
Dip at level 3, fuse Spear Dancing Style and Mobile Bulwark Style, add martial versatility for a dex based tower shield and flurry-able scythe build, tons o' fun.
BadBird |
Yeah, it's a very common dip for all sorts of interesting uses. But I'm more curious about whether, since it was given a straight combat bonus to compensate for no 'Full BAB', people have actually looked at using it as a primary or single class.
Another thing that comes to mind would be TWF + Ascetic Style + Dragon Style + another style that benefits unarmed strikes. Get Dragon Style and Monk unarmed benefits on two swords, then add more style...
Nitro~Nina |
It's also not compatible with unchained because no archetype that existed before the unchained monk is compatible with unchained monk.
I believe it is the exception given that it doesn't replace any of the stuff that Unchained dumped (the Unchained Rogue, for instance, gets to keep most of its archetypes), unless the Developers have said otherwise?
Chess Pwn |
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The book says otherwise.
"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
meaning the monk doesn't work with archetypes from previous books even if they have the appropriate class features to replace.
This has been confirmed I believe, though I don't have the link for that.
Mark Seifter Designer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chess Pwn is correct. That said, if you took away those accuracy boosts (given that Unchained monk doesn't lose accuracy by losing flurry like the CRB one does, so it absolutely doesn't need them) you're probably closer to OK with kitbashing it than with other monk archetypes, which would tend to be a massive power grab for the Unchained monk (like they are for the CRB monk, but the CRB monk was a lower baseline).
Blind Monkey |
I did not even notice the to hit boost before. But even that bonus still leaves it with less attacks than full BAB so it's nothing special. Taking the TWF feats will indeed basically give you back the same flurry progress as a normal core monk after level 9 but you have to spend all those feats and meet the dex requirements. Regardless the reason the MoMS is sucking in general is because it now has to meet all the random requirements for all the style feats after the first, which a +3 attack bonus doesn't fix. And the benefits of not dipping do not even kick in until level 8.
I suppose you could attempt to combine Ascetic Style (exploiting you only need the first feat as a monk), Jabbing Style, and Dragon Style. Using cestus(es?) I am guessing because core monks do not get monk weapon proficiency.
Let's see, you don't have flurry so Jabbing has to be a bonus feat if you want it before 6th level. Maybe 1:TWF, AS, 2:Jab, 3: Dragon, 5: Dodge, 6: D.Ferocity, 7: Mobility, 9: ITWF, 10: Jabbing Dancer, 11: Power attack, 13: Jabbing Master. 14: Pummeling Style 15: Pummeling Charge. Because you don't have a flying side kick.
Requires 15 Str, 17 Dex, and acrobatics so far, which is doable. Greater TWF requires 19 dex which is maybe less doable since you are desperately a strength build, even with 7 int and cha you are being pretty low on your prime stat relative to most people. Say you get it at 17. At level 20 you can supposedly fuse 5 styles, but even though this build is cheesing styles that only need one or two feats instead of the full chain you only have two feats left. Your starting array with say Dual-Talent Human would be needing to look like 16+2s/16+2d/14c/7i/13w/7cha just to function.
So in the end your main hand cestus does unarmed damage + 1.5 str, your offhand does + 1 str, and you can pounce with jabbing style. But you are squishy and can do nothing else. I am not sure I would not rather just take a one/two level dip and go, I dunno, strength-based Slayer for TWF style and sneak attack.
Nitro~Nina |
The book says otherwise.
"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
meaning the monk doesn't work with archetypes from previous books even if they have the appropriate class features to replace.This has been confirmed I believe, though I don't have the link for that.
Thanks!
Chess Pwn is correct. That said, if you took away those accuracy boosts (given that Unchained monk doesn't lose accuracy by losing flurry like the CRB one does, so it absolutely doesn't need them) you're probably closer to OK with kitbashing it than with other monk archetypes, which would tend to be a massive power grab for the Unchained monk (like they are for the CRB monk, but the CRB monk was a lower baseline).Quote:Thanks to you too!
I need to read my words more carefully.
Lady-J |
Chess Pwn is correct. That said, if you took away those accuracy boosts (given that Unchained monk doesn't lose accuracy by losing flurry like the CRB one does, so it absolutely doesn't need them) you're probably closer to OK with kitbashing it than with other monk archetypes, which would tend to be a massive power grab for the Unchained monk (like they are for the CRB monk, but the CRB monk was a lower baseline).
unless the to hit bonus was replaced with a will save bonus it would effect over all balence for the archetype and would make it only a meh choise for unchained monks so it should either keep the accuracy when on a unchained monk (to help offset the penalties from twoweapon fighting) or give them a good will save progression
ChaiGuy |
I still don't have a complete character, but some thoughts for jabbing + Boar styles:
Human Brawler 2, Monk MoMS X
Str 15 (17), Dex 16, Con 13, Int 9, wis 14, cha 7
lv 4 + Str, Lv 8 + con
Brawler's Martial Flexibility let's you pick up style feats as you need them and adds Boar Shred as early as lv 9 with this build.
L1 Toughness, Dodge (Human) Brawl
L2 Brawler Bonus feat mobility, brawler's flurry
L3 weapon foc unarmed strike, Boar style (B)
L4 jabbing style (B)
L5 Power Attack
L7 Boar ferocity
L8 Jabbing Dance (B)
L9 Iron will
Edit: changed feat order
BadBird |
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Interestingly enough, you can take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting off of Brawler's Flurry in the same way that a Ranger can take feats off of their Ranger Style bonus feats. So with Dual Talent Human or just some kind of ability-enhancing item or another point into DEX, you could continue with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
razor34 |
Since Master of Many Styles Monk got a major, free accuracy bonus (+3 at 8), it's much more practical. But I haven't seen much - if any - mention of it anywhere lately. Has anyone schemed on using a MoMS-focused build lately?
One concept I've been looking at is basically two-hander plus style-sorcery:
** spoiler omitted **...
I have been theory crafting a monk of many styles using panther/snake/tiger.
I don't have all the names of things in my head so this will be a bit vague.
there is a trait that gives +1 to ac vs AoO, a feat that gives +2 ac vs AoO, there is a feat that lets you hit back against AoO's if they miss, then there is the panther style feats that let you hit back against AoO's and make them less likely to hit and less damaging. with snake style if you ever threaten a critical you can use sense motive to confirm.
so you basically run around intentionally provoking AoO's and if the enemies smarten up, go ham with tiger style
razor34 |
Why Tiger? I would think that Dragon would be the most effective for single attacks after moving, or just generally beating-down targets.
basically for tiger styles second feat, two separate attacks at max bab, multiplying both if either crit, and making my unamred attacks slashing in addition to the piercing from snake and bludgeon naturally
BadBird |
BadBird wrote:Why Tiger? I would think that Dragon would be the most effective for single attacks after moving, or just generally beating-down targets.basically for tiger styles second feat, two separate attacks at max bab, multiplying both if either crit, and making my unamred attacks slashing in addition to the piercing from snake and bludgeon naturally
I do like a good Tiger Claw, but the fact that it's a full action to use wouldn't necessarily mesh with the mobility aspect you're looking at.
Mixing Dragon Style and Tiger Claw is pretty awesome, since both unarmed damage rolls you're making are typically part of your 'first unarmed strike'... which means both unarmed rolls get 2xSTR.
razor34 |
razor34 wrote:BadBird wrote:Why Tiger? I would think that Dragon would be the most effective for single attacks after moving, or just generally beating-down targets.basically for tiger styles second feat, two separate attacks at max bab, multiplying both if either crit, and making my unamred attacks slashing in addition to the piercing from snake and bludgeon naturallyI do like a good Tiger Claw, but the fact that it's a full action to use wouldn't necessarily mesh with the mobility aspect you're looking at.
Mixing Dragon Style and Tiger Claw is pretty awesome, since both unarmed damage rolls you're making are typically part of your 'first unarmed strike'... which means both unarmed rolls get 2xSTR.
now that ive actually looked at dragon style I agree with you, dragon is probably better for the added STR bonus.
I just thought it would be funny to make a monk that basically ran around going "nah nah nah nah, you cant hit me"
I was challenged by a friend to make the trolliest character I could, so BOOM a monk you cant hit who hits you back when you try
razor34 |
razor34 wrote:theres also a magic weapon enchantment that allows a second attack on an aoo at a -5 penaltyrazor34 wrote:I also coulda sworn there was a feat that let you take another AoO if your first one hit, but now I cant find itnvm, its the last snake style feat that does that
oh really? and I was thinking about using unarmed......hm.......back to the drawing board
Lady-J |
Lady-J wrote:oh really? and I was thinking about using unarmed......hm.......back to the drawing boardrazor34 wrote:theres also a magic weapon enchantment that allows a second attack on an aoo at a -5 penaltyrazor34 wrote:I also coulda sworn there was a feat that let you take another AoO if your first one hit, but now I cant find itnvm, its the last snake style feat that does that
ya i cant remember the name of it tho its a really obscure one
Lady-J |
Razor34, you can put magic weapon enchantments (like fortuitous) on an amulet of mighty fists.
ya but its a waste to put anything other than the static +1-5 on an AOMF as it costs too much and only goes to +5
BadBird |
Maybe use Ascetic Style? Should actually do more damage than Dragon Style, and you can even stack AoMF with a magical weapon for lower prices!
The fun thing about Ascetic and MoMS is that you can use both Ascetic and Dragon on a sword - which means that TWF with Ascetic Dragon means 1.5xSTR and full Power Attack on each hand...
Blind Monkey |
As far as I know you only ever get 50% power attack on your offhand with TWF even if you have double slice and AS+Dragon to get 1.5 str. That idea would work however if you dip MoMS 1/Brawler X and used the brawler flurry. OR you could be simply an unchained monk and flurry with a two-handed weapon for 1.5 str and 1.5 power attack on every hit without any styles.
Now I think taking 3 levels of freestyle fighter for its MoMS-lite fuse and unchained monk would let you AS+Dragon into having 2x str and 1.5 power attack on all your attacks...
BadBird |
The Monk Unarmed Strike class ability makes all unarmed strikes act as mainhand attacks - "there is no such thing as an offhand attack for a monk striking unarmed". So if you have Ascetic Form granting class abilities to a weapon in your other hand, it's not treated as an offhand weapon.
That being said, I'm not sure Power Attack is really worth it if you're already able to use Ascetic Dragon with two swords. Tiger Pounce though...
Derklord |
The monk would get 2:1 Power Attack on both hands/weapon, but it's indeed not worth it because the base accuracy is too low, and the damage bonuses too high. I don't really see the benefit of Ascetic Style, anyway. Ascetic Style is awesome on unMonk for three reasons - 1.5xSTR, 3:1 Power Attack, and cheaper weapon enchantments. MoMS only has the last benefit, and with TWF, it even looses that. The gain from Ascetic Style is 19-20 treat range, DR slashing or piercing penetration, and the ability to stack AoMF with weapon enchantments. I'd rather have Pummeling Style, or maybe even Boar Style or Outslug Style.
Third style should be Jabbing Style for even more bonus damage per hit, of course.
The problem is that an unMonk with Ascetic Style does more damage and has pseudo-pounce. Pummeling Charge is possible, but that's another feat for it to fully work (we're talking lvl11 here), and still less damage.
BadBird |
I don't really see the benefit of Ascetic Style, anyway. Ascetic Style is awesome on unMonk for three reasons - 1.5xSTR, 3:1 Power Attack, and cheaper weapon enchantments. MoMS only has the last benefit, and with TWF, it even looses that.
The benefit of Ascetic on the MoMS is that you can combo unarmed styles onto a weapon. TWF with two Ascetic Form + Dragon Ferocity + Tiger Pounce swords would mean 2:1 Power Attack with no accuracy penalty and 1.5XSTR+ on each sword, which combined with the accuracy bonus from MoMS is pretty powerful.
You can also use unarmed-only clauses on styles with Ascetic weapons, so you could, say, throw an Ascetic thrown weapon at a target, and then use Tiger Pounce to pounce on it with the rest of the full attack.
ShroudedInLight |
Something that BadBird pointed out to me in another thread is the uses of Martial Versatility...which I really think should be patched but w/e it works. A Human Fighter 4/MoMS can use Ascetic style to cheat pretty much any weapon into being usable with style feats thanks to Martial Versatility.
This, once again, allows folks to use Pummeling Style with a Greatsword.
Give me a minute while I fish around for combinations that doesn't break developer intent over my knees.
ShroudedInLight |
- Kracken, Snapping Turtle, and Grappling style
Be the ultimate Grapling menace
- Archon, Linnorm, and Panther Style
Come at Me Barbarian but a monk instead
-Kyton Style, Asetic Style, Pummeling Style
-Use Pummeling Style with a Spiked Chain
There are other combos, and these mixed styles are only 3 of the potential 5 you can mix together but they are a good place to start for a few interesting builds. Of course you can always just combine Tiger, Dragon, and Pummeling for maximum damage and just leave it at that but what fun is that?
ShroudedInLight |
Really? I knew it got changed to work with only unarmed strikes but I assumed Aestic style would still get round it...I never read the updated version.
Thats hysterical.
When you have to add "This ability works only with X, no matter what other abilities you might possess." you know you have royally screwed up.
BadBird |
Here's one for fun Ascetic mobility:
Medium 1/ Master of Many Styles Monk 8
Human: 15/17, 15, 14, 10, 14, 7
1MS. Two-Weapon Fighting / +Ascetic Style / +Power Attack
2MS. +Dragon Style
3Me. Tiger Style
4MS. [+1STR]
5MS. Dragon Ferocity
6MS.
7MS. Tiger Claws
8MS. [+1DEX]
9MS. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting / WILDCARD {Tiger Pounce}
You wield a temple sword in one hand, while your other hand throws shuriken or makes unarmed strikes. Temple sword and shuriken benefit from Ascetic Style, and so also benefit from Dragon Style and Tiger Style.
Because your shuriken benefit from Ascetic Style, you can make a full attack on a target up to 25' away that goes:
Shuriken (2xSTR) / *Tiger Pounce: move 25'* / Temple Sword (1.5xSTR, 2:1 PAk) / Unarmed Strike -5 (1.5xSTR, 2:1 PAk) / Temple Sword -5 (1.5xSTR, 2:1 PAk).
Besides Dragon Style and Power Attack, every attack also benefits from +3 damage due to Champion Spirit on Medium. Channeling a weaker spirit grants quite a few Spirit Surges to add 1d6 to an attack roll if it fails - very handy for making sure your initial shuriken doesn't miss.
Alzrius |
Pummeling Style got errata'd to prohibit using anything other than Unarmed Strike with it, regardless of other abilities.
You can almost hear what the devs were thinking when they wrote that:
No more stones.
No more spears.
No more slings.
No more swords!
No more weapons!
No more SYSTEMS!
NOOO MOOORE!
No more powergaming.
Blind Monkey |
Pummeling style errata not only added the "unarmed no matter what" line, it also nerfed it to only work like Clustered Shots (but without its special) and not give you a super critical. Since you're unlikely to have such big DR problems with melee weapons the only real reason for Pummeling Style is using the Charge as pounce (or be taking lots of feats to use Bully for a free trip).
The Monk Unarmed Strike class ability makes all unarmed strikes act as mainhand attacks - "there is no such thing as an offhand attack for a monk striking unarmed". So if you have Ascetic Form granting class abilities to a weapon in your other hand, it's not treated as an offhand weapon.
That being said, I'm not sure Power Attack is really worth it if you're already able to use Ascetic Dragon with two swords. Tiger Pounce though...
Ah yes, I forgot that they copied that into both Flurry and monk US abilities.
Despite the pummeling nerf, I wonder if P.Charge is still not better than Tiger Pounce here though. Tiger Claw says it requires "both hands free", which is inviting a weird argument to use and being more like a feat tax with AS, and Tiger Style isn't much better than Pummeling as a first feat in the chain since it is basically just giving you 1d4 bleed on crits with Ascetic. Both P.Charge and T.Pounce require Monk 8, but PC only requires one other feat and TP requires three other feats. MoMS is being feat starved enough as is especially if you do not want to actually use Power Attack. SO you could do:
1MS. Two-Weapon Fighting / +Ascetic Style / +Power Attack
2MS. +Dragon Style
3Me. Pummeling Style
4MS. [+1STR]
5MS. Dragon Ferocity
6MS.
7MS. Boar Style?
8MS. [+1DEX]
9MS. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting / Wildcard-> Pummeling Charge
Then switch from Pummeling Style to Boar Style if you don't need to charge. That removes the necessity to hit someone with a shuriken and actually extends your range to normal charge range.