Hi guys, i need some tips about this character i'm working on.
My bloodrager is going to be a heavy melee dps, hopefully with a decent survability. While i know more or less the way to go with a two-handed-weapon, i'm considering going the natural attack route.
The problem is that i've never created a PC that use natural attacks, so i really need your help here, mostly about feats. I know the Dragon Style chain, but my knowledge ends here..
I don't care about spellcasting and similar stuff, they don't fit my concept of DD
Improved natural attack isn't a feat "monster only" ?
Plus my GM is talking about unarmed strike and natural attack being different things, arguing about dragon style not working on natural attacks...
He forgot to include the Feral Combat Training as a feat tax. Thought you could get it through an archetype, but I cant find it right now. Besides, I think it conflicts with rageshaper, which you want more than anything on this build. Imp. Natural Attack is in the beastiary, so its not PFS legal. If your DM allows it, definetly take it.
Ty guys, didn't known about this Iroran Paladin and Feral Combat Training.
I fell that it's a stronger options then 1 lvl monk dip, so it should look like this:
2 iroran paladin/4 Bloodrager(rageshaper)/ Dragon Disciple x?
Must Have feat are:
IUS (free)
Power Attack
Dragon Style
Feral Combat Training
Arcane Strike(really it works on natural attacks? o_0 ? )
Raging Vitality.
Other useful feats could be Raging Brutality and Reckless rage, furious focus maybe, toughness , Iron Will and the likes.
If you're feeling gutsy, Crossblood Rager Dragon/Abyssl and a protector tumor hedgehog familiar. +50% HP, and a chance at +2 Armor while the sucker ia fuses to you. Never have to let it out of your body, think of it as a "rage core" lmao.
that looks way too much power play for the lvl of my usual party :D
Well, that's what i've put together regarding feats :
Human
blood01: power attack, weapon focus(claw)
pala01:IUS
pala02: feral combat training
blood02:
blood03:dragon style
blood04:
DD01:Raging vitality
DD02:weapon focus(bite)
DD03:stunning fist?
DD04:
DD05:toughness, Dragon ferocity?
This is coming online quiet late, i should try and build a scaled fist too, free stunning and dragonstyle might solve some problems of feat intensity..
Plus the requisite for stunning fist out of monk class are retarded...
I'd do this
blood 4
paladin 2
scaled fist monk 1
DD 4
bloodrager lets you use wands of mage armor to keep your AC up.
The downside to this though is that you'll probably not be doing flurry.
I can live without flurry, i guess.. ain't gonna be scaled fist + iroran paladin a bit redundant? I get IUS 2 times for free for example :D
Enlarge person ans mage armor my first 2 spell known probably
true, those two do overlap a lot.
So monk 1 bloodrager 4, dd6
Oh, that looks much stronger now.
Human
Blood01: Power Attack, Weapon focus(claw)
Blood02:
Monk01: IUS(free), Stunning Fist(free), Dragon Style (Bonus), Feral Combat Training
Blood03:
Blood04:Raging Vitality(or Reckless rage maybe, or something)
DD01:
DD02:Weapon focus(bite)(Bonus), Dragon Ferocity
That looks amazing to me. Ty guys for all the hints, really helpful
So there are pros and cons to going DD 4 and DD6.
DD6 loses out on another bab and spell level, DD 4 doesn't lose on bab and if you replace with Bloodrager then you don't lose the second spell progression.
I'd suggest doing both Paladin and Monk dips (with Iroran and Scaled Fist archetypes). Even if you lag behind in CL (which you don't really care about) and BAB (natural attack become better the less iteratives you have, since they're almost always at full BAB), the raw benefits (feats, Divine Grace, Lay On Hands, AC supplements, Personal Trial) are fairly solid. Any AC you lose without armor can be made up for with Bracers of Armor +X or Mage Armor, and you can't use a shield without losing natural attacks anyway, which makes casting Shield as a pre-buff the best Shield bonus tactic you have available to you. (Magic Missile immunity is an added bonus.)
For your Bloodrager levels, I'd tack on the Primalist archetype, because there are some crazy good Rage powers that you can take while getting rid of any overriding or crappy Dragon bloodline abilities. Imagine being able to Pounce with the Beast Totem while benefitting from Superstition (which makes your Saves against spells absolutely ridiculous).
For feats, Dragon Style for your Claws is an alright choice. With Dragon Disciple, you will gain a Bite Attack that adds 1.5x Strength that can be done in concert with your claws, and is a big damage supplement. Unfortunately, you can't flurry with that attack unless you spend two feats for it (the Weapon Focus and Feral Combat Training, since it only affects one natural weapon at a time now). In my opinion, it's not worth it if you're already grabbing Dragon Ferocity (though it is a little late in my opinion). Arcane Strike feat is likewise a trap (since it doesn't apply to Natural Attacks per FAQ) unless you take Blooded Arcane Strike, which applies to all attacks you make while in a Bloodrage. Raging Vitality is a solid feat choice, and because you are only taking a few Bloodrager levels, maybe Extra Rage might be worthwhile if you can spare the feats, in the event you fall unconscious.
I'd honestly not bother to stick around in Dragon Disciple past 4th level and take the remaining levels in Bloodrager to supplement your rage abilities, though if you really want to, then be my guest.
Is this for PFS? And what level are you starting out (i.e. is this a 1-20 sort of build)?
the issue with muliclassing the irorian paladin and monk are many people feel their CHA to AC abilities don't stack. so that part is wasted too.
It's for an Adventure Path, so starting out at lvl 1 and going till lvl 15-17 (it change if we are 4 or 5 players, we still don't know, usually 15 point buy)
I'm looking for a PC that fit my background for a melee character focused on natural attacks. And since i love dragons in general, i picked the DD prestige class.
My PC has to be fairly optimized to fit the rest of my group, but it doesn't have to be OP in any way.
Cha to AC won't stack in my party, that's for sure.
Primalist while being awesome mechanically, i dunno if it fits my roleplay background. I've played a pure Barbarian till lvl 17 in Kingmaker, I know how AM SMASH it is :D
the issue with muliclassing the irorian paladin and monk are many people feel their CHA to AC abilities don't stack. so that part is wasted too.
There's already been a thread about this, and quite frankly it's only a problem because people either don't see the differences being made, or don't care about the differences being made because [balance reasons]. (I really wish they explained which of these two purposes they side with.) In which case, that's for his GM to decide, and all we can do, is present his case for the GM to look over. Here's what I have to say on the matter:
Iroran Paladin gives Charisma to Dexterity for calculating AC (and not CMD, actually), capped by class level. This means that your Dexterity modifier for AC is increased, and anything that inhibits your Dexterity Bonus to AC (such as Maximum Dexterity Bonus and being flat-footed) likewise applies to that benefit, since it's merely augmenting an existing bonus by an amount equal to another bonus, and isn't a separate type of bonus in and of itself. This is no different than a Natural Armor Bonus to AC and an Enhancement to a Natural Armor Bonus to AC. One is augmenting the other.
Scaled Fist Monk gives Charisma to AC flat-out, and serves as a separate bonus in and of itself in comparison to Dexterity. This also means that if I were wearing armor that has a Maximum Dexterity Bonus (which would cease this ability's function), or that I am caught flat-footed, it doesn't remove this benefit (unless the feature says it does, which I'm almost positive Monk AC isn't negated under flat-footed conditions). Here, this is a separate bonus, and if the character is affected by another identical bonus (and not one that simply augments one that adds to the same attribute as described above), then it will stack with something that adds to that bonus.
I mean, if these two abilities aren't supposed to stack, then Enhancement Bonuses to Armor (and Natural Armor) don't stack with Armor (or Natural Armor) Bonuses, even though one (the Enhancement Bonus) is augmenting the other. That's exactly what's being proposed by saying these abilities don't stack, because their situations are identical.
It's for an Adventure Path, so starting out at lvl 1 and going till lvl 15-17 (it change if we are 4 or 5 players, we still don't know, usually 15 point buy)
I'm looking for a PC that fit my background for a melee character focused on natural attacks. And since i love dragons in general, i picked the DD prestige class.
My PC has to be fairly optimized to fit the rest of my group, but it doesn't have to be OP in any way.Cha to AC won't stack in my party, that's for sure.
Primalist while being awesome mechanically, i dunno if it fits my roleplay background. I've played a pure Barbarian till lvl 17 in Kingmaker, I know how AM SMASH it is :D
So, which AP is it going to be, or is that dependant upon which player numbers you have? (Probably not Kingmaker, since you just played it, but whatever other APs you'll be playing...) Also, how do you think you'll allocate your point buy?
Dragon Disciples are solid choices. Wild Shape Druids are perhaps even better, despite the crap spell list, since they are still, in their hearts, a full Divine spellcaster, with a basically built-in pounce, and can have up to 5+ attacks. Bonus points for taking VMC Barbarian and dipping a level in Monk so your Wild Shape AC isn't complete garbage. But, Bloodrager + Dragon Disciple is equally interesting...
See above for my thoughts on the whole "Charisma to AC" thing.
Fair enough. I merely suggested it because it helps replace some silly options with other options that may make your character a really scary sight.
**EDIT** Did you consider Crossblooded? Some people argue that Dragon Disciple levels would increase the progression of the second bloodline you chose, which can give you some interesting options to choose from.
Some people see adding your CHA to DEX is making it a dex/cha source and not just a dex source.
Yeah, sorry if it wasn't clear, but of course it was check with GM and if negative then it's something he misses out on too.
Problably Carrion Crown.
point allocation with 15 point is....difficult. Looking like this for now, before racial modifiers:
STR:16
DEX:10
COS:14
INT:8
WIS:10
CHA:12
The more i look at this character, the more i think i shouldn't care about AC at all. It's never gonna be high enough to really save me, even if i haven't done some real math till now to support my point...
Crossblooded is banned. House rule after a blaster sorcere took the orc + draconic bloodine as 1st lvl, then went wizard with evocation admixture...my GM didn't see it coming and allowed it at the start, regretting it some levels later... I know it's a different class, still not an option :D
Some people see adding your CHA to DEX is making it a dex/cha source and not just a dex source.
If that's the case, then that's houseruling.
There's no rules about combining two sets of bonus types into one bonus type if the statistic is affected by more than one type of bonus.
There's replacing a bonus with another bonus (Weapon Finesse is the most common one), there's an improvement on existing bonuses being added to a statistic (either by overlapping or through effects that increase them, such as Enhancement Bonuses or class features like Dragon Disciples with Natural Armor, or the Iroran Paladin benefit), and there's taking a bonus type equal to another bonus type's bonus and adding it to a statistic (such as Deflection equal to Charisma to AC).
But having a type count as two types for all (or certain) intents and purposes requires explicit wording (such as the Oracle's Sidestep Secret) to come to that conclusion. In fact, the only time where something counts as two types in any situation (such as creature types or subtypes, or what you've presumed) is when it's explicitly mentioned. And that's not the case here with these two abilities.
In fact, it's instead explicitly worded to not be typed as Charisma compared to other effects which do just that (such as the Scaled Fist archetype, and Sidestep Secret Oracle Revelation), that proposing it's doing the same thing (Charisma to AC), despite me having proven that there are different results and ramifications in comparison to the two abilities, is just blatantly false.
Problably Carrion Crown.
point allocation with 15 point is....difficult. Looking like this for now, before racial modifiers:
STR:16
DEX:10
COS:14
INT:8
WIS:10
CHA:12The more i look at this character, the more i think i shouldn't care about AC at all. It's never gonna be high enough to really save me, even if i haven't done some real math till now to support my point...
Crossblooded is banned. House rule after a blaster sorcere took the orc + draconic bloodine as 1st lvl, then went wizard with evocation admixture...my GM didn't see it coming and allowed it at the start, regretting it some levels later... I know it's a different class, still not an option :D
15 point buy is going to be difficult for a MAD character like yourself. There's also the idea that you don't care about casting, so things that are reliant on Charisma (which you aren't pumping, no big deal if you don't as a Bloodrager), such as the Iroran Paladin dip and the Scaled Monk dip, won't be as valuable as it is to, say, a Sorcerer or Bard, who usually pump that stuff into the stratosphere. In fact, with that being said, I'd advise against dipping, since that's kind of a waste of class features and character options for such a meager benefit.
As an aside, that same blaster could've been a Blood Arcanist with the Orc Bloodline (still receiving its arcana), with the School Understanding (Admixture) exploit by 5th level, with the ability to boost his CL and Save DCs even higher than before (and have all sorts of other benefits), and accomplished a nearly identical effect. Not saying he shouldn't have banned it, but I'm pointing out that even if the GM banned it, there was another way for that PC to be built that would be equally downright scary. Unfortunately, when a caster builds to be an efficient blaster, it can solo most any encounter, due to its flexibility and raw power. I did the math. Except for BBEGs, it can one-spell any CR-equivalent enemy with a Fireball, or one-spell/round a BBEG with Battering Blast(s).
Well, the least i could dip is 1 lvl of scaled fist. I need it, the requisites for Dragon Ferocity are unbearable for anyone that isn't a monk.
Some math for a lvl 9 (1 monk/4 blood/4 DD)
assuming belt of str +2 and amulet of mighty fist +1
BaB: + 7 base + 7 str + 2 rage + 1 belt + 1 AoMF + 1 WF - 3 PA = +16 (which is meh against an average ac of 24 for cr 10)
A better equip could solve the problem
If you want a way to use spells directly for melee combat, you could use Blood Conduit. With an unarmed strike (which you're already set up to use) you can swift-action cast Frostbite, and Frostbite then adds major elemental damage to all your claw strikes for a while. You can also use Frigid Touch to stagger enemies, and put Rime spell on cold spells. You're still mostly a claw-fighter, but can channel elemental damage easily with an occasional punch.