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Best / Strongest Archery Build


Advice

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Snowlilly wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

right, but for many tables haste or BoF isn't a given.

For many tables haste or BoF is cast every fight r1 from the +20 init wizard.
<--- plays a +24 init magus. Always memorizes Haste.

Conversely, our gaming table has had a consistent Haste caster for roughly 8 months out of the last 5+ years, over the course of four different Adventure paths.


As far as archery builds go, are we also factoring in other ranged weapon types? Thrown, crossbow, sling? I know those are generally going to fall behind, but I've seen some interesting setups using those and wanted to know just how they compare in DPR with bow-users.


Inlaa wrote:
As far as archery builds go, are we also factoring in other ranged weapon types? Thrown, crossbow, sling? I know those are generally going to fall behind, but I've seen some interesting setups using those and wanted to know just how they compare in DPR with bow-users.

Thrown weapons usually don't compare well to Archery because they don't have the same kind of range.

That being said you can get more thrown weapons into the air than arrows if you stack TWF and Rapid Shot.


Alex Mack wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
As far as archery builds go, are we also factoring in other ranged weapon types? Thrown, crossbow, sling? I know those are generally going to fall behind, but I've seen some interesting setups using those and wanted to know just how they compare in DPR with bow-users.

Thrown weapons usually don't compare well to Archery because they don't have the same kind of range.

That being said you can get more thrown weapons into the air than arrows if you stack TWF and Rapid Shot.

Hrm. That makes me wonder what that Molthuni WP could do with his/her abundance of Feats and self-buffing when combined with a Blinkback Belt. Granted, would be short range, but curious what the additional attacks could yield....


Alex Mack wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
As far as archery builds go, are we also factoring in other ranged weapon types? Thrown, crossbow, sling? I know those are generally going to fall behind, but I've seen some interesting setups using those and wanted to know just how they compare in DPR with bow-users.

Thrown weapons usually don't compare well to Archery because they don't have the same kind of range.

That being said you can get more thrown weapons into the air than arrows if you stack TWF and Rapid Shot.

I did some comparison in this regard before.

If you use Startoss Style the extra damage plus lacking the extra penalties usually put them very close together in terms of total damage output on the warpriest I was building.

I think eventually the TWF build pulls ahead, but it takes a while.

It's also worth noting that at least as far as I know only Fighters or Warpriests are viable as thrown weapon users thanks to Ricochet Toss. I mean, you can spend a feat on martial focus to get Ricochet Toss, but now it's another feat on classes that don't have as many bonus feats on a combat style that requires the most feats to overcome the penalties.

Saldiven wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
As far as archery builds go, are we also factoring in other ranged weapon types? Thrown, crossbow, sling? I know those are generally going to fall behind, but I've seen some interesting setups using those and wanted to know just how they compare in DPR with bow-users.

Thrown weapons usually don't compare well to Archery because they don't have the same kind of range.

That being said you can get more thrown weapons into the air than arrows if you stack TWF and Rapid Shot.
Hrm. That makes me wonder what that Molthuni WP could do with his/her abundance of Feats and self-buffing when combined with a Blinkback Belt. Granted, would be short range, but curious what the additional attacks could yield....

Don't bother with a blinkback belt, you qualify for Ricochet Toss.

Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain warpriests make very good thrown weapon users. Specifically I was a worshiper of Desna using starknives with Starry Grace.


It really depends on individual builds but the highest DPR I was able to crunch at level 9 was for a TWF thrower.

And actually brawlers (or builds that dip brawler) can combine TWF and Startoss style.

Also as thrown weapon users are even more feat starved than Archers you will often rely on a blinkback belt until later in the game. The idea that blinback belt is always inferior to Ricochet Toss is also one of those myths that doesn't hold up to my number crunching. At least in the PFS level range stat belts aren't all that great for throwers and the belt of mighty hurling is super hard to build around if you aren't starting at higher levels.


I think the only ranged weapon in the close weapons group that a brawler could flurry with is a wushu dart. For monk weapon's shuriken.

Those aren't particularly great options for thrown weapons. But I guess you could qualify to TWF and use Startoss style this way.

Still, you'll end up with problems since you need a blinkback belt. Which then means no stat enhancing belt. And while you say you don't think it makes a difference, not be able to enhance strength for damage or dex for attack rolls definitely is a disadvantage compared to be able to have that item and take Ricochet Toss.

If you are a Warpriest or Fighter there is no reason not to take it.


So, on a thrower: ricochet toss, belt of mighty hurling, strength based, go to town?

EDIT: Also, I could definitely see tinkering with a Human Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest to make a kickass thrower given these feats and items. Using a chakram seems like the best choice for raw damage output + 30 feet of range. Might need a way to boost that range though.


This is now reminding me of an idea I had for flurry throwing:

Take one level of Unchained Monk for the flurrying (and proficiency) with all monk weapons that is basically a superior form of TWF#1 here. Then take all the rest of your levels in Chaplain Warpriest to raise the damage dice to d6 and get Rapid Shot. Monk flurry doesn't stack with TWF but doesn't say it doesn't work with RS, so you should be able to always get two extra shots at max BAB with only a -2 to hit.

At first I was thinking of shuriken flurries, but then I realized I don't know how to get effective magic shuriken without trying to cast abundant ammo and greater magic weapon before every fight.

So then I notice the wushu dart with enhancements is like its own version of that but you have to stay within 20 feet. maybe the best option as long as you never melee.

Also I notice the Dan Bong is actually half the cost of shuriken, has no weight, 19 crit range, and is a thrown melee weapon. At the start of the game you could just carry a giant 0 weight bag of dan bongs to throw at people. So it would cost the quickdraw feat and a blinkback belt/ricochet toss when you enchant one of them, but in the end maybe be even better since you are using the warpriest focus to both melee in an emergency and throw.


Unchained monk flurry throwers are great; I prefer deer horn knives for their increased range increment but wushu darts and dan bongs are fine too. The best thing about throwing a melee monk weapon is that it's eligible for Ascetic Style: you can forget about both blinkback belts and Ricochet Toss and just throw nonmagical knives, enhancing them with an amulet of mighty fists and/or greater magic fang. Not to mention all the other neat unarmed strike-enhancing effects you get to add on, from brawling armor to the Heavy Hitter trait.


The deer horn knife range does sound nice, though part of why I was liking the dan bong is that they are even more expendable than shuriken, at low levels you can buy 100 dan bong for the cost of one deer horn knife and it won't even be giving you encumbrance problems! Did you flurry a bunch of dan bong at something off the side of a cliff? Shrug at the lost ones and move on!

Does a warpriest even need Ascetic Style? It seemed like I could save on that whole feat chain by just being a Warpriest and use Startoss Style instead. Chaplain is nice synergy because it loses Sacred Armor and you don't wear armor anyway with the monk level. You lose the second flurry attack at level 11 but gain Divine Favor and Sacred Weapon. You can also AWT back your Warpriest damage for nothing but bonuses everywhere!

Let's see, at level 10 you could be throwing 4 things that start at 1d8 + 6 from startoss + 2 from weapon training... There is also the question of whether or not to go to level 3 monk for the ki pool. The problem is there are so many options I'm not exactly sure what to do.


Inlaa wrote:
As far as archery builds go, are we also factoring in other ranged weapon types? Thrown, crossbow, sling? I know those are generally going to fall behind, but I've seen some interesting setups using those and wanted to know just how they compare in DPR with bow-users.

I KIND of think you could make a competitive and maybe even superior crossbow user but its most likely going to be a mix of a couple classes since bolt ace kind of drops off after level 5


One thing to mention if you are looking at the dpr comparisons is that the ranger has an animal companion for a good chunk of his career. I know that isn't archery damage, but I at least would count it for something.

With minimum investment into your companion you can easily see 50-80+ dpr from your companion at level 10, to say nothing of the rest of the benefits (more bodies on the field, riding options, crowd control).

I am not as familiar with all of the classes presented in this thread, so if some of them have that option too it is worth considering.


Brawler can flurry at range with deer horn knives, wushu darts, dan bongs and the Lungchuan Tamo. Of these options the Wushu Dart and Deer Horn Knife are also in the Thrown weapon group and qualify for Startoss Style. The Wushu Dart is both in the Close and Thrown group and so you can use it to stack brawler and Brawler's (Fighter Archetype) close weapon training. Brawlers can also flurry with shields but I haven't looked into this as that requires you to go at least 3 levels into Brawler.

Unchained Monk can also get Rapid Shot and flurry, however it can't pick up improved and greater TWF and that's actually a big deal. It is really good at low levels though due no to hit penalty.

I agree that for Arsenal Chaplain and Fighter Ricochet Toss is a given (but you still might want to purchase a Blinkback Belt before 6th). I disagree with the statement that due to the existence of Ricochet Toss no other Throwers are viable though.

As of Villain Codex Savage Technologist makes for an extremely strong thrower as it can stack STR+DEX Rage, Furious Weapons, Reckless Abandon and Savage Hurl. That's so much to hit that you can auto hit even when applying Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot and TWF. It also has access to Quick Draw and Rapid Shot as Rage powers now.


Jayder22 wrote:

One thing to mention if you are looking at the dpr comparisons is that the ranger has an animal companion for a good chunk of his career. I know that isn't archery damage, but I at least would count it for something.

With minimum investment into your companion you can easily see 50-80+ dpr from your companion at level 10, to say nothing of the rest of the benefits (more bodies on the field, riding options, crowd control).

I am not as familiar with all of the classes presented in this thread, so if some of them have that option too it is worth considering.

The animal companion also allows for easy access to ranged teamwork feats.


Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.


Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Still sounds awesome to me.

Or a half-elf Eldritch Guardian with an exotic weapon proficiency feat to grab proficiency in some kickass ranged weapon + a mauler monkey familiar.


Inlaa wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Still sounds awesome to me.

Or a half-elf Eldritch Guardian with an exotic weapon proficiency feat to grab proficiency in some kickass ranged weapon + a mauler monkey familiar.

Yes, unfortunately, there aren't really any good exotic ranged weapons for DPR.

There's no rule saying you can't take a weapon proficiency feat, if you already have proficiency in the weapon. So, you could just burn a feat on redundant longbow proficiency.


Melkiador wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Still sounds awesome to me.

Or a half-elf Eldritch Guardian with an exotic weapon proficiency feat to grab proficiency in some kickass ranged weapon + a mauler monkey familiar.

Yes, unfortunately, there aren't really any good exotic ranged weapons for DPR.

Well, firearms are a thing.


Melkiador wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Still sounds awesome to me.

Or a half-elf Eldritch Guardian with an exotic weapon proficiency feat to grab proficiency in some kickass ranged weapon + a mauler monkey familiar.

Yes, unfortunately, there aren't really any good exotic ranged weapons for DPR.

I dunno. Hand Crossbow or Double Sling for TWF? I could also see a Crossbow Mastery setup with a Crossbow (Launcher) used for shooting alchemical things at the enemy (with 5 levels of Bolt Ace? I assume that works?) for a weird fighting style. The Bommerang is outright worse than the Chakram (but maybe you and your monkey are playing Legend of Zelda)... I suppose the Crank Crossbow (Heavy) would be a perfectly valid choice, and you and your monkey could grapple up walls like badasses while using it. At night. Stealth monkey.

It's not a terrible choice if you're playing a half-elf anyway, and a medium-sized monkey as your best friend is a great thing.

EDIT: Or EWP (Firearms), yeah. Musketman with his musketmonkey. Duo of the century.


Say, what about a Gunslinger 1 / Trench Fighter 3 / Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest 6 using a Rifle? Factoring in Fate's Favored, weapon training gloves, DEX-to-damage, etc.? I doubt the character would compete with a maxed out bow or sling warpriest, but we're still looking at a 1d10x4 weapon that is a touch attack, benefits from Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot, has +3 weapon training to attack and damage (thank you magic gloves of awesome), can use Sacred Weapon to boost damage (it's probably a +1 gun with Reliable or something), weapon specialization... Pretty sure Rapid Reload (Rifle) means you reload as a free action, too. Divine Favor should make this a pretty straightforward build.

Or maybe a dual-wield build using Revolvers? With dex-to-damage, Divine Favor... Reloading would be problematic as you'd want to keep the duelist gloves (thus no gloves of storing), but I'm pretty sure it's doable when you have 6 rounds in each gun before you have to reload.


Jayder22 wrote:

One thing to mention if you are looking at the dpr comparisons is that the ranger has an animal companion for a good chunk of his career. I know that isn't archery damage, but I at least would count it for something.

With minimum investment into your companion you can easily see 50-80+ dpr from your companion at level 10, to say nothing of the rest of the benefits (more bodies on the field, riding options, crowd control).

I am not as familiar with all of the classes presented in this thread, so if some of them have that option too it is worth considering.

This is absolutely true, and I kind of wonder if hunter wouldn't sneak on the map if that was added in. Archery teamwork feats aren't as great as the melee ones but they're definitely something.


A Hunter with a T-Rex using Improved Vital Strike might actually be a damned scary man.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Jayder22 wrote:

One thing to mention if you are looking at the dpr comparisons is that the ranger has an animal companion for a good chunk of his career. I know that isn't archery damage, but I at least would count it for something.

With minimum investment into your companion you can easily see 50-80+ dpr from your companion at level 10, to say nothing of the rest of the benefits (more bodies on the field, riding options, crowd control).

I am not as familiar with all of the classes presented in this thread, so if some of them have that option too it is worth considering.

This is absolutely true, and I kind of wonder if hunter wouldn't sneak on the map if that was added in. Archery teamwork feats aren't as great as the melee ones but they're definitely something.

They are somewhat conditional however. Especially if you are fighting multiple foes or ones that are far away. Less so for the Inquisitor however.

Scarab Sages

Well, a hunter, druid, or ranger can hop on a flying animal companion, cast Fickle Winds, and then start shooting.


Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.


Snowlilly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.

Umm.

No, as far as I know, NOT Incubi. You're specifically allowed to select magical beasts. Those GENERALLY don't have arms.

An awakened Gorilla could work though. Awakened animals are magical beasts.

...Oh God an Eldritch Guardian Vanara with a Mauler Monkey companion and an Awakened Gorilla Monstrous Companion.


Inlaa wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.

Umm.

No, as far as I know, NOT Incubi. You're specifically allowed to select magical beasts. Those GENERALLY don't have arms.

An awakened Gorilla could work though. Awakened animals are magical beasts.

...Oh God an Eldritch Guardian Vanara with a Mauler Monkey companion and an Awakened Gorilla Monstrous Companion.

and leadership for a Derhii cohort


Ryan Freire wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.

Umm.

No, as far as I know, NOT Incubi. You're specifically allowed to select magical beasts. Those GENERALLY don't have arms.

An awakened Gorilla could work though. Awakened animals are magical beasts.

...Oh God an Eldritch Guardian Vanara with a Mauler Monkey companion and an Awakened Gorilla Monstrous Companion.

and leadership for a Derhii cohort

That's a whole mess of monkey trouble.


Too much monkey business


Inlaa wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.

Umm.

No, as far as I know, NOT Incubi. You're specifically allowed to select magical beasts. Those GENERALLY don't have arms.

An awakened Gorilla could work though. Awakened animals are magical beasts.

...Oh God an Eldritch Guardian Vanara with a Mauler Monkey companion and an Awakened Gorilla Monstrous Companion.

Example Cohorts & Effective Cohort Level wrote:

Couatl 17th

Daemon, ceustodaemon 14th
Daemon, piscodaemon 17th
Daemon, vulnadaemon 10th
Darkfolk, dark dancer 5th
Darkfolk, dark stalker 9th
Demon, dretch 6th
Demon, incubus 14th
Demon, shadow 15th
Devil, bearded 13th


Animal Ally and monstrous companion require animal companion. Cohort requires the Leadership feat.


Example Cohorts & Effective Cohort Level wrote:

Couatl 17th

Daemon, ceustodaemon 14th
Daemon, piscodaemon 17th
Daemon, vulnadaemon 10th
Darkfolk, dark dancer 5th
Darkfolk, dark stalker 9th
Demon, dretch 6th
Demon, incubus 14th
Demon, shadow 15th
Devil, bearded 13th

Yeah, those are Cohorts. Those belong to the Leadership feat. Monstrous Companion specifically says:

Quote:

You have formed a bond with a creature far more exotic than an animal.

Prerequisite(s): Handle Animal 7 ranks; class feature that functions as the druid animal companion ability (including animal companion, divine bond [mount], hunter's bond [animal companion], nature's bond [animal companion], and the mount class feature) with an effective druid level of 7.

Benefit(s): You can select a MAGICAL BEAST as a cohort in place of your animal companion class feature. Table: Effective Cohort Level determines the effective cohort level for your monstrous companion based on your effective druid level.

You get a cohort, but it's SPECIFICALLY a Magical Beast.

EDIT: Oh no! THE DREAM IS DEAD!

Quote:
Special: This feat counts as the Leadership feat for the purposes of prerequisites. A character cannot have both Leadership and Monstrous Companion.

TOO MUCH MONKEY TROUBLE!


You could still just have a regular ape animal companion though. The awakened version just makes it cooler.


An ape animal companion probably wont use a bow.


Claxon wrote:
An ape animal companion probably wont use a bow.

Not a very good build for tank either tbh, although get it some armor proficiency and earth spirit boon and itd probably be passable.

You're really gonna have to stick with 2handed weapon styles to keep feat costs down though


I guess we could use Leadership to have an Awakened Gorilla+ have an Ape companion with higher-than-usual intelligence+have a mauler companion monkey familiar.

The ape animal companion can't use weapons because it's still just an animal no matter how smart we make it, so it'll just be the muscles of the team. The awakened gorilla and the mauler monkey can use bows (or guns) alongside the Vanara PC.

This works fine.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Claxon wrote:
An ape animal companion probably wont use a bow.

Not a very good build for tank either tbh, although get it some armor proficiency and earth spirit boon and itd probably be passable.

You're really gonna have to stick with 2handed weapon styles to keep feat costs down though

Give it the extra traits feat and pickup armor expert and a mithral breast plate barding. You don't actually need armor proficiencies, if you can get the check down to 0. You could also try adding a mithral heavy shield, but not all DMs would let you use the shield slot by default.


Snowlilly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.

But then you'd be very short on feats to actually build your archer till high level.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Booloo wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Of course, the ranger isn't the only one with access to companions. An eldritch guardian fighter, could have a sprite familiar, and they could both share all of those archery feats. The build would need to use shortbows though.

Nature Soul -> Animal Ally

Any class can get an animal companion at level -3 for two feats. Add a third feat for Boon Companion and any class can enjoy a animal companion at full character level. Add Monstrous Companion, and you could choose from a list of creatures that include Pegasus, Incubi, Nighmares, etc., all capable to acquiring class levels as the character advances.

But then you'd be very short on feats to actually build your archer till high level.

Don't distract us with details!

And anyway, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and the others aren't really necessary if you want to shoot a bow.

Unless, you know, you want to actually be good at it.


I know I'm late to the conversation, but I thought I'd throw this up. Just in case someone wanted to use it. Human Fighter with the Archer archetype. Give it a "shot" sometime.

Human Fighter (Archer) Feats
Human Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus)
1st Level (Weapon and Armor Proficiency)
1st Level Class Feat (Point-Blank Shot)
1st Level Feat (Precise Shot)
2nd Level Class Feat (Rapid Shot)
2nd Level (Hawkeye 1)
3rd Level Feat (Deadly Aim)
3rd Level (Trick Shot 1)
4th Level Class Feat (Weapon Specialization)
5th Level Feat (Bullseye Shot)
5th Level (Expert Archer 1)
6th Level Class Feat (Manyshot)
6th Level (Hawkeye 2)
7th Level Feat (Snap Shot)
7th Level (Trick Shot 2)
8th Level Class Feat (Improved Critical)
9th Level Feat (Critical Focus)
9th Level (Expert Archer 2) (Safe Shot)
10th Level Class Feat (Vital Strike)
10th Level (Hawkeye 3)
-------------
11th Level Feat (Devastating Strike)
11th Level (Trick Shot 3)
12th Level Class Feat (Greater Weapon Focus)
13th Level Feat (Greater Weapon Specialization)
13th Level (Expert Archer 3) (Evasive Archer 1)
14th Level Class Feat (Clustered Shots)
14th Level (Hawkeye 4)
15th Level Feat (Improved Vital Strike)
15th Level (Trick Shot 4)
16th Level Class Feat (Improved Initiative)
17th Level Feat (Improved Precise Shot)
17th Level (Expert Archer 4) (Evasive Archer 2) (Volley)
18th Level Class Feat (Pinpoint Targeting)
18th Level (Hawkeye 5)
19th Level Feat (Quick Draw)
19th Level (Trick Shot 5) (Ranged Defense)
20th Level Class Feat (Greater Vital Strike)
20th Level (Weapon Mastery)

Here's the Archer at the SRD:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fight er-archetypes/archer/


Default Fighter is a better archer than the Archer.


Also some dubious feat choices there. Delaying Clustered Shots until 14th level? Bullseye Shot and the Vital Strike line? I get that you're trying to use the latter to make the former less necessary, but still a poor choice IMO. Improved Critical and Critical Focus with no critical feats or Impact Critical Shot seems a waste.

As Athaleon alludes to you probably want to look up Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training and see what the Archer archetype is missing out on these days.


Even before AWT, the Archer archetype was worse than vanilla Fighter due to Gloves of Dueling.


Here he is as a Fighter. We can make him better than he was. Better, stronger, faster. Should Clustered Shots be just after ManyShot? Why doesn't Bullseye Shot and Vital Strike work well together? Impact Critical Shot looks nice, but where to put it? What other Critical feats could I use? Let's rebuild him.

Human Fighter Feats
Human Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus)
1st Level (Weapon and Armor Proficiency)
1st Level Class Feat (Point-Blank Shot)
1st Level Feat (Precise Shot)
2nd Level Class Feat (Rapid Shot)
2nd Level (Bravery +1)
3rd Level Feat (Deadly Aim)
3rd Level (Armor Training 1)
4th Level Class Feat (Weapon Specialization)
5th Level Feat (Bullseye Shot)
5th Level (Weapon Training 1)
6th Level Class Feat (Manyshot)
6th Level (Bravery +2)
7th Level Feat (Snap Shot)
7th Level (Armor Training 2)
8th Level Class Feat (Improved Critical)
9th Level Feat (Critical Focus)
9th Level (Weapon Training 2)
10th Level Class Feat (Vital Strike)
10th Level (Bravery +3)
-------------
11th Level Feat (Devastating Strike)
11th Level (Armor Training 3)
12th Level Class Feat (Greater Weapon Focus)
13th Level Feat (Greater Weapon Specialization)
13th Level (Weapon Training 3)
14th Level Class Feat (Clustered Shots)
14th Level (Bravery +4)
15th Level Feat (Improved Vital Strike)
15th Level (Armor Training 4)
16th Level Class Feat (Improved Initiative)
17th Level Feat (Improved Precise Shot)
17th Level (Weapon Training 4)
18th Level Class Feat (Pinpoint Targeting)
18th Level (Bravery +5)
19th Level Feat (Quick Draw)
19th Level (Armor Mastery)
20th Level Class Feat (Greater Vital Strike)
20th Level (Weapon Mastery)


Bullseye shot and vital strike do work together. It's just that they suck horribly, and using both drops the one advantage of vital strike - moving & attacking. Dropping both entirely would free up the feats to get clustered shots earlier and perhaps impact critical shot, and maybe the AWT or AAT feats.

Pinpoint targeting is fairly pointless too - it doesn't work with vital strike and at 18th level a single attack is not enough. It is a good point to get staggering critical though.


Kelldor wrote:
Why doesn't Bullseye Shot and Vital Strike work well together?

To expand a bit on what avr already said, it's that they don't work well with Rapid Shot (and full attacks in general). Archery isn't considered the generally strongest martial style because of high damage per shot, quite the contrary. It's considered that mainly because an archer can almost always full attack (against both strong and weak targets), and because an archer has two feats that significantly enhance full attacks (Rapid Shot and Manyshot).

Using a bow to make a single attack is kinda like using Lionel Messi as goalie, or Tom Brady as wide receiver (I hope I used that right).


I took Bullseye Shot to offset the negative from Deadly Aim. But, I can't use Bullseye Shot with a full-attack action. Deadly Aim is nice for damage, especially with Rapid Shot and ManyShot, but Rapid Shot reduces your chance to hit as well, in addition to the attack roll minus from Deadly Aim. Bullseye Shot is limited to an attack action, but then does it work with Snap Shot? If not, then it's too limited, and I have to drop it.

Rereading Snap Shot, do I need to have Quick Draw and Combat Reflexes to do more than one Attack of Opportunity in a round? I can never remember if drawing and nocking an arrow is a free action or not. If I do need them, Snap Shot is in the wrong place, and so is Quick Draw. Snap Shot is almost a necessity, tho. Unless all the archer is going to do is shoot from a distance.

Reading up on Impact Critical Shot, that seems like a very limited use. I'd rather increase the damage from a critical than get a Bull Rush or Trip maneuver. How often would that Bull Rush or Trip happen? The same with Staggering Critical.

Pinpoint Targeting is to offset the higher negative from Deadly Aim. Deadly Aim is giving a -4 to attack but a +8 to damage at level 16.

You're not always going to be able to do a full-attack, shouldn't you be buffing up the attack action as well then?

The way I see it, archer feats have to do one of the following:

1.) Increase the ability of any arrows fired to hit the target (including Critical Hits)
2.) Increase the damage of each arrow (including Critical Damage)
3.) Increase the number of arrows per round

Anything else isn't killing the monsters, right?


The attack action is a specific type of standard action and isn't just an attack. So no, it wont work with AoO form snap shot.

You do need combat reflexes to make more than 1 AoO a round.

That's the thing about archery, you SHOULD be able to make a full attack like 99+% of the time. The only time you can't is if ALL enemies are around corners so you can't attack them. So buffing the attack action that you use < 1% of the time isn't worth a feat. Especially since you're not getting a big return since 1d8 isn't a huge amount.

Thus why anything revolving making one 1 attack instead of a full attack is usually not a good choice for a typical archer.

Also, with all your bonuses you shouldn't need to worry about the penalties you're taking.

example At lv 16 you have a +16+dex(7)+2weapon focuses+3WT + magic bow(4) + gloves of dueling(2)
that's a 34 to hit. your penalties puts you at +28/+28/+23/+18/+13
a typical CR 16 enemy has AC of 31 that means your attacks need 3/3/8/13/18
And this fighter isn't even fully build out to max the accuracy. There are various magic items to get a few more +'s from.
So what I'm trying to say, your accuracy should be quite fine.


Ok, then, so reworking the first 10 levels, it looks like this:

Human Fighter Feats
Human Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus)
1st Level (Weapon and Armor Proficiency)
1st Level Class Feat (Point-Blank Shot)
1st Level Feat (Precise Shot)
2nd Level Class Feat (Rapid Shot)
2nd Level (Bravery +1)
3rd Level Feat (Deadly Aim)
3rd Level (Armor Training 1)
4th Level Class Feat (Weapon Specialization)
5th Level Feat (Quick Draw)
5th Level (Weapon Training 1)
6th Level Class Feat (Manyshot)
6th Level (Bravery +2)
7th Level Feat (Snap Shot)
7th Level (Armor Training 2)
8th Level Class Feat (Combat Reflexes)
9th Level Feat (Improved Critical)
9th Level (Weapon Training 2)
10th Level Class Feat (Clustered Shots)
10th Level (Bravery +3)

Clustered Shots is only useful against something with Damage Reduction - how often does that happen at lower levels? Also, I'm not sure if Quick Draw is necessary or not for reloading an arrow. If not, I need something else to put in it's place. It is necessary for pulling a bow out at the beginning of combat, right?

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