so exceptional pull doesn't add damage, it just lets you use bows that have a higher str rating.
you only need one feat to get a light crossbow to work- it goes to free action after rapid reload. So little need for crossbow mastery.
The thing I would focus on with crossbows is the crit range- it is 19-20. So you can do a build focusing on critical hits with it.
Also, if you are going to go with crossbows, then you need a bolt ace, which is a gunslinger archetype that does crossbows. At level 5 of that, you get dex to damage AND the crit multiplier goes up by 1. So a light crossbow would be 1d8, 19-20/x2. Which is basically a ranged falcata at that point.
The advantage of long bows is that they are simpler to get working- you just need generic ranged feats. No need for special classes, so you have a lot of options. You will need to go between dex and str though.
Crossbows can be shot prone and 1 handed. They are also simple weapons.
Shooting prone imposes severe penalties. Shooting one-handed also imposes penalties (-2, ranging up to -4 or higher depending on weaponry). Trying to do both as once is just a complete waste of your action economy.
The only kind of simple weapon crossbows are Light or Heavy crossbows. Underwater Crossbows, or Hand/Repeating (or Repeating Hand) Crossbows are all Exotic, and require a feat just to use without incurring yet another -4 penalty. Most Bow users are already completely Martial proficient, and as such don't need to spend that feat. They also don't need to spend 2 or 3 feats just to be able to function, any Martial-based character can just carry a Strength-equivalent bow and pluck away.
@ Bober: The big benefit to Crossbows via Bolt Ace is being less MAD than an Archer is, since they are using their Dexterity bonus for everything; AC, Attack, Damage, Initiative, Reflex Saves, and so on. Unfortunately, such PCs don't get that benefit until 5th level, 25% of a PCs career, and it's the most commonly played part as well. They're also more feat-intensive than Bows (since you need reloading feats as well as the required ranged feats), and have less things going for them (certain good feats don't work with Crossbows, like Manyshot).
You need class features that greatly supplement the Crossbow options (such as what the Bolt Ace receives) just to make them competent. Compared to other classes that possess similar class features for Bows, you're never going to get ahead of them.
**EDIT** The only other benefit to Crossbows versus Bows is that they have better critical multipliers, but again, only because of class features that greatly supplement the option. A Crossbow is usually 19-20/X2. With Bolt Ace at 5th level, it's 19-20/X3. With Improved Critical at 8th level (9th at the earliest), it's 17-20/X3. At best, a Longbow can get 19-20/X3 with Improved Critical (or some other effect), which means Crossbows are twice as likely to land a critical hit.
level 5 bolt ace makes the crossbow's stats strictly superior to a longbow, outside of having to feat tax into full attacking, the ability to touch ac mitigates some of the feat loss, but not all imo. You can also use an oversized crossbow, but not an oversized longbow.
It really depends on the classes you've got going and builds you're aiming for.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are looking for generic builds, then there is very, very little room to debate- take a long bow.
Crossbows can be very powerful, allowing you to go pure dex and a crit build...but that is only when you take a very particular build. Otherwise, they are inferior.
People only 'settle' for crossbows. And that is usually when they lack the str to make slings work.
|
so exceptional pull doesn't add damage, it just lets you use bows that have a higher str rating.Are you sure about it?
"Exceptional Pull: You have mastered techniques to get the most out of composite bows.
Benefits: When you wield a ranged weapon that you are proficient with and that has a strength rating, add 2 to the weapon's strength rating. You don't take a penalty on attack rolls for having a Strength modifier lower than the strength rating of a weapon, provided you're proficient with that weapon."It says you add 2 to the weapon STR rating, not to your mod. That's why it says you don't get the penalty for having a STR mod lower than the rating.
So if the longbow has a STR rating of +3, you add +2 to it, without getting the penalty for not having the +5 STR mod.
Can someone confirm this?
if you have a strength modifier of +3 with a +3 composite bow, exceptional pull makes it a +5 bow that your 3 strength modifier doesn't take a penalty for... but you can grow into without having to rebuy a new bow... great for when your+3 composite bow has a+1, holy. And Flaming burst magical properties on it, and you now have a +5 STR modifier. In other words, it doesn't add the strength damage if you don't have the STR mod qualification for the damage.
|
|
If you are looking for generic builds, then there is very, very little room to debate- take a long bow.
Crossbows can be very powerful, allowing you to go pure dex and a crit build...but that is only when you take a very particular build. Otherwise, they are inferior.
People only 'settle' for crossbows. And that is usually when they lack the str to make slings work.
In the long run, it doesn't matter as much as people think. Ranged combat is mostly about getting more shots off. A crossbow ranger gets crossbow mastery ignoring prerequisites at level 6 or 7... (if you are using ultimate campaign, any ranger worth his salt will retrain their unneeded reload feats at this time) at level 10 a crossbow ranger can be within 10-15 points per full attack from a longbow". The lack of manyshot means they can pick up clustered shots earlier, and are more likly to get improve critical. Both would be dealing between 125 to 150 a round
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The advantage of the crossbow is that it is a simple weapon. Other than commoners, druids and wizards all classes are proficient with crossbows. This means that just about anyone can use one without penalties. They are cheap and easy to use so are perfect for equipping town militia or other conscripted forces. They are not designed as, and are not a weapon for a skilled warrior. Anyone who can use and afford a bow is going to use it. This is not only true in the game, but also was the reason the crossbow became popular in historical times. The saying was you can teach a person to use a crossbow in an afternoon, but to get an archer you start with his grandfather.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mysterious Stranger is spot on.
As the writer of Exceptional Pull, I can confirm that it only increases the maximum strength that can be applied to a composite bow, it doesn't increase the damage unless you have that strength yourself.
This seems like a good opportunity to tell the story behind Exceptional Pull. Back in 2E days, one of my players played fighter/psionicist who had a power that bumped his Strength up (equivalent to Bull's Strength). He carried two composite bows: one for his normal strength and one for his psionically enhanced strength. It felt weird, but it made sense in the rules of the game. When I got the opportunity to write feats for Ranged Tactics, it seemed like a good opportunity to find a way to simplify things for characters like that.
It's not just one feat for the big and nasty ones, it's more than one (presuming you intend to fire more than once a round, which is a good strategy for fighting).
You need one feat (Rapid Reload) to reload a light or hand crossbow as a free action.
You need four feats (Crossbow Mastery, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot) to reload a heavy crossbow as a free action.
Sure, you were going to take Rapid Shot anyway, probably, but if you're planning on using a heavy crossbow you have to take the feat before you can actually use it. All this for what basically amounts to +1 damage and 40 feet of range.
For Crossbows, you're generally want to do light or hand crossbows or go all the way for the Minotaur Double Crossbow from Classic Monsters Revisited (which Crossbow Mastery lets you reload both bolts with a swift or a single bolt with a free action)
Bows are good weapons while crossbows are water balloons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shooting prone imposes severe penalties.
Shooting a crossbow prone imposes no penalty. That's why the initial write-up of Prone Shooter was infamous as a feat that literally did nothing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The advantage of the crossbow is that it is a simple weapon. Other than commoners, druids and wizards all classes are proficient with crossbows. This means that just about anyone can use one without penalties. They are cheap and easy to use so are perfect for equipping town militia or other conscripted forces. They are not designed as, and are not a weapon for a skilled warrior. Anyone who can use and afford a bow is going to use it. This is not only true in the game, but also was the reason the crossbow became popular in historical times. The saying was you can teach a person to use a crossbow in an afternoon, but to get an archer you start with his grandfather.
Which is also why guns were the successor to them, they (guns) were likewise easy to instruct the common conscript in the use of, and of devastating effectiveness in battle. This ease of use is also reflected in the rules by guns being simple... wait, they're exotic? :P
Probably to avoid Pathfinder becoming Gunfinder. So that technological evolution doesn't kill game balance. In a game-balanced world, a martial arts practitioner would have a 50/50 chance to take out a similarly skilled gunman, but as even Bruce Lee knows (knew?), the gun is mightier than the fist.The advantage of the crossbow is that it is a simple weapon. Other than commoners, druids and wizards all classes are proficient with crossbows. This means that just about anyone can use one without penalties. They are cheap and easy to use so are perfect for equipping town militia or other conscripted forces. They are not designed as, and are not a weapon for a skilled warrior. Anyone who can use and afford a bow is going to use it. This is not only true in the game, but also was the reason the crossbow became popular in historical times. The saying was you can teach a person to use a crossbow in an afternoon, but to get an archer you start with his grandfather.Which is also why guns were the successor to them, they (guns) were likewise easy to instruct the common conscript in the use of, and of devastating effectiveness in battle. This ease of use is also reflected in the rules by guns being simple... wait, they're exotic? :P
Magic, due to not being limited by physics or perceptions or realism, has a far greater influence than technology in Pathfinder.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not all weapons have to be equal. The crossbows stats reflect their real world counterparts.
Another thing about crossbows is that they do not have a penalty for having a low if penalty for STR it applies to the damage of all bows, not just composite bows. A rogue with a 7 STR would be much better off spending the feat for repeating crossbow than trying to use a bow.
Hand crossbows have one major advantage and that is they can be easily concealed. They are more of an assassin’s weapon than that of one of war. More often than not they are used with poison which is what is doing the damage. Repeating crossbows can be reloaded as a free action so they allow for more options in combat.
Crossbows are pretty much for characters who unable to use bows, or for niche builds.
Guns are exotic weapons because of the complexity of reloading them. When advance guns become available they should become simple weapons, but at that point you are not really playing Pathfinder.
Funny thing, historical crossbows in 14th century England were given to the elite guards. Genoese mercenaries used crossbows and were well paid to do so.
The crossbow stats reflect one version of the real world. Different interpretations could be made.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Funny thing, historical crossbows in 14th century England were given to the elite guards. Genoese mercenaries used crossbows and were well paid to do so.
The crossbow stats reflect one version of the real world. Different interpretations could be made.
Indeed, the heavy armor piercing that any kind of crossbow provided completely changed the state of warfare. At one point in time the Pope tried to ban crossbows from use because of how devastating they were. Keep in mind that you need an English longbow of just stupid size to match the armor piercing potential of a crossbow. With this one weapon, anyone could kill the most armored lord simply by punching through his armor.
Truly a terrifying weapon of its day, it is a shame that pathfinder doesn't respect the AP capability of the good old crossbow.
Not all weapons have to be equal. The crossbows stats reflect their real world counterparts.
Hardly. There is no way that An arrow shot by lightly strong human (14 str) have as much penetration that a heavy crossbow shot.
Shooting a crossbow prone imposes no penalty. That's why the initial write-up of Prone Shooter was infamous as a feat that literally did nothing.
Shooting prone imposes severe penalties.
Not true. It imposes a -4 AC to every enemy that will run to smack you on the head because you are now a lame duck.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really hate the realism argument. Pathfinder is more than willing and able to make scythes, flails, and starknives viable weapons but suddenly the line in the sand is drawn on crossbows?
Historical accuracy can go bite a banana, PF is heroic fantasy. If you're going to use up limited space in rulebooks I expect better than "worthless for 98% of characters,"
The realism argument is weak. It's also what I call "selective realism". Rules stop to be realistic for whatever the Devs decide it's cool they aren't realistic, but they enforce realism in other things.
For example, Bows are superiors to Crossbows in Pathfinder, because the Devs (or 3.0 devs) decided that drawing arrows out of a quiver was drastically different than drawing, say, darts or javelins out of a quiver. Drawing arrows is a free action. Drawing everything else is a move action. Why? Because whoever wrote the rules clearly had a crush on Legolas. Remove the exception for drawing arrows, and suddenly the adventage in ROF of bows is greatly reduced.
The "crossbows reflect their real world counterpart argument" is flawed, because, as other poster said, you could have different interpretation of the rules, reflecting real world crossbows, and make them better weapons. Some time ago I played with a rule for Crossbows, in which not only they had a "mighty" value to add to damage, but it was on the weapon itself. The shooter did not need to have that value, the crossbow itself had it. So heavy crossbows with Mighty +4 could be bought, and shoot, by STR 10 people. The reloading time was longer if you didn't have 18 STR, but it could be done (with a crank). If you had STR 18, you could use the normal reload time. There you go: a real-world approach for crossbows, in which crossbows don't suck.
In 2e, if my memory serves me well, there was an optional rule that if you had your weapon loaded, you could shoot it at the begining of the round (when you roll initiative) and then act normally, similar to a ready action before the combat start. That was only possible, in general, with crossbows, which allowed you to move with the weapon loaded. There you go, another "real-world-like" rule that could help crossbows.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not true. It imposes a -4 AC to every enemy that will run to smack you on the head because you are now a lame duck.Shooting a crossbow prone imposes no penalty. That's why the initial write-up of Prone Shooter was infamous as a feat that literally did nothing.
Shooting prone imposes severe penalties.
While adding to your AC against ranged attacks. That's not a penalty, it's a trade. :P
This comparison is old, and it always come to this: if you want to focus on a crossbow go Bolt ace, if not, pick up a bow if you can.
In fact, I do think the Bolt ace if superior to the regular archer. Five levels and you have all the essential feats (Point-blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid reload) you add Dex to dmg and get a Crit increment to your crossbow. Later, with Improv. Crit you end up with a Crit range of 17-20 x3, which is amazing.
The archer on the other hand still need to focus on Str to get extra dmg, but needs one feat less to work.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing people seem to be missing is that a crossbow at low levels actually is a much better weapon than a bow. It actually does more damage than a bow, and has a longer range increment. A light crossbow does as much damage as a longbow. It can also be used effectively by just about anyone. Not only is it a simple weapon it also does not take a penalty for having a low STR. All bows take your STR penalty to damage not just composite bows.
Having to reload after firing is only a problem for heavy crossbows. A light crossbow only takes a move action to reload so can be fired every round. At low levels this is not a big deal since you only get a single attack anyways. While not being able to another move action and attack is limiting it’s not really all that bad. With a single feat the light crossbow goes to a free action to reload which puts it on par with a bow.
Crossbows are also significantly cheaper than bows. A light crossbow works out to be about 7.8 GP per point of damage. A normal longbow is about 16.7 per point of damage. Composite bows especially with a STR bonus are even worse. A composite long bow with a STR bonus of +1 works out to be 36.4 GP per point of damage. It also cost 200GP which pretty much puts it out of the range of a first level character.
I am not counting the crossbows that are exotic weapons because I have yet to see an exotic weapon I considered worth spending a feat on. I will point out that inquisitors do get proficiency in hand and repeating crossbows.
Crossbows are good weapons for those that do not have proficiency in martial weapons, or who have dumped STR. They make good secondary weapons for a lot of builds. The swashbuckler who dumped STR to max out DEX, the Halfling rogue looking to get in a ranged sneak attack in the surprise round, and the cleric who wants to be able to do something vs flying targets after he has cast his spell will all find the crossbow an acceptable weapon. If you want to make a crossbow specialist use the bolt ace as several people have suggested.
Shooting prone imposes severe penalties.
If you attempt it close enough to an enemy (or in terrain that allows an enemy to get close enough) that they can attack you with a melee weapon. It's a tactic to protect against enemy ranged attacks, not general use. It's basically a way to get what is effectively a cover bonus against ranged attacks when there's no actual cover; it also makes it easier to get concealment (low brush, knee-high grass).
The only kind of simple weapon crossbows are Light or Heavy crossbows. Underwater Crossbows, or Hand/Repeating (or Repeating Hand) Crossbows are all Exotic,
Underwater crossbows are still simple weapons ("It counts as a heavy crossbow for the purposes of proficiencies and special abilities" and "Anyone proficient with a normal light crossbow can use an underwater light crossbow"). They just cost more, but have a range increment of 20 ft underwater (as opposed to an effective 5 ft range increment for every other non-thrown weapon; thrown weapons being completely ineffective).
Are crossbows "as good" as a composite longbow? No. But there are circumstances where a crossbow will be a better option.
Crossbows doesn't need any investment to be used but it costs much more to be kept competitive and can never really keep up with a bow.
The archer on the other hand still need to focus on Str to get extra dmg, but needs one feat less to work.And gets more attacks.
The investment for worthwhile crossbow use is 5 levels of bolt ace+ crossbow mastery, after which it becomes superior to the longbow. At level 4 gunslinger you take rapid shot + crossbow mastery and you dont even have a level where you can't use rapid shot. Bows get more attacks for like 3 levels maybe.
Part of the issue is that the Bolt Ace is far and away the best option if you want to use a crossbow, but you can make effective use of the Longbow with a great number of classes. Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, two kinds of Chained Monks, Inquisitors, Occultists, Luring Cavaliers, Arrowsong Minstrel Bards, Eldritch Archer Magi, etc. can all make effective use of the longbow; sure some are better than others, but "less good at archery" choices have other things to make up for it.
Part of the issue is that the Bolt Ace is far and away the best option if you want to use a crossbow, but you can make effective use of the Longbow with a great number of classes. Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, two kinds of Chained Monks, Inquisitors, Occultists, Luring Cavaliers, Arrowsong Minstrel Bards, Eldritch Archer Magi, etc. can all make effective use of the longbow; sure some are better than others, but "less good at archery" choices have other things to make up for it.
Thats fair, but as far as martials are concerned I generally support multiclassing within pure martials to begin with.
Bolt ace 5/Other martial X with a heavy crossbow will outperform other Martial X+5 with a bow pretty regularly.
Spellcasting is a whole other bucket of bolts, but for raw weapon damage, heavy crossbows are going to outperform longbows significantly with a 5 level and 2 feat tax, and be generally worse than them any other way.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The investment for worthwhile crossbow use is 5 levels of bolt ace+ crossbow mastery
Or just the Shadowshooting magic weapon special ability.
Two Shadowshooting hand crossbows allow full attacks with both hands every round with no feat or class levels investment required at all.
Granted, if the target makes a save the bolts do 1 damage instead of 1d4, but that's a negligible difference.
The investment for worthwhile crossbow use is 5 levels of bolt ace+ crossbow masteryOr just the Shadowshooting magic weapon special ability.
Two Shadowshooting hand crossbows allow full attacks with both hands every round with no feat or class levels investment required at all.
Granted, if the target makes a save the bolts do 1 damage instead of 1d4, but that's a negligible difference.
While true, I don't see what static modifiers to damage you could possibly have to compensate the low dice damage, the attack penalty from TWF, or the lack or DR bypassing for splitting your weapon enhancements.
Thats fair, but as far as martials are concerned I generally support multiclassing within pure martials to begin with.
Bolt ace 5/Other martial X with a heavy crossbow will outperform other Martial X+5 with a bow pretty regularly.
I guess it comes down to which comes first, the desire to use a crossbow/deal max damage, or the desire to play a specific class. If you're looking to play a specific class, and that class has martial weapon proficiencies and is not the bolt ace gunslinger, you're better off eschewing the crossbow for the longbow.
While true, I don't see what static modifiers to damage you could possibly have to compensate the low dice damage, the attack penalty from TWF, or the lack or DR bypassing for splitting your weapon enhancements.The investment for worthwhile crossbow use is 5 levels of bolt ace+ crossbow masteryOr just the Shadowshooting magic weapon special ability.
Two Shadowshooting hand crossbows allow full attacks with both hands every round with no feat or class levels investment required at all.
Granted, if the target makes a save the bolts do 1 damage instead of 1d4, but that's a negligible difference.
Right, a big part of what helps bolt ace perform is the dex to damage, a bigger part is that when its important, and you're facing something with an AC that doesn't make hitting nearly automatic, you have the ability to fire vs touch ac. I generally view "touch ac at will" as equal or a little superior to multishot.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Two Shadowshooting hand crossbows allow full attacks with both hands every round with no feat or class levels investment required at all.While true, I don't see what static modifiers to damage you could possibly have to compensate the low dice damage, the attack penalty from TWF, or the lack or DR bypassing for splitting your weapon enhancements.
Sneak attack (especially with sniper goggles), Deadly Aim, and Clustered Shots are the most obvious answers.
I've got a Dark Stalker UnRogue NPC who uses various forms of concealment (e.g. deeper darkness, fog cloud, invisibility, et cetera) to enable sneak attacks with short swords and shadowshooting heavy wrist launchers (equivalent to hand crossbows) to terrible effect.
|
|
One could rule that "minimium damage" includes sneak attack, making it only a slight damage boost
Given that you do full precision damage if you roll a 1 on the 1d4 normal bolt damage, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason that the bolt damage being forced to 1 would cause your ability to precisely strike vital spots to suddenly no longer work properly. Any more than a 'flaming' enchantment on the weapon should suddenly be less 'flamey'.
But, yes, one could rule anything.
I guess sneak attack damage could be something. But the 3/4 BAB the -2 from TWF and the -x from deadly aim makes me incline for voting against the build.
The investment for worthwhile crossbow use is 5 levels of bolt ace+ crossbow mastery, after which it becomes superior to the longbow. At level 4 gunslinger you take rapid shot + crossbow mastery and you dont even have a level where you can't use rapid shot. Bows get more attacks for like 3 levels maybe.Crossbows doesn't need any investment to be used but it costs much more to be kept competitive and can never really keep up with a bow.
The archer on the other hand still need to focus on Str to get extra dmg, but needs one feat less to work.And gets more attacks.
Not really, because Manyshot is a thing. It's totally unrealistic, but it is there, and nobody who cares about realism with xbows seem to care about realism with bows, because selective realism.
So the bow will always do at least 1 more attack, even with xbow mastery. Whoever did the rules had a real crush on Legolas, mind you. And did not like William Tell.
And the bow will always do more damage except in the case of Bolt Aces, and even then, for those tables that promote MAD characters, that Bolt Ace will be generally weaker simply because he can't take advantage of being SAD.
In other words, 3.X/Pathfinder was written with Lord of the Rings realism (where everyone and their grandma could use a bow), and not standard realism. Because of that, bows rules and crossbows drool.
If the game were written with standard realism, the Crossbow would not only be more deadly overall (and probably have the Bolt Ace's 5th level ability packed into it), but also be able to affect Touch AC like Firearms do currently. I imagine it's because of this, that Lord of the Rings realism was taken before standard realism.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The heaviest Genovese Crossbows had up to 1200lbs pull. More average crossbows had between 250 and 500lb pulls
The very best of the english longbows are stimated about 160lb top, and that's being drawn by guys the size of a linebacker. Average longbow pull was around 90lb.
In no way the mighty composite longbow should outdamage a crosbow. Not even close. Not even close to be even close. If ypur best mighty longbows, shot by the strongest people, do 1d8+3 or 1d8+4, then the realistic average light crossbow should start at 1d8+5, and the cranked genovese heavy crossbows should do mo less than 1d10+10, at least.
Of course, that would not be balanced. And obviously, game balance should matter more than petty obssession with selective realism, so Xbows should not do 1d10+10. But then, if game balance should matter more than realism... why bows are far better weapons?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The heaviest Genovese Crossbows had up to 1200lbs pull. More average crossbows had between 250 and 500lb pulls
The very best of the english longbows are stimated about 160lb top, and that's being drawn by guys the size of a linebacker. Average longbow pull was around 90lb.
In no way the mighty composite longbow should outdamage a crosbow. Not even close. Not even close to be even close.
Stop putting so much realism into the game selective realism or somebody will feel the urge of linking a youtube video of a chinese girl using her feets to shoot a bow 10 times in six seconds.