Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Silver Crusade

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People like... cute things?


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My take: very much The Force Awakens II. The character and thematic work is outstanding.

Spoiler:
Mark Hamill is excellent, the Rey/Ren/Snoke/Luke dynamic is really mythologically interesting and the actors all crush it. This dynamic also goes in directions you're not really expecting. There's at least of a couple of really cool (and different) lightsabre battles and the film seems to be making at least nods at the neutral viewpoint of the Force from Knights of the Old Republic, which is a nice change from all the Light Side/Dark Side gubbins.

However, the primary First Order/Resistance plot makes even less sense than The Force Awakens. It's very crucially based around a long-running chase sequence and invokes discussions of how lightspeed and hyperspace work, which was an awful idea (don't make the furniture the hinge point of the plot). This film massively contradicts how all the previous movies handled lightspeed (including the rather important new rule The Force Awakens introduced), by which rules this movie would have been over less than 15 minutes into it. I didn't think it was possible, but Rian Johnson managed to do something more stupid than the "being able to see planets in star systems thousands of light-years away blow up instantly" scene in TFA. Congrats on that.

Because the core focus is on Luke/Rey/Ren/Snoke, this doesn't sink the movie at all, but it does mean a lot of teeth-grinding for anyone who likes their movies to have logic, internal consistency and coherent worldbuilding.

Finn was...around, I guess? His story didn't really go anywhere. He could have stayed in a coma for all the difference it made.

Ultimately: somewhat less successful than either The Force Awakens or Rogue One, still better than all of the prequels.

Quote:
1. How annoying are the porgs?

Not really. They're not in it as much as you'd think from the promos and marketing. Certainly not an Ewoks/Jar-Jar situation.

Quote:
2. Is there a reason they are in the movie other than to sell toys?

Basically, to give Chewbacca something to do.

Silver Crusade

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Diego Valdez wrote:

Howdy folks,

I know we're all really excited about Star Wars (I'm going tomorrow night to see it in IMAX!) and since some folks have seen early releases, I just wanted to remind everyone that not everyone will be seeing it on opening night, or even opening weekend. So lets avoid being Sith and posting spoilers. I'm excited to hear what everyone thinks about the movie and I think many others are too, but we can do that in a way that doesn't spoil the movie for anyone else (the Baron's post is an excellent example of how to do this).

Shadow Lodge

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Rysky wrote:
People like... cute things?

BuuUUUUuuUuUUUuUUUuuuuUUUUUUUurrrrrrrrrrppp p

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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People's definition of spoilers varies, please err on the side of adding spoiler tags.


err..

Liberty's Edge

Huh ... ?


What? It's an err. ;)

Shadow Lodge

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CapeCodRPGer wrote:

I just want to know a couple of things.

1. How annoying are the porgs?

2. Is there a reason they are in the movie other than to sell toys?

Spoiler:
Porg annoyance level on 0-10 is 1. They don't do anything narratively they shouldn't, they're just a bit of comic relief at the right time. You don't need to worry about them forming a swarm and taking out the empire (at least in this movie). And if you hate them there's a scene you'll love. CFP

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Thomas Seitz wrote:
err..

As in "err on the side of caution." This means that events and plotlines of a movie should be enclosed in a spoiler. This Public Service Announcement was brought to you by Budweiser, Breakfast of Champions. :D


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What? My brother says that breakfast is that first beer before lunch.


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I think I enjoyed Phantom Menace more than this. I REALLY wanted to like it but it was just . . . TERRIBLE. I'd say 90% of the movie didn't actually make a damn bit of sense. The "plot" is paper thin and some of the character "developments" are even worse. The Poe Dameron storyline is . . . Good God, did these people ever take a script writing class?

I'd go into more, but then I'd have to start getting spoilerey.

I went with seven people, ages 15-50 (I'm not the 50 year old). The two youngest kids were the only two who liked it. The rest of us just stared at each other trying to see if the person we were looking at was the only one who didn't like it. We agreed it wasn't very good.

I hope everyone else likes it.

I'm truly upset about this because this isn't a case of "nerding" out. I really want to know how Rian Johnson got through the first cut of that movie without asking himself, "What did I just do?"

Plus side: SOME of the Luke stuff is entertaining. The Rey/Finn Lightsaber fight is well choreographed.


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I am a 50 year old - and I like it a lot.


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I'm with justmebd on this one (though I can at least say I liked it more than Phantom Menace). It has some cool ideas and the visuals were incredible, but the writing wasn't very good.

Minimal spoilers, but just to be careful...:
The movie reeks of its script being chopped to pieces by a committee. There is so much character development that heads in the direction of: 'This character learns something about themselves, or about being less idealistic and more realistic' but none of this character development is allowed to come to fruition. Every character's arc (other than Luke's) is abruptly cut off or outright reversed in order to maintain the status quo established at the beginning of the movie.

It feels like the movie Rian Johnson set out to write was about about people learning from their failures. We have *SPOILER CHARACTER A* leading the charge on that front with a gigantic failure, but all the side-stories and narrative arcs in this movie are about people failing as well. The problem is that this kind of narrative arc is only satisfying if characters learn from their failures and grow, and for the vast majority of characters, this arc never comes to fruition. We never get to see them learning and growing. Its like the 'satisfying conclusion' part of each character's story was just excised out. Now we just have people failing at things... then we just jump into another character's story to distract the audience from the lack of payoff.

As a result the story feels deeply emotionally unsatisfying.

And I'm trying extremely hard to avoid thinking about plot holes (Its swiss cheese and I just don't want to admit it yet).

Also, JOKES. This movie has so many jokes/quips/silly bits, and most are not good. We got quite a few groans in the audience in my theater.


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A question for the dissatisfied:
Might the narratively unsatisfying elements some hold be generally explained away with the forced last-minute changes due to the passing of Carrie Fischer?

I am not arguing this is so, merely asking - I've not seen it, yet, and am just wondering if that's a part of it.


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Tacticslion wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I am not arguing this is so, merely asking - I've not seen it, yet, and am just wondering if that's a part of it.

Maybe for one particular scene that I don't think anyone's brought up yet. Aside from that scene, I doubt it.

I would say it was better than VII, but not quite as "Star Warsy" as I'd like. Chunks of it feel to me more like they had certain scenes/setpieces they wanted to use, but not enough runtime to really connect everything together.


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Tacticslion wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I am not arguing this is so, merely asking - I've not seen it, yet, and am just wondering if that's a part of it.

No, because

Spoiler:
Absolutely nothing was changed. Johnson and Kennedy apparently discussed tweaking the film so that Leia could pass away during the movie, but it wasn't possible without extensive reshoots and Johnson was keen that 100% of Fisher's material got on-screen. There was also a problem having Han die in VII and Leia pass in VIII, it felt too much. So instead they'll do something in IX to address it.


John Napier 698 wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
err..
As in "err on the side of caution." This means that events and plotlines of a movie should be enclosed in a spoiler. This Public Service Announcement was brought to you by Budweiser, Breakfast of Champions. :D

I'm aware but there's also "err" like the sound people make.


So I saw The Last Jedi. Here's my take, from a casual perspective, its an entertaining movie. Usual top notch special effects, music etc. But, the story problems I had with the Force Awakens are just as prevalent in the Last Jedi, perhaps more so as character motivations can't be really investigated to the degree they need to be, and so even through I could see all the "twists" minutes before they happened, it wasn't at time clear why the situation needed to go down they way it did. I can think of one sequence that was built up solely to provide a "gotcha" moment for the audience. But for the characters involved, the logic of what went down is non-sensical.

So that is why there is divided opinion here. If you love space opera, this movie fits the bill. If you want something that takes what was built before and expands on it, you don't really get that. For example, small spoiler, at the start of the movie, Luke is given back his original lightsaber, but not one line of dialog about it being lost and how did Rey find it. Just lots of crap like this in the movie that turns me off. So, to me its like seeing add for a Big Mac on TV (made by Corporate Chefs at Mcdonalds headquarters) and then going to a actual Mcdonalds and getting a soggy burger with too much secret sauce and the pickle leaning out made by some teenager who didn't give a crap what the final product tastes like.

Scarab Sages

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My initial reactions:

Good movie. Felt bloated, like a wee bit too long here, mehness there, I wouldn't give any awards for editing. I had no problems with the main driver of the plot, but the Ach-To stuff being conveniently simultaneous was probably my mainest gripe.

The humor fit right in with the Lucas established tone of the prequel trilogy, which is fine by me. I enjoy those movies. Maybe a bit too much tongue in cheek, but it never distracted. Though maybe some of that stuff (which filled the packed theater with laughter) was really what my film tastes were nudging towards the cutting room floor.

Anyway, it gets the Arch stamp of approval, and fits right there in the sweet spot of a good but not amazing film.


Entertaining movie but I think I'll wait for cable TV to see Episode IX.

Force Awakens paid tribute to a New Hope while this was just a bad remake of Empire Strikes Back.


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Saw this last night.

Good movie but felt strange. At times was definitely a Star Wars movie and other times it felt more...adult?

I think that the themes of regular people having to make hard decisions and non-regular people having moral failings / making bad judgments were at the forefront of this movie and people are having a hard time with that.

I also have a very different definition of what a plot hole is than most people I guess. For instance: In BACK TO THE FUTURE, George and Larraine McFly not recognizing their son Marty as their friend from the 1950's is a PLOT HOLE.

A character making a decision that you dont like because it's not what you thought up in your head canon? Not so much.

I liked THE LAST JEDI. Do I feel that it suffered from a weaker than usual middle? Yes. But it wasn't as weak as the middle portions of RETURN OF THE JEDI. And like RETURN, THE LAST JEDI builds towards an extended finale that is pretty strong.

I really don't get fans sometimes, which is why I think that creators and filmmakers shouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in what fans say or think. Soooooo many people complained that THE FORCE AWAKENS hewed too closely to the OT especially STAR WARS (1977).

THE LAST JEDI actually changes things. It doesn't hew too closely to sacred cows and throws a wrench into the status quo BIG TIME. To say that it's a rehash of Empire is kind of lazy. Superficially I can see where someone could see that if they were barely paying attention to what was actually going on on the screen. But this movie and Empire are saying two completely different things thematically. This movie despite where our heroes are at the end of it leaves you with a little more hope. Are there familiar elements? OF COURSE. IT'S A STAR WARS movie. but on that same token in tone, it's THE LEAST Star Wars of the Star Wars films. I stopped to consider how that movie ends and where everyone is at by the closing credits and I'm kinda interested and excited to see what's going to happen next and how it's going to end. It also tells us something about the nature of the force and who our heroes are and CAN be.

I'm also going on record that Kylo Ren might be my favorite character in the movie in terms of what Adam Driver brings to his performance. Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker is also AMAZING as he shows us a side of Luke that we haven't quite seen before and he straight up NAILS every scene that he's in.

Right now the movies in my order of preference:
THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, STAR WARS, THE LAST JEDI, ROGUE ONE, THE FORCE AWAKENS, REVENGE OF THE SITH, THE PHANTOM MENACE, ATTACK OF THE CLONES.


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VIII was better than episode VII and it actually manages to surprise you a couple of times. It's NOT the best SW film at all, but at least it manages to move things in a new direction.
All in all I'd give it 7/10


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ShinHakkaider wrote:

Saw this last night.

Good movie but felt strange. At times was definitely a Star Wars movie and other times it felt more...adult?

I think that the themes of regular people having to make hard decisions and non-regular people having moral failings / making bad judgments were at the forefront of this movie and people are having a hard time with that.

I also have a very different definition of what a plot hole is than most people I guess. For instance: In BACK TO THE FUTURE, George and Larraine McFly not recognizing their son Marty as their friend from the 1950's is a PLOT HOLE.

A character making a decision that you dont like because it's not what you thought up in your head canon? Not so much.

I liked THE LAST JEDI. Do I feel that it suffered from a weaker than usual middle? Yes. But it wasn't as weak as the middle portions of RETURN OF THE JEDI. And like RETURN, THE LAST JEDI builds towards an extended finale that is pretty strong.

I really don't get fans sometimes, which is why I think that creators and filmmakers shouldn't put a tremendous amount of stock in what fans say or think. Soooooo many people complained that THE FORCE AWAKENS hewed too closely to the OT especially STAR WARS (1977).

THE LAST JEDI actually changes things. It doesn't hew too closely to sacred cows and throws a wrench into the status quo BIG TIME. To say that it's a rehash of Empire is kind of lazy. Superficially I can see where someone could see that if they were barely paying attention to what was actually going on on the screen. But this movie and Empire are saying two completely different things thematically. This movie despite where our heroes are at the end of it leaves you with a little more hope. Are there familiar elements? OF COURSE. IT'S A STAR WARS movie. but on that same token in tone, it's THE LEAST Star Wars of the Star Wars films. I stopped to consider how that movie ends and where everyone is at by the closing credits and I'm kinda interested and excited to see what's going to happen next and...

you said this movie is better than rogue one.

That is unpossible.


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It definitely did not tread the same ground as previous installments. I’ll take that as a positive, because it was both entertaining and thought-provoking. It turns a lot of tropes sideways and makes you think about what it means to be a leader and a follower. Plus MH’s performance as Luke is so nuanced that it gives real depth to the character and makes you see that he’s struggling with questions that are not so easy as “light” vs. “dark.”

I’ve found myself thinking a lot about it since seeing it, and the more I do, the more I want to see it again. There was one sub-plot (with Finn) that felt forced and maybe could have been cut to bring the viewing time down — but I like that character, so I was glad to see him get that extra screen time, and the new characters introduced by it were also interesting. Is it the best Star Wars movie ever? No, but it’s not a failure because of that. It’s a rock-solid entry to the series and a definite MUST-SEE.

Best of all, I think, is that this film REALLY sets the entire Star Wars universe up to be able to go in ANY direction now. Not just with Episode IX, but with all of the other films to come. In that way, this was a film that had to be made. The mold had to be broken. I, for one, am thrilled by this film and excited to see what comes next.

Silver Crusade

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I really liked the plot lines dealing with the jedi/sith characters. Interesting stories, good performances, etc.

But the rest of it felt really forced, drawn out, and pointless. There were lots of good moments, and I liked the characters involved, but there was also a lot of bad fridge logic holding it all together.

Overall, better than the prequel trilogy, not as good as the original trilogy, which is the same thing I said about The Force Awakens and Rogue One. But I'd put this one behind Force Awakens and Rogue One overall.

Shadow Lodge

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Spoiler:

Loved: The Rey/Luke Storyline. It was funny, moving, and really drove the plot to whereever its going.

Liked: Fin /Rose arc. At least the sneak on board the impenetrable starship and do something to it. Classic Genre. but it really needed more time. Phasma still needs a win or at least a good fight to establish some credentials. Fins motivations for being entirely into Rey (to the point of it being the only thought in his head) Need a little work.

The biggest problem is that it was tied to..

Poes arc. Why on earth can't the empire warp a ship in front of them ? That's kinda why you have an armada. You're all going to a secret rebel base anyway. if you die, there's no point in a secret rebel base. The secret rebel base has a bunch of old junk. There's no point in NOT telling everyone you're heading there. its needless melodrama. If people can blip off and come back, they're not blipping off as many people as possible because....? This just.. made no sense. I think having princess leia saved this from the cutting room floor.

[/spoiler]


BigNorseWolf wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

[/spoiler]

Yes, This.

Except the Finn arc, complete waste of time. You remove it from the movie and nothing changes. That's a problem.

Liberty's Edge

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Just saw the movie - it was absolutely fantastic!!!

Can’t say enough about it - it was a great movie and now I can’t wait for the next one (fortunately I’ll be seeing Last Jedi a couple more times over the next few weeks, so that’ll help :)

Dark Archive

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Right now the movies in my order of preference:

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, STAR WARS, THE LAST JEDI, ROGUE ONE, THE FORCE AWAKENS, REVENGE OF THE SITH, THE PHANTOM MENACE, ATTACK OF THE CLONES.

Where would you put Return of the Jedi?


Let's remember to err folks! ;)


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baron arem heshvaun wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

Right now the movies in my order of preference:

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, STAR WARS, THE LAST JEDI, ROGUE ONE, THE FORCE AWAKENS, REVENGE OF THE SITH, THE PHANTOM MENACE, ATTACK OF THE CLONES.
Where would you put Return of the Jedi?

I literally just finished rewatching it just before going to see THE LAST JEDI. How did I forget it?

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, STAR WARS, THE LAST JEDI, ROGUE ONE, THE FORCE AWAKENS, RETURN OF THE JEDI, REVENGE OF THE SITH, THE PHANTOM MENACE, ATTACK OF THE CLONES.


Really?!! PM isn't LAST?!!


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Really?!! PM isn't LAST?!!

It's personal preference really. The cringeworthy so called romance between Padme and Anakin is THE WORST. The Anakin / Dooku flight is dumb and poorly shot. The Yoda Dooku fight is hot garbage.

Say what you want about THE PHANTOM MENACE (and trust me I've said PLENTY) at least Lucas tried to do something a little different with it in terms of the core story. The Pod race is a wonder to behold on the big screen and the final battle between Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Maul is probably one of the best lightsaber battles ever.

Yeah the TPM gave us Jar Jar but ATTACK OF THE CLONES gave us THIS which is, IMHO INFINITELY WORSE


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I guess I was the only one that liked the Yoda Dooku fight then...


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Really?!! PM isn't LAST?!!

I think even on a normal day PHANTOM MENACE is a much better (well, slightly better) movie than ATTACK OF THE CLONES. If you dip into the PHANTOM EDIT version, I think it comfortably moves PM clear of REVENGE OF THE SITH as well.

PHANTOM MENACE gets its primary complaints from two things, really: Jar-Jar and Anakin. Anakin doesn't show up until the film is about a third over and surprisingly doesn't too much that's annoying until the silly ending "blowing up the droid ship by accident/Force" thing. He's also in the film's best set piece, the pod racing sequence. Anakin is irritating but bearable.

I find Jar-Jar is extremely easy to tune out and the PHANTOM EDIT basically strips him out of the film almost altogether. No problem.

THE PHANTOM MENACE also has several notable strengths over the other two films. It has Liam Neeson, who shows up and Liam Neesons his way through the movie. He takes the worst dialogue Lucas can throw at him and delivers it with gravitas and seriousness, even when it's moronic. Natalie Portman also doesn't phone in her performance quite as badly as she does in the later two films. TPM also has a surprising lack of plastic CGI overload. There's a fair bit, but mainly for environments you couldn't do otherwise (like the underwater city and Coruscant) and also a lot of use of real sets, location shooting and also real models for the battle scenes.

TPM is also surprisingly crisply edited and paced. AotC and RotS have these awfully-written, woodenly-delivered scenes that just go on forever. TPM cuts between scenes pretty quickly, so even if something is going on that is pure BS (hello midichlorians exposition!) it generally ends pretty quickly and we cut to something more intriguing (such as asking why Terence Stamp is even in this picture).

Finally, TPM has the best soundtrack and the best lightsabre battle out of the entire series, all nine films to date, which is a pretty big achievement.

It's still not a great movie, but I can see strong arguments for not having it in last place.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
I guess I was the only one that liked the Yoda Dooku fight then...

Youre not the only one but as someone who is a huge fan of actual fight choreography? that Yoda / Dooku fight was just..ugh.


So you're saying I don't like fight choreography? Because I can honestly say I didn't enjoy Iron Fist because of that...


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
So you're saying I don't like fight choreography? Because I can honestly say I didn't enjoy Iron Fist because of that...

I was talking about ME. MY preferences. I wasnt aiming anything derogatory at you.

And yeah, I wasn't a fan of IRON FIST either but after finding out the short shrift they gave to Finn Jones in terms of prep time? I can honestly say that the fault wasn't his. This was entirely the fault of whoever was in charge of production.


I liked it.

I am not a super fan of the Star Wars movies, just a regular fan.

The acting is most certainly the driving force - characters new and old hit their marks.

Sovereign Court

Thomas Seitz wrote:
Really?!! PM isn't LAST?!!

ATOC onslaught of one liners from nearly every character is also unbearable.

Dark Archive

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Have not seen Last yet, but historical anecdote regarding AotC..

Attack of the Clow Clones...:
So I'd worked a double shift the day before and I got shanghaied to go see Ep. II at a local theatre.

No lie, I'd pass out when certain music would start playing (the 'romance theme', as it were) and wake up when the action themes would come on.

At the end of the movie most of my friends were speechless at the drivel of the movie, to which I honestly responded 'What drivel?'.

"You didn't see the Anakin/Padme scenes? You never got up from your seat!"

It took watching the entire movie months later to see what the beef was about the movie, and yeah, turned it from a 'not too bad' to 'why did I waste time and money on this when I could have been sleeping -- which I apparently did for a third of the movie!?'


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Really?!! PM isn't LAST?!!

Nope. Last is definitely Attack of the Clones. Phantom Menace may have several annoyances (Jar-Jar, Jake Lloyd’s performance, the pod race, the final space battle) but it does have the best lightsaber duel (though both Force Awakens and Last Jedi compete with it) and it has two really interesting characters in it while Clones and Sith have none.


My thoughts as a pretty big fan...

Lots of Last Jedi Spoilers:
Put simply, this movie felt a bit... incomplete. I think a lot of that had to do with the main framing device. In a sense, the main plot of this movie is about one day long, although the jumping back-and-forth makes it a bit hard to tell when exactly certain things happened.

Rey's training was good, and the change in the First Order's leadership was a surprise, but in many ways the movie ended the same way it began: The Resistance on the run and looking for allies. Both sides are a bit more beat-up and lost some of their things, but overall, the story just didn't feel like it moved that much. For something based so heavily on The Hero's Journey, it's... odd.

I'm reserving my final judgment until I see Episode 9. If 9 successfully brings things to a satisfying conclusion, I think I'll be happy with this film. Until then, I'm basically ambivalent.

Silver Crusade

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It was glorious. So many favourite moments.

Commander Holdo is now my favourite SW character.


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I'm with you Rysky. Holdo was amazing. I also enjoyed Benecio del Toro's character, I thought he had a LOT to say in just a few minutes of time. I could go on about it but I don't wanna spoil anything. Let's just say that I think DJ was the fourth most important character in that movie after Luke, Rey and Kylo.

Shadow Lodge

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RE Holdo uber spoilers:

Not letting people know the plan was just was just needless melodrama to drive the plot. Which I hate.

I get that its a heroic sacrifice and thats a thing, but having your Admiral do a suicide run when you are low on troops and leadership is monumentally stupid. Assuming that there's not an autopilot option (safety protocols say "do WHAT?") Bob the plucky engineer from reclamation is probably just as willing to make the sacrifice and a lot less valuable to lose than an admiral with an irreplaceable skill set/ talent. (Sorry bob)

Shadow Lodge

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trollerific:

Also glad to see that luke surpased Yoda in learning to troll his students. Yoda, the lightning was good. The Phantasm through 9,000 rounds of at at walker fire? Masterclass.

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Pretty sure the reason she didn’t announce the plan was due to the issues they were already having with deserters, she didn’t want to start a panic.

And asking one of your subordinates to suicide for ya would be a tough pill to swallow, and with Leia conscious again that engineer is probably more valuable to the resistance she might have been thinking.

Shadow Lodge

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Spoiler:

1) Which ship would you abandon first?

- We're heading for a secret rebel base, we have just enough fuel to get nearby, then we'll escape

-We're low on fuel and there's a point to this, really. Honest. We're not just stalling here because we're out of ideas. The escape pods are not being reserved for the important people, which you're not.

I mean, if the place had its own rebel starkiller project THAT might be worth getting everyone killed to protect. But what it had was a bunch of pretty snow foxes and some rusted farm equipment.

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