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Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Liberty's Edge

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Black Dougal wrote:
I am waiting for Rey to say :" I hate Water, its smooth and slippery, and it gets everywhere!"

No danger of that, Lucas didn't write any of this dialog.

We're good


Yeah the only input I think George had was "Make sure you get a decent lightsabre battle in the second one."

Dark Archive

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The Official Poster


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Leia in the centre...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

;_;

Awesome.


A fitting tribute for Mrs. Fisher. ;_;


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
jocundthejolly wrote:
Have to see movie of course but I'm uncomfortable with the implied sexual violence in the Snoke-Rey scene.
Wow, I definitively didn't see that! In fact, I just watched the trailer again (for about the twentieth time :) and Snoke is pretty clearly torturing Rey - she's in physical agony. I certainly don;y see any kind of "sexual violence". I think you might be reading something into that which isn't there?
It's only a second or two long and we're seeing it completely out of context, but that scene made me uncomfortable too. It wouldn't be the first time that the depiction of physically torturing a woman in mass media carried a subtext (or implicit meaning) of sexual assault for titillation purposes. To be clear: I certainly don't think that (director) Rian Johnson or his assistant directors/camera folk had that intent consciously in their heads while framing/setting up and shooting that particular shot. And yeah, it's totally out of context. But I had the exact same immediate visceral response that JtJ had when I first saw it.

I'm sorry, dread lady slaad, but I just don't see that here.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
It does seem to be less derivative than TFA.

It does? We get walkers. Rey's training looks just like Luke's in The Empire Strikes Back. Kylo Ren's face is scarred. (I mean - Jeez! - the closest thing to a surprise in TFA was that Ren's face WASN'T scarred, and now we lost even that!) Kylo demonstrates great ability piloting a one-man starship. It looks like Kylo is considering turning good, like Vader in Return of the Jedi. We see a cute little furry alien, like in RotJ. It looks like Snoke is using the Force to torture Rey and try to turn her to the dark side, as in RotJ. The trailer makes it look like Rey is joining Kylo, just like the trailer for RotJ made it look like Luke was joining Vader.

May I ask what in this trailer DOESN'T look derivative?


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Chewie Flying the Falcon by himself


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aaron Bitman wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
It does seem to be less derivative than TFA.

It does? We get walkers. Rey's training looks just like Luke's in The Empire Strikes Back. Kylo Ren's face is scarred. (I mean - Jeez! - the closest thing to a surprise in TFA was that Ren's face WASN'T scarred, and now we lost even that!) Kylo demonstrates great ability piloting a one-man starship. It looks like Kylo is considering turning good, like Vader in Return of the Jedi. We see a cute little furry alien, like in RotJ. It looks like Snoke is using the Force to torture Rey and try to turn her to the dark side, as in RotJ. The trailer makes it look like Rey is joining Kylo, just like the trailer for RotJ made it look like Luke was joining Vader.

May I ask what in this trailer DOESN'T look derivative?

I think that people are just looking for things not to like to the point where everything resembles something else and despite that, these movies take place in the same universe as the previous three and there are going to be some similarities.

There are X-wings and Tie fighters in this movie, is that derivative?
because if THAT'S considered derivative then you might have a point re: the walkers but it's really not so you don't?

And if the vehicles are derivative then are the fact that there are lightsabers in this movie derivative? Because there were lightsabers in the originals?

Rey's training in the trailer looks like TRAINING. There's nothing that ties it to Luke's in Empire. I might be remembering it wrong but Luke only ignites his saber in the Tree on Dagobah. He never swings it around practicing forms under Yoda's tutelage. He also could barely move the X-Wing out of the bog while Rey is in a meditative state and is able to forcefully shatter and crack solid rock.

Luke is clearly afraid of the power that Rey wields. Yoda chided Luke for not being focused enough and not believing in his own ability enough. How are these two things even remotely similar based on what you saw in 2 and half minute trailer?

Kylo was struggling with good in the last film and we see him still (possibly) struggling in this one. That doesn't mean that he's mimicking Vader. Vader NEVER STRUGGLED until he saw Luke dying at the hands of Palpatine in the 2nd Death Star throne room. So again, what are you talking about?

That furry alien (the Porg?) looks NOTHING like an EWOK. And one (maybe two) furry alien is all that's allowed in the Star Wars universe?

What part of the ROTJ trailer made it look like Luke was joining Vader? the shot with the elevator door opening to reveal the both of them in it? Especially when literally the next shot in the trailer is a clip from their lightsaber duel where theyre CLEARLY not on the same side.

So no I really dont see any of your points as it being derivative.

I see it being a STAR WARS movie.


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ShinHakkaider wrote:
Aaron Bitman wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
It does seem to be less derivative than TFA.

It does? We get walkers. Rey's training looks just like Luke's in The Empire Strikes Back. Kylo Ren's face is scarred. (I mean - Jeez! - the closest thing to a surprise in TFA was that Ren's face WASN'T scarred, and now we lost even that!) Kylo demonstrates great ability piloting a one-man starship. It looks like Kylo is considering turning good, like Vader in Return of the Jedi. We see a cute little furry alien, like in RotJ. It looks like Snoke is using the Force to torture Rey and try to turn her to the dark side, as in RotJ. The trailer makes it look like Rey is joining Kylo, just like the trailer for RotJ made it look like Luke was joining Vader.

May I ask what in this trailer DOESN'T look derivative?

I think that people are just looking for things not to like to the point where everything resembles something else and despite that, these movies take place in the same universe as the previous three and there are going to be some similarities.

There are X-wings and Tie fighters in this movie, is that derivative?
because if THAT'S considered derivative then you might have a point re: the walkers but it's really not so you don't?

And if the vehicles are derivative then are the fact that there are lightsabers in this movie derivative? Because there were lightsabers in the originals?

Rey's training in the trailer looks like TRAINING. There's nothing that ties it to Luke's in Empire. I might be remembering it wrong but Luke only ignites his saber in the Tree on Dagobah. He never swings it around practicing forms under Yoda's tutelage. He also could barely move the X-Wing out of the bog while Rey is in a meditative state and is able to forcefully shatter and crack solid rock.

Luke is clearly afraid of the power that Rey wields. Yoda chided Luke for not being focused enough and not believing in his own ability enough. How are these two things even remotely similar based...

Though I have been wondering if they're deliberating echoing the form of the original trilogy, but subverting it. Kylo Ren is just like Darth Vader on the surface - menacing armored force user, but his actual character is completely different.


Freehold DM wrote:
I'm sorry, dread lady slaad, but I just don't see that here.

PM inbound. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aaron Bitman wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
It does seem to be less derivative than TFA.

It does? We get walkers. Rey's training looks just like Luke's in The Empire Strikes Back. Kylo Ren's face is scarred. (I mean - Jeez! - the closest thing to a surprise in TFA was that Ren's face WASN'T scarred, and now we lost even that!) Kylo demonstrates great ability piloting a one-man starship. It looks like Kylo is considering turning good, like Vader in Return of the Jedi. We see a cute little furry alien, like in RotJ. It looks like Snoke is using the Force to torture Rey and try to turn her to the dark side, as in RotJ. The trailer makes it look like Rey is joining Kylo, just like the trailer for RotJ made it look like Luke was joining Vader.

May I ask what in this trailer DOESN'T look derivative?

Rey seemingly asking Kylo for guidance. That could be editing or a trick, but nothing quite like happened in the OT.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I'm sorry, dread lady slaad, but I just don't see that here.
PM inbound. :)

Would love to hear what you both think. If you're ok sharing of course.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't see anything sexual in the seconds long snip from the trailer, but I can see where those who do are coming from. All torture is inherently a bit sexual, particularly with the power dynamic when the torturer is enjoying the act. BDSM removes some of the violence from torture to make it a legit sex act, and the expression "Gets off on [violent act]" is an extension of the sexuality of torture as well. Applying that to male torturing a female victim adds the gender layer on top of an act that itself already has sexual connotations.

The tortured prisoner is a classic fantasy trope, though, and it does become (actually, not hashtaggy) problematic when trying to apply that classic trope without glamorizing it. How do you manage to keep the idea of the hero overcoming their torturer to win the day, particularly when it is a female hero, but keep it on the rails enough to remove the implied or inherent sexual gratification from it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Had a thought yesterday. I wondered if we'll get to see any force ghosts (of Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Yoda) in episode 8 or 9?

Then I thought:

Spoiler:
Many of the family (Skywalker/Solo) problems post-episode 6 would be avoided if a reformed Anakin ghost said to Ben Solo "I was evil. Now I'm not. Family is important. Be good." Would it be funny or cheesy?!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ericthecleric wrote:

Had a thought yesterday. I wondered if we'll get to see any force ghosts (of Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Yoda) in episode 8 or 9?

Then I thought: ** spoiler omitted **

That would actually be kind of awesome.

Liberty's Edge

ericthecleric wrote:

Had a thought yesterday. I wondered if we'll get to see any force ghosts (of Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Yoda) in episode 8 or 9?

Then I thought: ** spoiler omitted **

There have have actually been a number of rumors about that very thing being in the movie

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok bear with me on force ghosting.

We get a sort of retcon in epi 3 when Yoda tells Obi-wan about quigon jin figuring out how to escape the flow of the force to manifest as a force ghost. The idea is that this led obi and Yoda down the same trail of force immersion that allowed them to also manifest. Now, realistically we know Anakin at the end of Jedi being a final bow on Vader's rejection of the dark side, but post Revenge, we know that force ghosting required training.

So. That being said, I like to think of quigon lecturing Ani about the dark side day after day. Beyond having an annoying will of the force fanatic bothering him a day (probably giving Ani lip about the balance and him killing all but 2 other Jedi to achieve that numeric balance), Vader picked up the skillz to ghost himself.

And I fully figure we will get either a Kenobi or Skywalker ghost in VIII. Maybe even who Luke is telling that the Jedi must end.


I saw the trailer, and I don't think that Rey's torture at Snoke's hands has anything to do with sex. I think, and this is solely my opinion, that it has more to do with Snoke simply being EVIL. Snoke would torture anyone that gets in his way, regardless of the sex or gender of his victim. Again, just my opinion.


John Napier 698 wrote:
I saw the trailer, and I don't think that Rey's torture at Snoke's hands has anything to do with sex. I think, and this is solely my opinion, that it has more to do with Snoke simply being EVIL. Snoke would torture anyone that gets in his way, regardless of the sex or gender of his victim. Again, just my opinion.

I don't think it actually does either. And I don't think it's "torture of a woman" in general, but I can see how the specific image in the trailer can seem that way to some. Just the pose and expression.

As I said earlier, I suspect with those few seconds as only part of the real scene, it'll appear differently in the movie. Or, I suppose, it will actually be sexualized and it'll be nasty. But I doubt that's the intent.


I agree. I'd also like to remind everyone that Vader tortured Han Solo in Empire. I doubt that it had anything to do with sex.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Can you be SURE about that?

Liberty's Edge

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Vader didn’t even ask him any questions.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Did he HAVE to with the POWAZ of the FORCE?


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Can you be SURE about that?

Vader was probably "field-testing" the latest "enhanced interrogation device."


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(If this thread goes off the rails and gets locked from this point forward, you all can blame me.)

thejeff wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
I saw the trailer, and I don't think that Rey's torture at Snoke's hands has anything to do with sex. I think, and this is solely my opinion, that it has more to do with Snoke simply being EVIL. Snoke would torture anyone that gets in his way, regardless of the sex or gender of his victim. Again, just my opinion.

I don't think it actually does either. And I don't think it's "torture of a woman" in general, but I can see how the specific image in the trailer can seem that way to some. Just the pose and expression.

As I said earlier, I suspect with those few seconds as only part of the real scene, it'll appear differently in the movie. Or, I suppose, it will actually be sexualized and it'll be nasty. But I doubt that's the intent.

It isn't about the torture. It isn't about sanitizing the Hero(ine)'s Journey. It isn't about how BBEG is gonna BBE. It is, for me, about how the scene is presented to the viewers.

Look at Han's torture scene in TESB. Look at Obi-Wan's interrogation/restraint scene in AotC. In both, they are restrained (mostly) upright, and while the heroes are helpless, the scene frames the action and actors as normal. Ford and McGregor are not presented in a gaze-y/objectifying way.

Look at Rey's interrogation/torture scene in Force Awakens. Again, restrained (mostly) upright and physically helpless against Kylo, the scene is focused on the actors' conflict normally. There is some assaulty implication/subtext in Kylo's dialogue and bearing, but the film does not present the scene in a sexual manner.

Now look at Rey being tortured in the new Last Jedi trailer. Her back is arched, her chest thrust out, and even her mouth is locked wide open. Yes, these reactions would, by themselves, be visual evidence to the viewers of the pain from being tortured. But why is she supine? Why isn't she facing him, or at least capable of making eye contact? Yes, the scene is framed dramatically and keeps both actors in the shot (yellow-robed Snoke way in the background), but why is it framed so that audience observes Rey helpless from this specific position? How this scene, how Rey herself, is served to us the viewers just feels out of place and wrong.

I'm not saying the director or assistant directors/camerafolk had any sexual assaulty ideas in their mind when they planned and shot this scene. I'm not saying that any viewers are consciously deriving sexual pleasure from the scene, and I'm not saying they are in anyway complicit. But this instantly tripped my spidey-senses on a visceral level. And I know how easy it is to absorb and internalize the objectifying gaze on women from our culture, even as a woman.

Edit: I didn't come to start an argument or derail. I still really want to see this movie. I just found this snippet of this scene problematic. And I'll try to shut up about it now.


I'm not saying that you're wrong. I just view torture through a different lens.


So, to put the train back on the rails. Does anyone else think that Kylo Ren is having some sort of existential crisis?


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John Napier 698 wrote:
Does anyone else think that Kylo Ren is having some sort of existential crisis?

Kylo looked his unarmed father in the eye, whined some more, and then murdered him with a lightsaber sneak attack. Is he having an existential crisis now? It's possible.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

(If this thread goes off the rails and gets locked from this point forward, you all can blame me.) It isn't about the torture. It isn't about sanitizing the Hero(ine)'s Journey. It isn't about how BBEG is gonna BBE. It is, for me, about how the scene is presented to the viewers.

Look at Han's torture scene in TESB. Look at Obi-Wan's interrogation/restraint scene in AotC. In both, they are restrained (mostly) upright, and while the heroes are helpless, the scene frames the action and actors as normal. Ford and McGregor are not presented in a gaze-y/objectifying way.

Look at Rey's interrogation/torture scene in Force Awakens. Again, restrained (mostly) upright and physically helpless against Kylo, the scene is focused on the actors' conflict normally. There is some assaulty implication/subtext in Kylo's dialogue and bearing, but the film does not present the scene in a sexual manner.

Now look at Rey being tortured in the new Last Jedi trailer. Her back is arched, her chest thrust out, and even her mouth is locked wide open. Yes, these reactions would, by themselves, be visual evidence to the viewers of the pain from being tortured. But why is she supine? Why isn't she facing him, or at least capable of making eye contact? Yes, the scene is framed dramatically and keeps both actors in the shot (yellow-robed Snoke way in the background), but why is it framed so that audience observes Rey helpless from this specific position? How this scene, how Rey herself, is served to us the viewers just feels out of place and wrong.

I'm not saying the director or assistant directors/camerafolk had any sexual assaulty ideas in their mind when they planned and shot this scene. I'm not saying that any viewers are consciously deriving sexual pleasure from the scene, and I'm not saying they are in anyway complicit. But this instantly tripped my spidey-senses on a visceral level. And I know how easy it is to absorb and internalize the objectifying gaze on women from our culture, even as a woman.

Edit: I didn't come to start an argument or derail. I still really want to see this movie. I just found this snippet of this scene problematic. And I'll try to shut up about it now.

Not to argue or (hopefully) derail much further, but though I can definitely see what you're seeing in that clip, I suspect the scene doesn't really compare directly with the other torture scenes. I don't think she's being interrogated as such. At least not in the "we've captured the rebel and brought her here to be questioned" sense. This looks more like a snippet from a "losing a Force battle badly" scene.

I'm not sure how or if that changes the scene's impact. Or will when we see the surrounding action.


I am officially getting psyched for this..hoping JJ doesn't ruin the third act but feel this will be a quality movie. Mark Hamill finally gets to show what a great actor he is.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Now look at Rey being tortured in the new Last Jedi trailer. Her back is arched, her chest thrust out, and even her mouth is locked wide open. Yes, these reactions would, by themselves, be visual evidence to the viewers of the pain from being tortured. But why is she supine? Why isn't she facing him, or at least capable of making eye contact? Yes, the scene is framed dramatically and keeps both actors in the shot (yellow-robed Snoke way in the background), but why is it framed so that audience observes Rey helpless from this specific position? How this scene, how Rey herself, is served to us the viewers just feels out of place and wrong.

That she's floating in the air a good 15+ feet from any other person, with perfectly tidy clothing, fresh hair styling and the villain speech is clipped, but ending in 'destiny,' I can't really get sexual assault vibes.

Audience assault with yet more Chosen One nonsense, but not sex.

The Obi-Wan scene is just a weird one to bring up in comparison. That's just two professionals having a friendly chat by the water cooler. There is nothing at all at stake or even of interest in that scene.

Han's ESB scene has much more in the way of bad vibes. But so does Leia's in the original.

@Black Dougal- great voice actor, no doubt. Great actor... bit of a stretch. Granted the writing doesn't give him much to work with, but this performance is looking like a slightly more serious reshoot of his role in the Jay and Silent Bob movie. Slightly.


It takes a lot of skill to deliver a line like" It's not impossible, I used to bulls eye Womprats in my T-16 back home, and they aren't much bigger than 2 metres."

Liberty's Edge

Black Dougal wrote:
I am officially getting psyched for this..hoping JJ doesn't ruin the third act but feel this will be a quality movie.

I'm super excited for Last Jedi as well - I'm pretty confidant it's going to be amazing!

I'm also pretty confidant JJ will knock the final movie out of the park!


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Black Dougal wrote:
It takes a lot of skill to deliver a line like" It's not impossible, I used to bulls eye Womprats in my T-16 back home, and they aren't much bigger than 2 metres."

Dark Archive

For those worried The Last Jedi will too closely mirror The Empire Stikes Back, does this help?


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
For those worried The Last Jedi will too closely mirror The Empire Stikes Back, does this help?

Not really. The actual trailer looks like it's going to be borrowing heavily from Return of the Jedi for whatever reason- cue the Falcon zipping through the Crystal Caves in the same manner as the 2nd Death Star, the Republic Fleet getting trashed, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if Rey getting trounced takes place in a throne room with an overly convenient pit.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thematically, a Empire/Jedi mashup makes sense, as Force Awakens was a New Hope/Empire smush. I just hope we get a more nuanced callback than VII, which has (in my mind) points docked for rehashing the previous story beats (but is still a good movie).

Dark Archive

I failed in my attempting to be ironic roll.

Voss do you know of your namesake's connection to Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'nuruodo?

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