Also, bit of a nitpick. If the lightsaber is still supposed to be the cut-everything weapon that it used to be, how were the guards' weapons holding up? If they were lightsaber-based, that's the kind of thing that they really shouldn't have wrapped around their own arm (as one did in the process of binding Rey's saber.)
Someone in the star wars universe seems to have gotten genre savy enough to make weapons that hold up to light sabers. We've seen storm troopers with electro baton nightstick things (RIP Nines, best new character in the trilogy). The Praetorian guard weapons were all flashy and glowy (double ended spear, electro whip. Electro sai?) , i think an energy melee weapon can safely ish parry a light saber. Not really surprising since their primary job is to keep Kylo from going all rule of 2 on Snoke.
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Daisey Riddley and Adam Driver trained pretty extensively in sword fighting (well, movie sword fighting).
Thanks for that Marc.
I thought the Throne room scene was the best action sequence of the movie. I think I would have enjoyed it more if I wasn't still annoyed that they just killed off Snoke in a predictable manner (it was easy to anticipate when you are told there are twists in the movie).
Isn't that a microcosm of the problem of the whole film? Twists that actually aren't twists but predictable 180s. Rey parents are no nobodies instead of someone important. Snoke isn't the main villain instead its Kylo Ren. Luke doesn't really train Rey to be a Jedi instead she's supposed to chart her own path or something. Kylo Ren isn't redeemed but instead takes over the First Order.
Did those twists really surprise anyone? I guess they did. Honestly, going into this film I just assumed that the plot would either play things straight or just do the opposite and thats what happened.
Sort of wish they did something really shocking and had Rey join the First Order or something. Wouldn't make a lot of sense but it would be interesting.
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n't that a microcosm of the problem of the whole film? Twists that actually aren't twists but predictable 180s. Rey parents are no nobodies instead of someone important. Snoke isn't the main villain instead its Kylo Ren. Luke doesn't really train Rey to be a Jedi instead she's supposed to chart her own path or something. Kylo Ren isn't redeemed but instead takes over the First Order.
Did those twists really surprise anyone?
If JJ Abrams problem is that he overuses the mystery box with no idea what's inside, Rian Johnson's problem is that he opens the mystery box to reveal... NOTHING! And expects you to be astonished by it every time.
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Sort of wish they did something really shocking and had Rey join the First Order or something. Wouldn't make a lot of sense but it would be interesting.
IDK, makes about as much sense as Ben Solo getting seduced by the dark side. I was hoping Rey and Kylo would swap places in this film and the third would be about rescuing Rey from the darkside. Though I could only imagine the holy hell Disney would catch for a story like that.
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I actually really appreciated that rey's parents where nobodies all the endless speculation about it irritated the tar out of me.
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n't that a microcosm of the problem of the whole film? Twists that actually aren't twists but predictable 180s. Rey parents are no nobodies instead of someone important. Snoke isn't the main villain instead its Kylo Ren. Luke doesn't really train Rey to be a Jedi instead she's supposed to chart her own path or something. Kylo Ren isn't redeemed but instead takes over the First Order.
Did those twists really surprise anyone?
If JJ Abrams problem is that he overuses the mystery box with no idea what's inside, Rian Johnson's problem is that he opens the mystery box to reveal... NOTHING! And expects you to be astonished by it every time.
What among the plethora of theories would have satisfied you?
Rey is Obi-Wan’s illegitimate grand-daughter?
Snoke is really Mace Windu?
Luke was meditating at the temple to become a powerful “Grey” Jedi?
Literally every answer besides the ones we got are all dull, expanded universe, trivia memorising, narratively insignificant, nerd back patting.
Rey’s parents are nobody, awesome we don’t have to focus on Skywalkers forever. The Force has awakened not in some special person, but in a nobody.
Snoke is Snoke. Awesome, we don’t get another space goblin at the head of the space fascists, because he’s just a narrative stepping stone for Kylo Ren.
Luke had lost hope, made a mistake and fell into depression and despair. That is something, because not once have we seen the Jedi truly reflect on their own failures in shaping the galaxy. Even Obi-Wan and Yoda were biding their time for the New Jedi Hope.
Stop saying the mysteries amounted to “nothing”, it’s disengenuous, reductive and just incorrect. Just because you didn’t get answers you liked doesn’t mean those answers don’t have value.
What he said^
I actually really appreciated that rey's parents where nobodies all the endless speculation about it irritated the tar out of me.
I like that Rey's parent were nobodies but I really don't see how that twist is all that worthy of praise. Rey still is essentially a magical chosen one with abilities that only a small amount of people have and if Snoke is to believed she's has been chosen by the Light to bring down the Dark of the First Order.
The Star Wars story is still about metahumans with magic swords empowered by an all-powerful Force being at the center of an intergalactic conflict. Sure Finn, Rose and Poe are around but the narrative of the Last Jedi marginalizes them compared to all the Force users.
Really, if the sequel wanted to really change things Rey wouldn't be a Force user at all and would kick Kylo Ren's just using a blaster like a normal person.
I actually really appreciated that rey's parents where nobodies all the endless speculation about it irritated the tar out of me.I like that Rey's parent were nobodies but I really don't see how that twist is all that worthy of praise. Rey still is essentially a magical chosen one with abilities that only a small amount of people have and if Snoke is to believed she's has been chosen by the Light to bring down the Dark of the First Order.
And it's finally not a Skywalker! After all the speculation, it appears Rey isn't linked to the Jedi Order, not linked to the Skywalkers, not descending from any other part of the trilogy. The Force is finally found in a protagonist not linked to some kind of special Star Wars aristocracy centered around Anakin effing Skywalker.
Honestly, it's like watching the underdog Giants beat the otherwise undefeated Patriots in SuperBowl 42, foiling not only their attempt at the championship but also at ending the season completely undefeated. Or watching the Diamondbacks beat the Yankees in the 2001 World Series, keeping them from a 4th straight championship and burying the narrative about how the Yankees were some kind of stand-in for NYC spirit. It's taking the expert expectation and watching the underdog break through with something new and fresh, wiping the slate clean.
Really, if the sequel wanted to really change things Rey wouldn't be a Force user at all and would kick Kylo Ren's just using a blaster like a normal person.
We don't know that the final will come down to a duel between Rey and Kylo Ren. It probably will since every Star Wars movie seems to need a lightsaber fight, but it also might not since we do have a variety of other factors in the mix this time around, including a greater willingness on the part of the movie-makers to dispense with expectations.
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And it's finally not a Skywalker! After all the speculation, it appears Rey isn't linked to the Jedi Order, not linked to the Skywalkers, not descending from any other part of the trilogy. The Force is finally found in a protagonist not linked to some kind of special Star Wars aristocracy centered around Anakin effing Skywalker.
I used to think it was neat that two of my favorite sci-fi franchises, Star Wars and Star Trek, were headlined by guys who grew up on farms.
But Star Wars kind of shot that 'everyman' vibe in the foot in The Phantom Menace by introducing the whole 'Anakin-as-Midichlorian-Jesus-Immaculate-Birth' nonsense. Instead of an up-from-nothing hero's journey, it's more of a 'well, of course he's the hero, his dad's Zeus and he's got super-powers nobody else can beat' sort of situation.
Too much space royalty and specialer-than-thou bloodlines. I want my future fantasy to be more egalitarian! (That said, I still like Star Wars a lot!)
We just need more aliens. When are we gonna get a Rodian main character? (Preferably one who is *not* related to Greedo! 'Cause it would be totally fantasy-racist to assume that every Rodian knows every other Rodian, or that they all go to the same club.) :)
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you can't really just shoot the powerful Force villain with a blaster. We've seen far too many Jedi and various Dark Force characters handling that.
Maybe they'll use hyperspace bullets? I mean, now that hyperspace has been weaponized there is no limit to what they can do.
I sincerely hope that I'm joking :-)
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you can't really just shoot the powerful Force villain with a blaster. We've seen far too many Jedi and various Dark Force characters handling that.Maybe they'll use hyperspace bullets? I mean, now that hyperspace has been weaponized there is no limit to what they can do.
I sincerely hope that I'm joking :-)
Heh. A force-user with a blaster doing some sort of force-gun-fu would be an interesting twist.
New weapons in general, like whips made of lightning, or 'gravity hammers' that have a gravity generator on the end (like they use to make artificial gravity on their ships) allowing it to be super-light for the swing (or even to yank the user around like Thor's hammer), and super-heavy on the hit, would be neat.
I actually really appreciated that rey's parents where nobodies all the endless speculation about it irritated the tar out of me.
On its own that would have been..okaish? I guesse. There's some problems with it but the movie could have survived it.
But this movie is the narrative equivilant of saying that the problem with nascar is all the left turns, lets make them all right turns instead, now we have something totally different.
Reys parents set up?Nothing!*
Snokes set up? Nothing!
Knights of ren? Not appearing in this picture
Holdos plot holes? Nothing!
Fin and Roses wild ride? Nothing!
Poe dramatically blows up a dreadnaught, it means he's a moron!
Upending expectations is a spice, not a vegetable. At some point it stops working. At the levels of overuse in this movie it's either a pretentious exhibit in questioning the very idea of what star wars is or is just outright insulting the fandom.
No, I mean like the entire galaxy can use the Force once they learn that they don't have to appeal to gatekeepers. To the point, there are no chosen ones.
That would be a pretty big change to the established mechanics
What, like hyperspace kamikazes?
Is something of a one off thing at this point not a world changing event. It is small hive of scum and villiany that isn't even happy with but its there... (orders something from the cantina)
I don't recall exactly what Luke said throughout the movie, but 'force sensitive' may not be an actual thing anymore.
It would have been a cool thing to DO, and explain what he was doing at the first jedi temple, "(turns out the jedi locked away the force to unnaturally make it do that sort of thing and then Luke undid it somehow) , but as something that just happens its more of a continuity error.
Is there actually any real reason to think Rey is a "Chosen One", rather than just a powerful force sensitive?
Is it actually brought up in the movies? Did they talk about some new prophecy or even the old one?
What did Snoke say about her being "chosen by the Light"? I don't remember.
If you put together the films theme of balance in the force with the chosen by the light line and ying yang jedi mosaic, what you wind up with is the idea that Rey is as good as she is with the force and powerful simply because Kylo Ren is that good and that powerful and she's his opposite.
The larger implications there being there's no point in trying to be a more powerful good the universe will just empower a bigger evil but that would be more thinking things through than this film tends to show...
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Snoke basically says, "Darkness rise, and the light rises to meet it."
He then jabbers a bit about how he thought it would be Skywalker, which just goes to show what a schmuck Snoke was, since any mystic worth his salt would note that Luke did as much to create Kylo Ren as Snoke himself did...
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Rey parents are no nobodies instead of someone important.
Dunno. Am I the only one that immediately thought what a liar Kylo Ren was, when he said that to Rey? I took the scene as him trying to undermine her confidence, not as actual matter of fact. Still kinda think that they are siblings.
Or did I miss anything that makes this absolutely clear?
P.S. Was pleasantly surprised about the movie. They did find a good balance between the old garde and the new kids on the block and I immediately fell in love with Rose. Kylo Ren came into his own so the only thing I'm a bit disappointed in is the sudden death of Stroke, when I still don't know who he is and where he came from.
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Rey parents are no nobodies instead of someone important.Dunno. Am I the only one that immediately thought what a liar Kylo Ren was, when he said that to Rey? I took the scene as him trying to undermine her confidence, not as actual matter of fact. Still kinda think that they are siblings.
Or did I miss anything that makes this absolutely clear?
P.S. Was pleasantly surprised about the movie. They did find a good balance between the old garde and the new kids on the block and I immediately fell in love with Rose. Kylo Ren came into his own so the only thing I'm a bit disappointed in is the sudden death of Stroke, when I still don't know who he is and where he came from.
So earlier when Rey was in the Dark Side cave looking for answers she received them. The mirror image she saw was "you already have the answer". When in the moment with Kylo she denies the possibility, he responds with the equivalent of "search your feelings you know it to be true".
Rey's parents being terrible nobodies from a nowhere planet is a key point in this film. Luke was trying to teach that the Force belongs to everyone. If Rey is another "important bloodline", that undermines the whole theme of the movie.
Kylo used the truth to undermine Rey's confidence and present himself as the only path to prominence in an uncaring galaxy.
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No, I mean like the entire galaxy can use the Force once they learn that they don't have to appeal to gatekeepers. To the point, there are no chosen ones.That would be a pretty big change to the established mechanics
both in and out of canon we have seen alllllllll sorts of force users.
both in and out of canon we have seen alllllllll sorts of force users.
But what we haven't seen (which is what i think TOZ is talking about) is that just anyone can use the force. Its a special ability you're born with that seems to be hereditary. Its an ability you can focus on your own, or as a jedi, or as a night sister, or as a sith apprentice, but if you ain't got it then you ain't got it.
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both in and out of canon we have seen alllllllll sorts of force users.But what we haven't seen (which is what i think TOZ is talking about) is that just anyone can use the force. Its a special ability you're born with that seems to be hereditary. Its an ability you can focus on your own, or as a jedi, or as a night sister, or as a sith apprentice, but if you ain't got it then you ain't got it.
no, it was a part of canon that we all use the force, that we are all made of the force at least in part, and return to it when we die.
For lifting rocks and stuff
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In the EU, at least, 'good' Force users seem to stick to telekinetic effects, while 'bad' Force users get the 'force lightning' attacks.
I've long wished to see other manifestations, like a group of mystics who think of the Force as tapping into the 'tapas' or 'heat' of the universe, some sort of friction generated by the movement of planets around stars or whatever, and have force effects based around heat and flame.
Or a group that envisions the force as pure light, and generates light and illusions, and perhaps even cloaks themselves to become invisible.
Force effects based around sound and vibration might also be cool.
I actually really appreciated that rey's parents where nobodies all the endless speculation about it irritated the tar out of me.I like that Rey's parent were nobodies but I really don't see how that twist is all that worthy of praise. Rey still is essentially a magical chosen one with abilities that only a small amount of people have and if Snoke is to believed she's has been chosen by the Light to bring down the Dark of the First Order.
The Star Wars story is still about metahumans with magic swords empowered by an all-powerful Force being at the center of an intergalactic conflict. Sure Finn, Rose and Poe are around but the narrative of the Last Jedi marginalizes them compared to all the Force users.
Really, if the sequel wanted to really change things Rey wouldn't be a Force user at all and would kick Kylo Ren's just using a blaster like a normal person.
I don't know about others but I'm praising it because it upset a bunch of people that annoyed me.
I guess that is petty. I can accept that.
Just watched the film again with my brother and I got to admit I liked it a lot more. Well, actually I just loced everything with Rey and Ren a lot more. I idea that Rey wanted to redeem Ren not only because she felt it was necessary but also because she was on some level attracted to him really added a lot more dimension (and sexuality) to the story. That said, I give even less of a s&~$ about Poe, Finn and Rose's stories. They really feel like distractions from a much better story and the themes in them are cookie cutter and obvious. But, hey, Daisy Ridley's "your breaking my heart face" was still awesome.
For lifting rocks and stuffDude, don't tell me you've never wished you could force pull the remote over to you. Or hit the light switch from bed.
*backfoot headscratch*
I know we're not communicating somewhere but i have no idea where or how.
Its not a matter of wish it, its just a matter of how we've been told and shown that it works, and that its not really the sort of thing characters could be easily wrong or mistaken about. You can't just find the brighest smartest most even tempered 4 year old and train them to lift rocks with your brain, lifting rocks with your brain is an inborn talent (or that species with brains for hands , you're stuck with the ones with the quick of genetics/fate/whatever that let them do that.
And while yes, those same people can become night sisters or sith or ewok shamans or try to muddle through learning force powers on their own, the universe as presented has it as something you're born with. jedi don't have a monopoly on lifting rocks with your brain, but the unfair universe hands it out at its win and it doesn't do so evenly.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction needs to make sense. That goes doubly for science fiction where you're making up the rules of the universe and then getting the audience to accept those rules as a premise for the story.
I'm confused what are we saying isn't working? or working how it was established.
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Jedi were forbidden from attachments, so it's not like they were making babies left and right in the Old Republic. So "special bloodlines" makes little sense at all.
Yoda was the one that said that the Force penetrates and binds all living things.
In any case the rules haven't really changed that much, anybody from anywhere could potentially become a jedi. Not everyone will though, it still requires some dedication and training and there will be some random people who are strong in the force.
Jedi were forbidden from attachments, so it's not like they were making babies left and right in the Old Republic. So "special bloodlines" makes little sense at all.
Those aren't related concepts, so special bloodlines could very well be a thing.
They just have to encourage Jedi not to care about whoever they were bedding (which they did a pretty good job at, 'Annie' aside). Or whatever they were depositing in a petri dish.
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Jedi were forbidden from attachments, so it's not like they were making babies left and right in the Old Republic. So "special bloodlines" makes little sense at all.
Those aren't related concepts, so special bloodlines could very well be a thing.
They just have to encourage Jedi not to care about whoever they were bedding (which they did a pretty good job at, 'Annie' aside). Or whatever they were depositing in a petri dish.
That's not supported in any film, TV series, or extended universe material as far as I know.
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Yoda was the one that said that the Force penetrates and binds all living things.
It would be neat if this was better supported in the shows.
'Life generates it' he says, so one might expect that a life-rich world like Dagobah would be *teeming* with Force potential (making it potentially a great place for a powerful force user to hide from a regime out to exterminate them all), while a life-barren world like Tattooine or Hoth would be 'Force-poor' (and, consequently, the *last* place you'd want to hide a force-user from said regime...).
That said, Yoda's consistently full of crap. 'Too young to be a Jedi. No wait, too old to begin the training.'
'There are always two Sith, master and apprentice, no less, no more.' Let's see, Palpatine/Sidious, Darth Maul, and Tyrannous. That's 1 + 1 + 1 = not 2...
Strong in the Force he may be, but space Kermit has spent too long alone on planet swamp, and the reptiles of the mind are in full bloom.
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Heh. Yeah, Star Wars suffers a bit from the gods who rule the universe changing their minds on how everything works pretty frequently.
Heh. Yeah, Star Wars suffers a bit from the gods who rule the universe changing their minds on how everything works pretty frequently.
Such as getting me to think Luke and Leia were an item based on splinter of the mind eye and then early part of Empire strikes back.
How many people seriously believe Lucas had them as siblings when he started charting his 9 piece movie..?
I love the original trilogy to death but the reveal in Revenge (er Return) of the Jedi was almost a deal breaker for me. Strangely, the ewoks didn't bother me.