Star Wars The Last Jedi


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Sadly, I think this thread has become useless as an avenue for discussion.


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In light of Holdo being written to be completely dislikeable in order to try to make Poe look better, it's pretty reasonable to dislike her.

I imagine the actress did the best she could with a bad role, but she got a bad role.

Dark Archive

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As I said before the entire keep Poe out of the loop part of the plan wasent great but the really condesending way she talks to Poe in there first encounter is probably what made it really bad. I mean its one thing not to tell the loose canon the plan quite another when you do it in a way thats gonna make him storm off half cocked.

I say this as someone who actually quite liked the admiral and was rather disapointed she died.

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Also I have to say whilst there have been bits of the internet that have been pretty venemous towards the admiral. I do think that here the complaints are mostly figured on what the character did rather on what gender the character is.


Skeld wrote:
Sadly, I think this thread has become useless as an avenue for discussion.

Why? Because people are arguing with each and not agreeing all the time.

That's still a discussion.


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Kevin Mack wrote:

As I said before the entire keep Poe out of the loop part of the plan wasent great but the really condesending way she talks to Poe in there first encounter is probably what made it really bad. I mean its one thing not to tell the loose canon the plan quite another when you do it in a way thats gonna make him storm off half cocked.

In any military in the world, that would be Poe's problem to deal with and his responsibility, not Admiral Holdo's. I understand the willingness to give him the benefit of being a hero protagonist, but the point of the story is to break down Poe's loose cannoning by presenting him with the consequences of his insubordination so that he can rebuild himself as a better and more mindful leader.


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Zhangar wrote:


I imagine the actress did the best she could with a bad role, but she got a bad role.

Laura Dern is a great actor and probably would have made Holdo a fan favorite if her character wasn't badly written.

I hate to say this yet again, but I really think its a shame that they killed her just so Poe can a leader. She could have been a replacement for Leia and the next film as the strong female leader of the Resistance with Poe as her right-hand man.

But no she gets fridged. It's made even worst by the fact that I think Holdo is supposed to be a lesbian in the books.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:

As I said before the entire keep Poe out of the loop part of the plan wasent great but the really condesending way she talks to Poe in there first encounter is probably what made it really bad. I mean its one thing not to tell the loose canon the plan quite another when you do it in a way thats gonna make him storm off half cocked.

In any military in the world, that would be Poe's problem to deal with and his responsibility, not Admiral Holdo's. I understand the willingness to give him the benefit of being a hero protagonist, but the point of the story is to break down Poe's loose cannoning by presenting him with the consequences of his insubordination so that he can rebuild himself as a better and more mindful leader.

Agreed. That arc has a lot of potential. I just wish they executed it better.

The more I think about it the more this movie reminds me of Batman v Superman. It's nowhere near as bad as B v S but it has the same problem of having a lot of interesting themes and ideas, but ultimately bad execution.

Dark Archive

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Bill Dunn wrote:


In any military in the world, that would be Poe's problem to deal with and his responsibility, not Admiral Holdo's. I understand the willingness to give him the benefit of being a hero protagonist, but the point of the story is to break down Poe's loose cannoning by presenting him with the consequences of his insubordination so that he can rebuild himself as a better and more mindful leader.

Normally I would agree with you I also agree that the demotion he got at the time was correct problem is the film itself then presents Poes actions overall as correct (Since as shown the first order can just follow the ships even if they jump and having what they described as a fleet killer appearing right next to your fleet when you have your pants down from just making a jump would have been a very big problem)

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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General reminder to be respectful in your posting.
Be wary of getting into arguments that boil down to “I’m right about this subjective thing and that means someone (everyone) else is wrong.”
When you do feel something is objectively one way or another, be mindful of how you express this. Insulting, baiting, or bickering with other community members based on your belief that you are objectively right is not okay.


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Bill Dunn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I do not believe that's the case. And I actively hate this sentiment.

Enjoyment of art is subjective on some level. I really don't get the mona lisa. I really do like charmer of serpents. But on some level the mona lisa is fundamentally better than this stick figure penguin porg

<0
/|\
^~

But throwing paint through an engine or a blank canvas or a dot on a page is not art. Pretending it is, pretending it's profound, is silly and pretentious.

Art is subjective on pretty much all levels. That you find paint sprayed through an engine to not be art while others do just underlines that fact. Art, as I see it, is fundamentally having the chutzpah to do something and present it as art whether it's a portrait of a model as with the Mona Lisa, something more abstract like a Jackson Pollock, an experimental form of composition like blowing paint through an engine, or a single point of color on an otherwise white canvas. In all cases, it's an artist putting ideas out there for others to view, consider, and ponder over.

You're free to set your own limits, but you don't get to tell other people what is and isn't art without the rest of us telling you you're full of BS.

So you're saying that if Paizo had an art contest, they can't be critical of what is submitted? They can't say what is better art compared to bad art? Big Norse Wolf could submit a stick figure drawing of a fighter. Then Wayne Reynolds submitted his drawing of a fighter. If they criticize Big Norse Wolf's stick figure as bad, they're the ones that are full of BS? Paizo can't say that Wayne Reynolds did great while Wolf's drawing sucked, and pick Wayne as the winner, because "art is subjective on pretty much all levels"? Seriously? What if Paizo went with Big Norse Wolf's stick figure, and made him do all the art for the next 3 books. If the fans criticized that choice, we're wrong for not liking stick figure art compared to Wayne Reynolds?


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I liked what they did with Leia, finally using the Force to move one's self.


Megatron777 wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I do not believe that's the case. And I actively hate this sentiment.

Enjoyment of art is subjective on some level. I really don't get the mona lisa. I really do like charmer of serpents. But on some level the mona lisa is fundamentally better than this stick figure penguin porg

<0
/|\
^~

But throwing paint through an engine or a blank canvas or a dot on a page is not art. Pretending it is, pretending it's profound, is silly and pretentious.

Art is subjective on pretty much all levels. That you find paint sprayed through an engine to not be art while others do just underlines that fact. Art, as I see it, is fundamentally having the chutzpah to do something and present it as art whether it's a portrait of a model as with the Mona Lisa, something more abstract like a Jackson Pollock, an experimental form of composition like blowing paint through an engine, or a single point of color on an otherwise white canvas. In all cases, it's an artist putting ideas out there for others to view, consider, and ponder over.

You're free to set your own limits, but you don't get to tell other people what is and isn't art without the rest of us telling you you're full of BS.

So you're saying that if Paizo had an art contest, they can't be critical of what is submitted? They can't say what is better art compared to bad art? Big Norse Wolf could submit a stick figure drawing of a fighter. Then Wayne Reynolds submitted his drawing of a fighter. If they criticize Big Norse Wolf's stick figure as bad, they're the ones that are full of BS? Paizo can't say that Wayne Reynolds did great while Wolf's drawing sucked, and pick Wayne as the winner, because "art is subjective on pretty much all levels"? Seriously? What if Paizo went with Big Norse Wolf's stick figure, and made him do all the art for the next 3 books. If the fans criticized that choice, we're wrong for not liking stick figure art compared to Wayne Reynolds?

It's perfectly valid to say "This isn't what we want." Or "We don't think this is what our customers want."

Would xkcd be better if they had Wayne Reynolds draw all the characters instead of the normal stick figures?


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

The whole sexism argument is frankly about as worthless as it comes. This is the internet. Anyone can find some no-name blogger or community of 20 odd people on tumblr to lament how horrible it is that there's a woman admiral, or it's racist for Finn to hook up with Rose and not Rey, or that Han really enslaved Chewbacca with that life-debt thing.

Morons aren't some new phenomena even if the internet made it easier to find them and pointing out "Well SOMEONE (or even DOZENS of people) said it, so obviously a significant amount of those complaining about Holdo/Finn/Han must think the same" is pretty intellectually dishonest, especially when we've had plenty of level headed arguments on this thread about why Holdo's behavior and/or plan are stupid.

And before the hypothetical "Oh, but the nerds wouldn't complain if it was Bob Holdo or Ackbar," gets brought up again, unless you happen to have a dimension hopping device to hop toward the version of Earth where that happened, it's a useless hypothetical.

Lets keep things classy when armchair admiraling our movies about laser sword monks and pew pew ships mmmkay?

re: ackbar, check out any(now legends) material with him in it. Or hell, memes on your beloved internet, mmkay? Hes got a dedicated, even fanatic, fanbase. The idea of anyone disagreeing with ackbar is an elaborate ruse.


thejeff wrote:

It's perfectly valid to say "This isn't what we want." Or "We don't think this is what our customers want."

Would xkcd be better if they had Wayne Reynolds draw all the characters instead of the normal stick figures?

The art would be better, sure. It's just that people generally don't read xkcd for the art. Nor OOtS, really.


Freehold DM wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:

The whole sexism argument is frankly about as worthless as it comes. This is the internet. Anyone can find some no-name blogger or community of 20 odd people on tumblr to lament how horrible it is that there's a woman admiral, or it's racist for Finn to hook up with Rose and not Rey, or that Han really enslaved Chewbacca with that life-debt thing.

Morons aren't some new phenomena even if the internet made it easier to find them and pointing out "Well SOMEONE (or even DOZENS of people) said it, so obviously a significant amount of those complaining about Holdo/Finn/Han must think the same" is pretty intellectually dishonest, especially when we've had plenty of level headed arguments on this thread about why Holdo's behavior and/or plan are stupid.

And before the hypothetical "Oh, but the nerds wouldn't complain if it was Bob Holdo or Ackbar," gets brought up again, unless you happen to have a dimension hopping device to hop toward the version of Earth where that happened, it's a useless hypothetical.

Lets keep things classy when armchair admiraling our movies about laser sword monks and pew pew ships mmmkay?

re: ackbar, check out any(now legends) material with him in it. Or hell, memes on your beloved internet, mmkay? Hes got a dedicated, even fanatic, fanbase. The idea of anyone disagreeing with ackbar is an elaborate ruse.

Haven't read the EU stuff but I'd hardly put tarp memes as some high water mark of "this character can do no wrong"

Of course we're straight back to the dimensional rift device problem anyway since I can just as easily claim the fans will be positively incensed at such a beloved fan favorite delivering such a dumb plan in a dumb manner.


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Megatron777 wrote:


So you're saying that if Paizo had an art contest, they can't be critical of what is submitted? They can't say what is better art compared to bad art? Big Norse Wolf could submit a stick figure drawing of a fighter. Then Wayne Reynolds submitted his drawing of a fighter. If they criticize Big Norse Wolf's stick figure as bad, they're the ones that are full of BS? Paizo can't say that Wayne Reynolds did great while Wolf's drawing sucked, and pick Wayne as the winner, because "art is subjective on pretty much all levels"? Seriously? What if Paizo went with Big Norse Wolf's stick figure, and made him do all the art for the next 3 books. If the fans criticized that choice, we're wrong for not liking stick figure art compared to Wayne Reynolds?

Not at all. What I'm saying is they can't define BNW's stick figure as not being art. They can say it doesn't fit their criteria of something they want to publish or that it doesn't even reach their criteria of something they would consider low quality. They can even say, "that's terrible - you've brought down the quality of the universe by even making it - please find something more productive to do with your time."

What they can't say is "We objectively know what art is, and that's not it."


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shaventalz wrote:
thejeff wrote:

It's perfectly valid to say "This isn't what we want." Or "We don't think this is what our customers want."

Would xkcd be better if they had Wayne Reynolds draw all the characters instead of the normal stick figures?

The art would be better, sure. It's just that people generally don't read xkcd for the art. Nor OOtS, really.

Sure we do. The stick figure art is part of what makes those webcomics work as well as they do.


Bill Dunn wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
thejeff wrote:

It's perfectly valid to say "This isn't what we want." Or "We don't think this is what our customers want."

Would xkcd be better if they had Wayne Reynolds draw all the characters instead of the normal stick figures?

The art would be better, sure. It's just that people generally don't read xkcd for the art. Nor OOtS, really.
Sure we do. The stick figure art is part of what makes those webcomics work as well as they do.

Excuse me. The quality of the art would be better. People can certainly make use of art with deliberately-limited quality, and that's a stylistic choice. That doesn't make the art good.

Shadow Lodge

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Thejeff wrote:
Would xkcd be better if they had Wayne Reynolds draw all the characters instead of the normal stick figures?

It would be better ART but it would not make a better COMIC.

For starters, you wouldn't be getting 3 strips a week for free. For another the juxtaposition of a deep idea (or something pretending to be a deep idea depending on the week) with a stick figure comic is part of the humor.

Just like i mentioned above (and gets forgotten in arguing about minutia, because we are geeks) I rate the movie as okayish but the story as nerfherder. For me the story is most of the reason for a movie and the reasons i don't like the story are enough to really, really drag the movie down.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:

The whole sexism argument is frankly about as worthless as it comes. This is the internet. Anyone can find some no-name blogger or community of 20 odd people on tumblr to lament how horrible it is that there's a woman admiral, or it's racist for Finn to hook up with Rose and not Rey, or that Han really enslaved Chewbacca with that life-debt thing.

Morons aren't some new phenomena even if the internet made it easier to find them and pointing out "Well SOMEONE (or even DOZENS of people) said it, so obviously a significant amount of those complaining about Holdo/Finn/Han must think the same" is pretty intellectually dishonest, especially when we've had plenty of level headed arguments on this thread about why Holdo's behavior and/or plan are stupid.

And before the hypothetical "Oh, but the nerds wouldn't complain if it was Bob Holdo or Ackbar," gets brought up again, unless you happen to have a dimension hopping device to hop toward the version of Earth where that happened, it's a useless hypothetical.

Lets keep things classy when armchair admiraling our movies about laser sword monks and pew pew ships mmmkay?

re: ackbar, check out any(now legends) material with him in it. Or hell, memes on your beloved internet, mmkay? Hes got a dedicated, even fanatic, fanbase. The idea of anyone disagreeing with ackbar is an elaborate ruse.

Haven't read the EU stuff but I'd hardly put tarp memes as some high water mark of "this character can do no wrong"

Of course we're straight back to the dimensional rift device problem anyway since I can just as easily claim the fans will be positively incensed at such a beloved fan favorite delivering such a dumb plan in a dumb manner.

considering his plan at endor was to bravely run away? Might be par for the course.


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shaventalz wrote:


Excuse me. The quality of the art would be better. People can certainly make use of art with deliberately-limited quality, and that's a stylistic choice. That doesn't make the art good.

I think Rich Burlew does some pretty amazing stuff with his stick figures. He accomplishes more with them than a lot of reasonably decent artists do with more realistic or detailed figures.

Don't look down at an art form because it's not as elaborate or detailed as another. The art form and style serve purposes in the presentation of the whole work (which is to say, the webcomic). And sometimes simpler is better.


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Megatron777 wrote:

we're wrong for not liking stick figure art compared to Wayne Reynolds?

Bad example -- I for one actually would prefer stick figures to WAR.

Tastes vary.

Shadow Lodge

Bill Dunn wrote:


He accomplishes more with them than a lot of reasonably decent artists do with more realistic or detailed figures.

How could someone accomplish anything with a piece of art, much less something that could be rated as more or less, without there being some inherent quality to the art?

Quote:
Not at all. What I'm saying is they can't define BNW's stick figure as not being art.

Right, because art is something that's tricky to define. But I don't think its a stretch to say that it's not as good as the mona lisa (sorry porgy)


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Not at all. What I'm saying is they can't define BNW's stick figure as not being art.
Right, because art is something that's tricky to define. But I don't think its a stretch to say that it's not as good as the mona lisa (sorry porgy)

Well, one of the best heuristics for judging great art is time. If it maintains lasting appeal over generations, that's pretty key.

Of course, the flaw with the approach is that you have to wait those generations to see.

Silver Crusade

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Freehold DM wrote:
pauljathome wrote:


Whether or not the garg is justified please to point where the garg is sexist in nature.

Not liking a character who happens to be female is NOT sexist

As I said before, I will not link the stuff I've seen elsewhere.

To be clear, I was ONLY referring to THIS thread. I don't think that I've seen anything sexist on THIS thread.

I'm 100% sure there are sexist comments elsewhere or comments that reveal a fairly misogynist outlook. Haven't seen them (I haven't looked) but I'm sure that they're there.


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Um...

Can we talk about Star Wars again?

That was fun.

Silver Crusade

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Delightful wrote:

Um...

Can we talk about Star Wars again?

That was fun.

Was it though?


Delightful wrote:

Um...

Can we talk about Star Wars again?

That was fun.

What's that now?


Saw it yesterday. I liked it. I can see parts where I can undestand why people had problems with it. I wanted a bit more of a luke skywalker doing bad ass things part myself. I know in the novels he was one of the most powerful force users ever to live. (which projecting yourself across galaxies is pretty impressive.) I did not read the other 660 post sorry that was just to much.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Saw it yesterday. I liked it. I can see parts where I can undestand why people had problems with it. I wanted a bit more of a luke skywalker doing bad ass things part myself. I know in the novels he was one of the most powerful force users ever to live. (which projecting yourself across galaxies is pretty impressive.) I did not read the other 660 post sorry that was just to much.

Absolutely, I wanted more Luke to the story. As impressive as what he did was, I was hoping he would pull something off like pulling down some of the First order ships into the planet. Perhaps the rebels couldn't leave the planet due to a screen of ships..and that act allows them to get away..


I wanted him to actually be on salt planet. Stopping all that firepower with the force would of felt more impressive then hologram trick. Then the the obi wan thing and let kylo win after everyone escapes. Kind of to pass on the torch and to become more powerful then he can possibly imagine thing.

Dark Archive

Freehold DM wrote:
mm. Good point. I will not get into some of the disgusting things I have seen online regarding not just the character, but the actress.

[tangent]

Favorite line from a Laura Dern character;
"They'll be especially popular with children."
"Children? What are they?"
"Smaller versions of adults, honey."
[/tangent]


Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I liked what they did with Leia, finally using the Force to move one's self.

I thought the scene was shot a little goofy, but I didn't have an issue with what she did. I assumed it was a variation on a stand Force Pull effect. She attempted to pull the ship towards her but having less mass she was effectively pulled to the ship instead.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
I wanted him to actually be on salt planet. Stopping all that firepower with the force would of felt more impressive then hologram trick. Then the the obi wan thing and let kylo win after everyone escapes. Kind of to pass on the torch and to become more powerful then he can possibly imagine thing.

I don't think the movies have ever established that Luke is super-powerful compared to other Jedi. Beyond that, if Luke was able to resist that kind of punishment with the Force, one wonders how most of the Jedi order managed be killed off.

I personally thought the scene as presented went brilliantly. Luke got to be a BAMF while the audience went "How is he doing that?" with the final reveal answering that question. It was also a classic Jedi thing to save the day without resorting to direct violence.

He also created an inspiring moment and added to his legend (see the kids retelling the story to each other in the final scene) and while him allowing Kylo Ren to kill him directly might have been a callback to Obi-Wan, I think him saying "See you around, kid." and simply vanishing is far more legendary, from an in-universe perspective.

Shadow Lodge

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I can't but agree with BNW, this movie's story was a dissappointment. But discussing it as such just brings out the fanpeople. Kinda feels like Batman v. Superman in that regard. I'm sure once the wow factor wears off in a few months, many will agree.

Anyhow, good, bad and whatnot:

* Both Driver and Ridley finally acting their hearts out. Their interplay was good and made the throne room scene all the better.

* Getting rid of Snoke was a good move. He was terribad and had no presence and no story.

* Wasting Laura f+@*ing Dern on some two-bit tearjerker moment when she had a perfect opportunity to replace Leia was a cheap move. I mean, I didn't expect Inland Empire or something, but come the nerf on!

* Good visual flair in that tearjerker though. Good visuals throughout actually. It had no Bespin with its glorious overdesigned decks, but hey, modern Hollywood.

* Porgs=!!! Porgs in space combat=eh.

* None of the new ships were interesting enough. An effort was made, unlike in TFA, but some distinct oomph was needed. Ship porn! Flying totalitarian space wedges and sleek retroscifi Jetsons fighters where you at?!

* Their depiction of Jedi was wrong. "Dark" vs "Light" is an entirely EU thing, whereas in the movies dark side was what those who used the universe's quintessential life for their own lulz were called and the jedi order went out of their way to hunt them because the dark side was an existential perversion, not because doing so would be a good thing. The Force just is. It's the natural state of things and does not discriminate and turning it into a yin and yang thing is a gross misinterpretation.

Argh, Muser must digress! In closing I liked it more than TFA, but far less than Rogue One.

Silver Crusade

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Muser wrote:


* Wasting Laura f@#@ing Dern on some two-bit tearjerker moment when she had a perfect opportunity to replace Leia was a cheap move. I mean, I didn't expect Inland Empire or something, but come the nerf on!

In fairness, they'd already shot all of the movie when Carrie Fisher died. The plan was to have Leia be a pretty major character in the next movie.

Changing things to have Leia die in this movie would presumably have been quite expensive. And just IMAGINE the nerd rage if we learned that there was footage of Leia that was cut after Carrie Fisher died :-(


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Delightful wrote:

Um...

Can we talk about Star Wars again?

That was fun.

Was it though?

I was for me and others I assume.

If it wasn't for you, you could always just leave and go to another forum where you can a happier time.

Liberty's Edge

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The Last Jedi was an okay movie. The plot holes and changes from traditional Star Wars tropes made for a fairly hollow Star Wars experience thou.

While the The Last Jedi is the highest grossing US domestic movie of the year, the performance vs The Force Awakens is off by about 30%. I am hoping that Disney will see the reaction / fall off and change the direction of the series.


Alceste008 wrote:

The Last Jedi was an okay movie. The plot holes and changes from traditional Star Wars tropes made for a fairly hollow Star Wars experience thou.

While the The Last Jedi is the highest grossing US domestic movie of the year, the performance vs The Force Awakens is off by about 30%. I am hoping that Disney will see the reaction / fall off and change the direction of the series.

Not really a surprise. Force Awakens was an event. 10 years since the last. First under Disney. Lots of pent up demand.

Now we're getting Star Wars every year. It's not the same kind of thing.

Some people didn't like TFA. They're probably not going to see another one.

Still beat out Rogue One, which a lot of the naysayers think was better.


Kalshane wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I liked what they did with Leia, finally using the Force to move one's self.

I thought the scene was shot a little goofy, but I didn't have an issue with what she did. I assumed it was a variation on a stand Force Pull effect. She attempted to pull the ship towards her but having less mass she was effectively pulled to the ship instead.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
I wanted him to actually be on salt planet. Stopping all that firepower with the force would of felt more impressive then hologram trick. Then the the obi wan thing and let kylo win after everyone escapes. Kind of to pass on the torch and to become more powerful then he can possibly imagine thing.

I don't think the movies have ever established that Luke is super-powerful compared to other Jedi. Beyond that, if Luke was able to resist that kind of punishment with the Force, one wonders how most of the Jedi order managed be killed off.

I personally thought the scene as presented went brilliantly. Luke got to be a BAMF while the audience went "How is he doing that?" with the final reveal answering that question. It was also a classic Jedi thing to save the day without resorting to direct violence.

He also created an inspiring moment and added to his legend (see the kids retelling the story to each other in the final scene) and while him allowing Kylo Ren to kill him directly might have been a callback to Obi-Wan, I think him saying "See you around, kid." and simply vanishing is far more legendary, from an in-universe perspective.

I get that. That was probably better for the story. episode 1-3 spoiled me on finishing with cool light saber fights. people complain about those movies so much but the spectacle was amazing.


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Alceste008 wrote:


While the The Last Jedi is the highest grossing US domestic movie of the year, the performance vs The Force Awakens is off by about 30%. I am hoping that Disney will see the reaction / fall off and change the direction of the series.

Off by 30%? So it's slightly outperforming Empire Strikes Back which was about 32% down from Star Wars's run.

I'm hoping Disney will see that reaction and realize they're doing the right thing now.


Alceste008 wrote:


While the The Last Jedi is the highest grossing US domestic movie of the year, the performance vs The Force Awakens is off by about 30%. I am hoping that Disney will see the reaction / fall off and change the direction of the series.

Unlikely. Forbes had an article that said the falloff between TFA and TLJ is on par with the falloff between ANH and ESB (which is frequently touted by fans as the best of the entire series.)

Liberty's Edge

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Kalshane wrote:
Alceste008 wrote:


While the The Last Jedi is the highest grossing US domestic movie of the year, the performance vs The Force Awakens is off by about 30%. I am hoping that Disney will see the reaction / fall off and change the direction of the series.

Unlikely. Forbes had an article that said the falloff between TFA and TLJ is on par with the falloff between ANH and ESB (which is frequently touted by fans as the best of the entire series.)

While I think his estimate of $660 million is overly optimistic especially with the theater contract locks coming off, I can understand his point. There is no doubt that the movie will be financial successful thou.

The lower multiplier (especially for a Star Wars film) coupled with poor China sales does say that the movie is not universally loved. Will the discontent in the movie's main market of North America affect sequels? I do not know. I am off to see Jumanji.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
episode 1-3 spoiled me on finishing with cool light saber fights. people complain about those movies so much but the spectacle was amazing.

That's actually what bugged me about the throne room scene in E8 -- it was patently clear that none of the actors knew which end of a sword to hold, much less how to fight with one. At least Eps 1-2 gave us some sword-fightin' eye candy!

Silver Crusade

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These people weren’t trained in sword fighting since the age of 8. I doubt Luke Skywalker’s school of Jedi training was even that in depth with the sword fighting. Luke himself lost every lightsaber duel he fought.

So they relied on the inherent deadliness of the weapons they wielded and the force to win the battle. I thought the Force Users vs the Praetorian Guard fight was a lot of fun.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

These people weren’t trained in sword fighting since the age of 8. I doubt Luke Skywalker’s school of Jedi training was even that in depth with the sword fighting. Luke himself lost every lightsaber duel he fought.

So they relied on the inherent deadliness of the weapons they wielded and the force to win the battle. I thought the Force Users vs the Praetorian Guard fight was a lot of fun.

He only fought a couple saber duels in the original trilogy, and won half of them. Vader on Bespin (lost) and Vader above Endor (won). Maybe Vision!Vader on Dagobah, which he "won" (physically, anyway.) The other uses were against animals or against gun-users. His record honestly isn't that bad.

And if you're relying on the inherent deadliness of your weapon... you'd better be very sure you know how to handle the weapon. Someone relying on the "inherent deadliness" of (for instance) a gun is a danger to themselves and everyone around them. See Rey's accidental destruction of an ancient practice target. It seems to me that one of Luke's priorities would be to teach basic swordfighting skills because patience or not, one of his students is going to take a swing with a "borrowed" lightsaber at some point.

Also, bit of a nitpick. If the lightsaber is still supposed to be the cut-everything weapon that it used to be, how were the guards' weapons holding up? If they were lightsaber-based, that's the kind of thing that they really shouldn't have wrapped around their own arm (as one did in the process of binding Rey's saber.)


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

These people weren’t trained in sword fighting since the age of 8. I doubt Luke Skywalker’s school of Jedi training was even that in depth with the sword fighting. Luke himself lost every lightsaber duel he fought.

So they relied on the inherent deadliness of the weapons they wielded and the force to win the battle. I thought the Force Users vs the Praetorian Guard fight was a lot of fun.

I think Kirth was saying none of the actors, including those playing the non-Force using guards, knew what they were doing and thus the fights weren't eye candy.

Untrained Force users with lightsabers vs highly skilled normal people could be fun to watch, but I don't think it was done deliberately here.

Liberty's Edge

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Daisey Riddley and Adam Driver trained pretty extensively in sword fighting (well, movie sword fighting).

This is pretty cool ...

Scarab Sages

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Luke himself lost every lightsaber duel he fought.

You need to rewatch RotJ, Luke defeated Vader. (spoiler?)


Marc Radle wrote:

Daisey Riddley and Adam Driver trained pretty extensively in sword fighting (well, movie sword fighting).

This is pretty cool ...

Thanks for that Marc.

I thought the Throne room scene was the best action sequence of the movie. I think I would have enjoyed it more if I wasn't still annoyed that they just killed off Snoke in a predictable manner (it was easy to anticipate when you are told there are twists in the movie).

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