If you were creating a full caster, which 2-4 spells of each spell level would be almost indispensable? Obviously there will be some differences based on what you may encounter, but which 2-4 spells of each spell level do you think that your characters just can't live without? Why?
Well this is about as subjective as it gets, but I'll give it a shot:
Arcane spells
0th - Detect magic, Read magic, Ghost sound.
1st - Protection from (most relevant), Silent Image, grease.
2nd - Resist energy, Shatter (quiet haters, this is my list), Scorching ray, Invisibility.
3rd - , Fly, Stinking cloud.
4th - Black tentacles, Confusion, Enervation.
5th - Wall of force, Telekinesis, Magic Jar.
6th - Contingency, Disintegrate, Form of the Dragon I.
7th - Plane shift, Grasping hand, Reverse Gravity.
8th - Maze, Irresistable Dance.
9th - Wish, Time stop, Prismatic sphere.
But, if the only spell you really need provided you have a party traveling with you is haste.
For an Arcane Caster:
0th: Detect Magic, Prestdigitation
1st: Magic Missle, Grease
2nd: Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Resist Energy
3rd: Haste, Fly, Fireball, Dispel Magic
4th: Enervation, Dragon's Breath
5th: Teleport, Dominate Person
6th: Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Greater Teleport
8th: Mind Blank
9th: Shapechange, Time Stop, Mage's Disjunction
Honestly, Haste is probably the best spell in the entire game. And Teleport is just too damn useful not to have.
I'm just gonna talk about Arcane casters (Wizards and Sorcerers) because those are what I know best... also gonna stick to Core Rulebook, and not leach anything from extra Pathfinder materials...
First level - Shield, Color Spray, Grease, Obscuring Mist. Shield is short-term boost to AC that even works on touch attacks (deflection bonus, right? Don't have my rulebook here at work) and gives immunity to magic missiles. Color Spray almost always takes your opponent(s) out for at least one round, more if they fail their save, and can hit multiple targets if they're getting too grabby. Grease sets up a spot in front of you that forces a DEX check to anyone moving through it or fall on yer bum! Can also be used to disarm targets or to escape from grapples or entangle effects. Obscuring Mist is a low-level Arrow Deterrent and lasts a reasonably long time... folks cant shoot what they can't see.
Second Level - Invisibility, Spider Climb, Glitterdust, Flaming Sphere. Invisible, obvious plethora of usefulness. Spider Climb is a poor man's Fly spell, and underground or in the city you'll never know the difference. Keeps you out of reach while casting at your foes with impunity... if your foes have ranged attacks, drop an Obscuring Mist (or Prot from Arrows, or similar defense) to go with it. Glitterdust hits a small area with effective Dispel Invisible Sneaky People, and blinds everyone if they fail a save. Flaming Sphere lasts one level per caster, and can target a different target every round... can also be used to set fires at range.
Third level - Haste, Fly, Slow, Stinking Cloud. Haste gives everyone in your party double move speed (effectively) and an extra action on a full attack, for however many rounds as you have caster levels... Nice! Slow is its counterpart, reducing all the bad guys in its radius to just one single action every round... true, they get a save, but odds are you will get half the targets or more every time. Fly allows you to get to a safe distance quickly, avoid traps, and cast spells from relative safety. For all you dwarves, gnomes n' hobbit casters, it also allows you to keep up with the party for a little while! And Stinking Cloud not only blocks LOS like Obscuring Mist does but it makes all the foes you hit with it nauseated, severely hampering their fighting spirit.
More later if I have time....
1st: Grease, Silent Image
2nd: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Invisibility, Shatter
3rd: Haste, Fly
4th: Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Stone Shape
5th: Teleport, Wall of Stone, Feeblemind, Magic Jar, Telekinesis
6th: Programmed Image, Contingency
7th: Reverse Gravity
8th:
9th: Time Stop
Yeah, at the end of the list, the spells generally become awesome enough that there's no specific spells that are "must haves" like there are at early levels.
Well this is about as subjective as it gets,
It's very subjective. I'm looking for some patterns. I also have a hard time playing clerics and druids so I'm looking to see what others say are good options so I can learn more.
0: Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Prestdigitation, Read magic
1st: Grease, Silent image, , vanish, Magic missile
2nd: Invisibility, create pit, Stone call, protection from evil, create treasure map
3rd: Haste, fly,shrink item
Well this is about as subjective as it gets,It's very subjective. I'm looking for some patterns. I also have a hard time playing clerics and druids so I'm looking to see what others say are good options so I can learn more.
Well, since Clerics and Druids inherently have access to their class's entire spell list there really aren't "indispensable" spells for them since they get to choose their spells every day.
I also have a hard time playing clerics...
Done,
0th - Create water, Detect magic, Read magic
1st - Divine Favor, Protection from (most relevant), Magic Stone, Obscuring Mist
2nd - Resist Energy, Restoration, lesser, Shatter.
3rd - Archon's Aura, Stone Shape, Wind wall.
4th - Blessing of Fervor, Freedom of Movement, Magic weapon Greater, Dimensional Anchor.
5th - Breath of life (or Raise dead), Wall of Stone, Plane Shift.
6th - Blade Barrier, Heal/Harm, Wind Walk.
7th - Ew, get more 4th level spells with these. Ok Maybe something like Restoration Greater, Resurrection.
8th - Fire Storm, Holy Aura.
9th - Miracle, Gate, Polar Midnight, Energy Drain.
I'm just gonna pick some indispensable spells everyone else misses:
0th
- acid splash (pesky trolls can be anywhere)
- touch of fatigue (-2 to str AND dex, and it's zero level?)
1st
- peacebond (stop a fight without a fight)
- memory lapse (oh, you won initiative? quick hide!)
- vanish (awesome spell)
2nd
- locate object (dammitall! where did I leave my wand this time?)
- fire breath (I mean come on, you KNOW you would)
- fox's cunning (I'm a wizard, right?)
3rd
- claraudience/clairvoyance (when is this not helpful?)
- dispel magic (how many times have you said "dangit!")
- gaseous form (fly, sneak, hide, bypass bars, doors...)
- beast shape (you know you envy those druids)
4th
- stone shape (wall? what wall?)
For clerics, Core only:
0-detect magic, read magic, light
1-protection from alignment, bless (low levels)/divine favor (higher levels), cure light wounds (not for preparing, but to use wands, duh!), remove fear
2-resist energy, lesser restoration, silence
3-dispel magic, magic vestment, prayer, speak with dead
4-death ward, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon. Never got to use blessing of fervor, but it would make the list too.
5-plane shift, commune, true seeing, wall of stone. Breath of life and raise dead are important as well, and I've had good luck with greater command.
6-heal, harm, wind walk, greater dispel magic, heroes' feast, word of recall, blade barrier...this level has many useful spells.
7-...to offset this level being pretty painful. Holy word, greater restoration. Resurrection is nice to have but you hopefully will never use it. Destruction doesn't destroy much of anything.
8-holy aura, firestorm, greater spell immunity (awesome situationally)
9-miracle, mass heal, gate.
Many of these spells are essential under the right circumstances, but not useful all the time. That's been my main problem with the class spell list, honestly.
ARCANE
0 - Detect Magic, Spark, Message
1 - Grease, Liberating Command, Ant Haul, Vanish (if no Invisibility yet)
2 - Scorching Ray, Warding Weapon, Glitterdust (if no True Seeing yet)
3 - Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fly (if no Overland Flight yet)
4 - Black Tentacles, Calcific Touch, Dragon's Breath
5 - Telekinesis, Magic Jar, Teleport (if no Greater Teleport yet)
6 - Contingency, Disintigrate, Cold Ice Strike
7 - Greater Scrying, Mage's Magnificent Mansion
DIVINE
0 - Guidance, Create Water, Purify Food and Drink
1 - Liberating Command, Ant Haul, Divine Favor
2 - Align Weapon, Status, Lesser Restoration
3 - Dispel Magic, Wind Wall, Prayer
4 - Terrible Remorse, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement
5 - Breath of Life, Greater Forbid Action, Scrying (if no Greater Scrying yet)
6 - Cold Ice Strike, Heal, Greater Dispel Magic, Harm (if no Destruction yet)
7 - Destruction, Destruction, Destruction, DESTRUCTION MUAAHHAHAHAAHHAHA
For clerics, Core only:
7-...to offset this level being pretty painful. Holy word, greater restoration. Resurrection is nice to have but you hopefully will never use it. Destruction doesn't destroy much of anything.
Many of these spells are essential under the right circumstances, but not useful all the time. That's been my main problem with the class spell list, honestly.
Woah woah woah....
While I totally agree that 7th level spells are painfullly lacking, I really don't see how Destruction is not a great destroying things spell....
Automatic hit with no roll, and even if you make your save you take 10d6 damage! On top of that, it is a 7th level spell that, if it kills you, can only be undone by 9th level magic.
That seems solid to me.
Druid (again, avoiding the obvious ones):
0 - nothing worth choosing, mending is more useful than many realize
1 - entangle, faerie fire
2 - owl's wisdom, soften earth and stone, warp wood
3 - mad monkeys
4 - atavism (multiple buffs that stack with anything? Sure!)
Druid (again, avoiding the obvious ones):
Please don't avoid anything. I really have a hard time with the divine casters and I want to make sure I get as much useful information. Keep in mind that there are probably others who are also interested since they are new to the game. So don't hold back.
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Spells I always prepare (or have available in wand or scroll form);
Cleric
0 - guidance
1 - cure light wounds, command (flee is good for two rounds, as they have to come back, after they run away)
2 - shield other (combined with channeling positive energy, you heal any damage the ally took *and* any ally you took, at the same time, halving your healing load, if you cast it on the dude who takes the most damage), lesser restoration
3 - bestow curse (the 'make your own curse' option is either wicked fun, or useless, consult your GM!)
4 - holy smite (never play an evil cleric, cause unholy blight isn't as good, or as frequently useful)
...and druids...
and Done.
0th - Read magic, Detect magic, Create water, Guidance/light.
1st - Entangle, Magic fang (for animal companions), Longstrider, Shillelagh, Goodberry.
2nd - Barkskin, Bear's Strength/Owl's Wisdom (Low levels), Resist energy, Restoration Lesser.
3rd - Magic fang greater, Spike Growth, Wind wall.
4th - Freedom of Movement, Thorn Body, Strong Jaw, Flame Strike.
5th - Animal growth, Tree stride, Threefold Aspect, Transmute Rock to mud.
6th - Wall of stone, or just prepare animal growth a bunch of times.
7th - Changestaff, Control weather (if your playing a druid and this isn't used at least once, you are doing it wrong.), Fire storm, Heal.
8th - Reverse Gravity, Wall of lava
9th - Clashing Rocks, Polar Midnight, Storm of Vengeance.
Kinda blast heavy, but w/e NBD.
Also, List of Opinions.
Please don't avoid anything. I really have a hard time with the divine casters and I want to make sure I get as much useful information. Keep in mind that there are probably others who are also interested since they are new to the game. So don't hold back.Druid (again, avoiding the obvious ones):
Heh, I find that a little hard to believe based on your other posts Bob, but OK. The reason I avoided the easy ones is because it's a rare party that doesn't have multiple casters, and it doesn't do any good to have three casters who all can detect magic an unlimited number of times per day...
Druid
0 - read magic, detect magic, light, stabilize
1 - obscuring mist, magic fang, charm animal
2 - barkskin, summon swarm
3 - greater magic fang, call lightning, stone shape (maybe)
4 - ball lightning, dispel magic
charm animal makes the list because if you are a druid and you ever need it and don't have it, you feel like the most worthless druid ever. And you can always use a summons in its place...
Oh, and I love the look on the GM's face when a druid casts "dispel magic". "Oh, you... uh... have that spell?"
I rarely play characters who can cast fifth level spells...
There's a lot of good spells in here. I don't know why I find it so hard to play clerics and druids. Many of their spells are similar to wizards. The reason I also wanted wizard spells is because I play wizards differently than what I see others do. I have a lot of fun and I do well but I have never played a d20 System wizard with the same power as I see on the boards.
Heh, I find that a little hard to believe based on your other posts Bob, but OK. The reason I avoided the easy ones is because it's a rare party that doesn't have multiple casters, and it doesn't do any good to have three casters who all can detect magic an unlimited number of times per day...Please don't avoid anything. I really have a hard time with the divine casters and I want to make sure I get as much useful information. Keep in mind that there are probably others who are also interested since they are new to the game. So don't hold back.Druid (again, avoiding the obvious ones):
One of my first characters was a cleric but that was way back in 1E and I know now that we didn't play the game by the rules as well as we could have. I was 8ish so I guess I can be forgiven. I even remember his name: Polyintegrate. I have no idea how an 8 year old came up with that name and I doubt I knew what it meant. It just sounded cool.
Anyway, the last time I got to play (not counting the current Beginner Box game I'm in) I played an oracle of life. I ended up dying because I was thinking like a GM and not a player. As GM, I have plenty of characters to play so if I make a miscalculation, it's not a big deal for me. As a player though, I only have the one character. One miscalculation can mean the end of gaming for the night. That's what happened to me. I ended up with several different ways to absorb the party's damage with the intent on using my channeling to heal everyone faster. One well placed area of effect and I absorbed more damage than I could handle (everyone rolled like crap and failed their saves) and went from fully healed to deep negative hit points in a single round. The party survived, but I missed out on the boss fight. It was a glorious end, but I feel I could have done better and enjoyed the character more if I could get a better spell selection.
Treantmonk has some good guides on Wizards and Druids.
For clerics, Core only:
7-...to offset this level being pretty painful. Holy word, greater restoration. Resurrection is nice to have but you hopefully will never use it. Destruction doesn't destroy much of anything.
Many of these spells are essential under the right circumstances, but not useful all the time. That's been my main problem with the class spell list, honestly.
Woah woah woah....
While I totally agree that 7th level spells are painfullly lacking, I really don't see how Destruction is not a great destroying things spell....
Automatic hit with no roll, and even if you make your save you take 10d6 damage! On top of that, it is a 7th level spell that, if it kills you, can only be undone by 9th level magic.
That seems solid to me.
Easy one to answer. Flip through the Bestiaries. Find every monster with a CR 13 or higher. Look at their Fort saves and hp. A straight destruction from a caster of a level equal to the monster's CR won't destroy the monster if it fails its save...IF it fails its save. If the monster makes it, that's an average of 35 points of damage they'll take. Not impressive on the damage end, though cleric spells rarely are. As for the reviving the dead part, not usually an issue; you're trying to kill the target, why would you try to then bring them back? It makes for a potential plot device, but that's about all.
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Top 2-4 Chosen Arcane Spells
Note that best choice changes with level – what is best at level 1 is not necessarily best when you are higher level. I concentrate on spells with staying power.
0 Detect Magic – just way too useful for detecting magical traps, hidden items, getting hints about invisible people, etc – forewarned is forearmed
0 all the others are situational, light if you need it, read magic most days
1 Mage Armor – yes I know it’s not trendy - but +4 AC for many hours is strong - this can save your skin at lower level - and at higher level when you have spare 1st level slots you can protect yourself all day- when a mage armor equivalent magic item would cost you 16K.
1 Protection From Evil – it takes a while to grow on you but this spell is useful and versatile – protection from mental control just keeps getting better as levels advance – and giving enchanted colleagues a second save with a bonus can save the party. The other bonuses aren’t bad either.
1 Vanish – being invisible is major - for combat use and even many sneak situations a few rounds of invisibility is all you need. It’s most of the benefit of the Invisibility spell for half the price
1 Grease – a versatile spell with several different uses – versatility is a key identifier of a good spell with staying power when you have limited spell slots
An honourable mention goes to Color Spray as it doesn’t quite make the list:
(1 Color spray – a way to take down multiple enemies with one spell – you essentially exchange 1 of your standard actions to remove many enemy standard actions – this is always worthwhile - indispensable at first level and a waste of space past level 4)
2 Create Pit – take one or two enemies out of combat for several rounds plus damage them and make them use up resources, plus block corridors and create obstacles – you exchange 1 standard action for several of theirs and its versatile
2 Glitterdust – blind enemies and reveal invisible enemies – blind is huge, invisible enemies are really bad news, multiple targets
2 Mirror Image – top personal defensive spell
Honorable mention to Resist Energy, Bears Endurance and Flaming Sphere:
(2 Bear’s Endurance – if you don’t have healing or the healer is busy or down this is the “get someone up now” spell)
(2 Resist Energy – turns a hard fight into a walkover against specific enemies)
(2 Flaming Sphere – great at low levels – burn enemies, block paths, make someone move, nullify regeneration)
3 Haste – Up the damage output of the party considerably – though only if you have two or more melee combatants in the party. Keep up with fast opponents, run away easily, plus a couple of useful bonuses.
3 Stinking Cloud – Nauseated is huge as they can't do anything except move – take the entire enemy team out of combat and slow them down - blocks vision
3 Fly – being unreachable is a fantastic defence while staying at close spell range if required, get to unreachable foes, cross impassable barriers
4 Black Tentacles – large area grapple and damage, interfere with casters ability to cast
4 Dimension Door – get out of jail free, get in somewhere impregnable easily
4 Confusion – get the enemy to fight themselves - priceless
5 Teleport – hugely useful for getting there and back without any of that dangerous/boring travelling bit and without even bringing the camping gear, snatch missions, emergency back to base travel, emergency shopping trips
5 Hungry Pit – if it can’t fly or teleport its dead or dying and out of combat for a minute
5 Wall of Stone – Completely isolate creatures and teams, block corridors, build bridges, ramps and other useful things, its permanent
Treantmonk has some good guides on Wizards and Druids.
You and pipedreamsam both recommended these guides, and they are good. I was looking for more input though. Treantmonk is incredibly knowledgeable and writes excellent guides. I just want more than one man's opinion.
I really liked the druid guides.
Treantmonk has some good guides on Wizards and Druids.You and pipedreamsam both recommended these guides, and they are good. I was looking for more input though. Treantmonk is incredibly knowledgeable and writes excellent guides. I just want more than one man's opinion.
I really liked the druid guides.
Bob, I like Treantmonk's druid guides too, but I play a druid myself in PF and I don't agree with a significant number of his recommendations. If you play a very cookie cutter druid build his guides are very helpful, but if you take even a few short steps off the reservation, you will have some issues. Druids, perhaps more than any other PF class I've played, are extremely versatile and the "best" spells to take are highly dependent on the type of druid you are playing. Spells that are perfect for a summoning druid can be much less effective for a wildshaping druid. And if you have gone so far off the reservation that your druid doesn't focus on summoning or wildshaping, then you need to look at other spells. For example, for my druid the single most useful first level spell she uses is "aspect of the falcon." She casts that in every encounter because she is a ranged combat specialist.
That's one reason I love druids.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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0- detect magic, prestidigitation, mage hand
1- prot. evil, mage armor, color spray, grease
2- resist energy, invisibility, glitterdust, mirror image
3- dispel magic, haste, fly
4- greater invisibility, enervation, wall of fire
5- teleport, wall of force, overland flight (telepathic bond, telekinesis, permanency, polymorph all tied for 4th)
6- greater dispel magic, true seeing, disintegrate, contingency
7- greater teleport, limited wish, mage's sword
8- mind blank, maze, clone
9- time stop, wish, mage's disjunction, gate
Easy one to answer. Flip through the Bestiaries. Find every monster with a CR 13 or higher. Look at their Fort saves and hp. A straight destruction from a caster of a level equal to the monster's CR won't destroy the monster if it fails its save...IF it fails its save. If the monster makes it, that's an average of 35 points of damage they'll take. Not impressive on the damage end, though cleric spells rarely are. As for the reviving the dead part, not usually an issue; you're trying to kill the target, why would you try to then bring them back? It makes for a potential plot device, but that's about all.For clerics, Core only:
7-...to offset this level being pretty painful. Holy word, greater restoration. Resurrection is nice to have but you hopefully will never use it. Destruction doesn't destroy much of anything.
Many of these spells are essential under the right circumstances, but not useful all the time. That's been my main problem with the class spell list, honestly.
Woah woah woah....
While I totally agree that 7th level spells are painfullly lacking, I really don't see how Destruction is not a great destroying things spell....
Automatic hit with no roll, and even if you make your save you take 10d6 damage! On top of that, it is a 7th level spell that, if it kills you, can only be undone by 9th level magic.
That seems solid to me.
Just because it targets a good save doesn't make it a bad spell...
Compare with disintigrate(CL13):Disintigrate:
Need to roll a hit: Yes
Need to make a Fort Save: Yes
Damage on a failed save: 26d6 (avg 91)
Damage on a successful save: 5d6 (avg 17.5)
Destruction:
Need to roll a hit: No
Need to make a Fort Save: Yes
Damage on a failed save: 130
Damage on a successful save: 10d6 (avg 35)
Mind you, I generally play Oracles that tend to be better full casters than Clerics, but still.
Yes its a whole spell level higher than Disintigrate, but it's also a DIVINE spell, which are generally very weak for damaging.
Treantmonk has some good guides on Wizards and Druids.You and pipedreamsam both recommended these guides, and they are good. I was looking for more input though. Treantmonk is incredibly knowledgeable and writes excellent guides. I just want more than one man's opinion.
I really liked the druid guides.
They are good. One thing to remember is that they were written before a lot of the supplemental books, so don't include all the archetypes, new spells and feats, etc.
For example, tm blasted blasters as largely ineffective. That was true at the time. Given the new books and options, you can make some darn fine blasters now.
I removed a 'First!' post. Those don't add anything to the coversation.
Easy one to answer. Flip through the Bestiaries. Find every monster with a CR 13 or higher. Look at their Fort saves and hp. A straight destruction from a caster of a level equal to the monster's CR won't destroy the monster if it fails its save...IF it fails its save. If the monster makes it, that's an average of 35 points of damage they'll take. Not impressive on the damage end, though cleric spells rarely are. As for the reviving the dead part, not usually an issue; you're trying to kill the target, why would you try to then bring them back? It makes for a potential plot device, but that's about all.For clerics, Core only:
7-...to offset this level being pretty painful. Holy word, greater restoration. Resurrection is nice to have but you hopefully will never use it. Destruction doesn't destroy much of anything.
Many of these spells are essential under the right circumstances, but not useful all the time. That's been my main problem with the class spell list, honestly.
Woah woah woah....
While I totally agree that 7th level spells are painfullly lacking, I really don't see how Destruction is not a great destroying things spell....
Automatic hit with no roll, and even if you make your save you take 10d6 damage! On top of that, it is a 7th level spell that, if it kills you, can only be undone by 9th level magic.
That seems solid to me.
You are using disintegrate on the wrong target. Look at instead as a nice chuck of C4 ready to remove objects in your way.
Why did only like 2 people point out Mage Armor? At low levels, when you'll only be in the dungeon for like an hour anyway +4 ac is great. Buy scrolls of it at first level and tell your fighter to save the cash on his armor.
By mid levels its still competitive to most "armor" items your Wiz is going to snag. Plus now its lasting almost half a workday or more so slap it on.
At higher levels oh sure, the meager +4 is piddly but added with the dozens of OTHER kinds of bonus types you now have access to and it STILL does its job. A +4 to your AC, saving you TONS of cash and being able to have 1 sheet of vellum with this spell in scroll form written on it twice and for the cost of 2 scrolls you have all day protection. Its kind of like magic deoderant.
Imagine: you are a 1st level wizard. A sudden goblin attack in the town square has led you and your party to a descent into the local sewers. You know you'll at least be facing goblins so you read one of your Scrolls of Mage Armor; +4 Armor bonus.
Walking a few hundred feet in your rogue tells you that up ahead he's spotted a horde of say 6 of the buggers plus a pair of giant rats. Some have crossbows. You know you're about to walk into a massive battle so you slap on a Sheild spell just before the surprise round; +4 AC bonus (bonus type unspecified.)
As you round the corner you now have a 20 AC (2 from your Dex), defenses against incorporeal opponents and from magic missiles, Alertness from the toad familiar on your shoulder and a couple more 1st level slots to lob into the fray along with acid splashes and rays of frost. Who could want more at 1st level? 20 AC for crying out loud! Many Paladins don't get that at 1st level!!!
I am surprised no one mentioned Rage. +1 will, +2 Str and +2 Dex is good in a melee party. Haste/Rage (Hage) is a mainstay for martials imo, and is at least moderately useful for casters too for the price of a measly 2 ac. If AC were a more useful stat for more people then it wouldn't be, but...
Web is also a great one, even heightened, for any non-reflex creatures Which is many of them.
Im surprised no one mentioned Levitate (2nd)... Many of the same advantages as Fly, but you get it 2 levels earlier.
Im surprised no one mentioned Levitate (2nd)... Many of the same advantages as Fly, but you get it 2 levels earlier.
I agree, it's overlooked. It'll get you out of a pit or over a high wall with little risk, and a scroll of it will definitely get used sometime.
You are using disintegrate on the wrong target. Look at instead as a nice chuck of C4 ready to remove objects in your way.
Destruction, not disintegrate my friend. I have no problems with disintegrate for just that reason you give. Destruction, OTOH....
Destruction, not disintegrate my friend. I have no problems with disintegrate for just that reason you give. Destruction, OTOH....
You are using disintegrate on the wrong target. Look at instead as a nice chuck of C4 ready to remove objects in your way.
You know I wish I could blame that misread on being sleepy or something -- but I can't, I simply flubbed it. Yeah Destruction is a pretty... lacking spell, unless you know they are almost dead and 10d6 can finish them and you want to be sure that they stay rather dead once you are finished... and even then I would suggest there are better/easier ways to do it.
Destruction seems pretty good if you can get your DC up there. Destroying the creature without harming it's gear seems pretty good. There's no cap on the damage if they fail their save.
Arcane
0th mage hand, presdigitation, dancing lights
1st grease, truestrike(telekinesis), enlarge person
2nd glitterdust, false life, make whole
3rd haste, haste, haste, dispel magic, magic circle
4th enervation, d. door, confusion
5th wall of stone, telekinesis, magic jar
6th disintigrate, greater heroism, planar binding
7th reverse gravity, greater teleport/scrying/polymorph
8th maze, moment of prescience, dimensional lock
9th wish, time stop, prismatic sphere
Cleric
0th create water, stabilise, guidance
1st clw, divine favour, bless
2nd silence, hold person, shield other
3rd dispel magic, prayer, stoneshape
4th greater magic weapon, freedom of movement, divine power
5th breath of life, plane shift, raise dead
6th heal, word of recall, banishment
7th ethereal jaunt, greater restoration, destruction
cleric spells start getting worse after about 6th or 7th level until miracle at 9th, there are some ok spells in core and some pretty good ones in other books but nothing really indispensable.
all the summoning spells for both wizard and cleric since they are so handy, i hate druids, never played one never bothered with the spells.
Destruction seems pretty good if you can get your DC up there. Destroying the creature without harming it's gear seems pretty good. There's no cap on the damage if they fail their save.
Ah, now go look at monsters with CRs higher than 13. Compare their hp with a caster of a level equal to their CR. Monster hp increases faster than 10 pts. per CR boost, meaning that any foe you hit from the Bestiary is likely to be proportionately less affected. Against creatures with mostly class levels, it can work well if they fail their save. Then again, their equipment is equally safe from harm if the fighter just power attacks them into paste, so it's still not that great.
Cleric/Oracle
0- detect magic
1- cure light wounds, protection from C/E/G/L,
2- make whole, restoration lesser, silence
3- daylight, dispel magic, invisibility purge
4- dimensional anchor, freedom of movement, restoration
5- break enchantment, true seeing
6- greater dispel magic, heal, wind walk
7- greater restoration
8-
9-gate, miracle
Druid
0- detect magic
1- cure light wounds
2-
3- daylight, greater magic fang
4- dispel magic, freedom of movement
5-
6- greater dispel magic
7- heal
8-
9-
Sorcerer/Wizard
0- acid splash, detect magic
1- protection from C/E/G/L, grease,
2- see invisibility, mirror image
3- dispel magic, arcane sight, daylight, haste
4- dimensional anchor
5- break enchantment, teleport, telekinesis
6- greater dispel magic, true seeing, disintegrate
7- greater arcane sight, limited wish
8- mind blank, polymorph any object
9- gate, time stop, wish
Witch
0- detect magic
1- cure light wounds
2- see invisibility
3- arcane sight, dispel magic
4-
5- break enchantment, teleport
6- greater dispel magic, true seeing
7- greater arcane sight, heal
8- mind blank
9-
Limited Wish, Wish
As awsome as these spells are, their usefulness is really dependant on the amount of wealth in the campaign. If you're wealthy enough to go blow through 1500 and 25000 value diamonds without going broke then by all means take and use them. In a game where characters just don't have that kind of money then those spells (and to a lesser extent any spells with costly material components) aren't as worthwhile.
Destruction seems pretty good if you can get your DC up there. Destroying the creature without harming it's gear seems pretty good. There's no cap on the damage if they fail their save.Ah, now go look at monsters with CRs higher than 13. Compare their hp with a caster of a level equal to their CR. Monster hp increases faster than 10 pts. per CR boost, meaning that any foe you hit from the Bestiary is likely to be proportionately less affected. Against creatures with mostly class levels, it can work well if they fail their save. Then again, their equipment is equally safe from harm if the fighter just power attacks them into paste, so it's still not that great.
I understand that the Destruction spell isn't generally going to be killing things from full health to dead in one casting at appropriate CR...
What I am getting at is that if you are a casting based Cleric/Oracle, and you decide that the best option at a given moment is to do some damage, what spell that is on your list is going to do better?If you have a 7th level spell slot open and you want to do something offensive, what better spell are you going to cast?
This is the point I am trying to make.
The next best damage spell at around that level for a Cleric/Oracle is probably Harm, which is worse, requires an attack roll, requires getting into melee range, and is in a spell level that has LOTS of other good spells.
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If you have a 7th level spell slot open and you want to do something offensive, what better spell are you going to cast?
Summon Monster VII, Blade Barrier (6th level), Cold Ice Strike (6th level Swift action!), Harm (6th level, which deals more damage on a successful save and touch attacks are easy to land anyway), hell, Flame Strike (5th level) does more damage if you can catch three enemies in it.
Sorry, Destruction is a terrible spell. Disintegrate would be, as well, if it weren't for its ability to annihilate almost any object/wall/whatever from existence.
I haven't stop reading so keep posting. I'm actually making some lists and seeing what the general consensus is. I know that it's actually going to be more campaign dependent than what I would see on the boards, but this will give me some good places to start looking. There are a lot of spells that look good at first, but in actual play aren't nearly as good or lose their luster as you level.
Sor/Wiz
0th: detect magic, light, mage hand, prestidigitation
1st: magic missile, silent image
2nd: invisibility, mirror image
3rd: haste, slow
4th: black tentacles, dimension door
5th: overland flight, telekinesis
6th: contingency, greater dispel magic
7th: greater teleport, reverse gravity
8th: moment of prescience, polymorph any object
9th: time stop, wish
Cleric/Oracle
0th: create water, detect magic, light, stabilize
1st: cure light wounds, obscuring mist
2nd: lesser restoration, silence
3rd: magic circle, stone shape
4th: air walk, freedom of movement
5th: fickle winds, greater command
6th: greater dispel magic, heal
7th: greater scrying
8th: earthquake
9th: gate, miracle
For both types, add whatever is the best Summon Monster spell you can have at that level.
I think the best spells are pretty much always "control" and "utility" types, especially those that are both at once. I gave my list above for Sorcerers/Wizards, and any spell that appears on that list that is also a Divine spell is a good choice. I'm not really one for blasting, so just go with your favorites every couple levels.
Clerics are not my style. Their lists lack control, though, so I tend to view them basically as "better melee," since, buffed up, they're way better than Fighters.
Druids, on the other hand, have a select few spells that would be the envy of any control Sorcerer--and in fact, a pair of them are responsible for making the Verdant/Groveborn Sorcerer actually worth playing. So, here's my Druid list (note that obviously, Summons will always be useful and belong on the list at every level, as are all the Restorations, Heal, and Resurrection variants, which I will not list either:
1st - Entangle!, Frostbite (for wildshaping druids)
2nd - Barkskin, Delay Poison (it's actually "long duration immunity to Poison"), Resist Energy, Warp Wood, Wood Shape
3rd - Greater Magic Fang (much cheaper than Amulet of Might Fists), Spike Growth, Stone Shape
4th - Freedom of Movement, Spike Stones
5th - Animal Growth, Awaken (an Awakened Colossal Tree is a brutal ally, better than a Treant from the level 6 Liveoak spell and there's no size limit like the 7th level Animate Plant), Wall of Thorns! (possibly the Druid's best spell overall, followed by Entangle)
6th - Antilife Shell (borderline unfair), Repel Wood (Wait for the combo later), Wall of Stone
7th - Transmute Metal to Wood (+ Repel Wood, Warp Wood, and/or Wood Shape = win)
8th - Frightful Aspect (no save on the fear effects), Repel Metal or Stone (so Transmute is no longer necessary), Reverse Gravity, Wall of Lava
9th - Elemental Swarm, Polar Midnight