What other Hybrid classes would you like to see?


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Milo v3 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^I got you -- if you are thinking of a full hybrid that actually does some Witchy stuff, then yes, something new is needed.

Isn't everyone talking about full hybrids? That's the point of this thread isn't it :P

Well, several of the ideas are much more of one parent class than the other -- hence the frequent points to and/or requests for hybrid archetypes. I actually want to see what I can think of myself for Paladin/Witch hybrids, but not tonight when I have to get up early for work. :-(

SmiloDan wrote:
An Int-based bard/ranger/rogue that can use Knowledge checks to find magical or sacred materials or items that can be used for condition removal, and then help you on the quest to retrieve them. For example, if you get cursed, this guy knows about a sacred valley nearby where a magical flower grows that can remove your curse.

Questioner Investigator goes part way to what you want, and you might be able to get the rest of the way there by building for it -- some assembly required, but it looks like a pretty good start. (And you've got to love that ability named "Know It All".)

(*)Due to site migration in progress of www.d20pfsrd.com, here are 2 links in case something messes up: Old and New (as part of migration not being done yet, the new page isn't even linked from the new site's Investigator page).


Milo v3 wrote:
Because evolutions are broken and sort of all over the place when it comes to balanced. Being a hybrid class means you can give the class full attention to balance when it comes to what abilities you give it, without having to worry about taking up too much space.

Are you trying to tell me that making a list of legal evolutions would take up more space than an entire class? There are evolutions with unclear language, but since they got reprinted in Unchained without change, that doesn't seem to bother Paizo.

Note that such an archetype would probably count as a biped Eidolon, and thus Pounce wouldn't be aviable, anyway.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Moreover you're going to end up linking it to unchained summoner (has normal summoner gotten any love from any book whose production cycle began after unchained was released?) so its probably going to have to pick a subtype.

There is no official Paizo policy against using the cSummoner, so this is not a problem. Not that making the fighter count as specific subtypes would be a problem in the first place...

I'm not saying it wouldn't be possibly to make a full hybrid class out of the idea, but that "martial with evolutions tacked on" isn't enough for one. Every hybrid class has new class features (like martial flexibility, inspiration, or fervor) that are something the parent classes don't have. So what new class features that blend summoner and fighter does your hybrid class have?


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Derklord wrote:
Are you trying to tell me that making a list of legal evolutions would take up more space than an entire class?

If I was making it, I probably would alter the language of a lot of the evolutions and how many points things take. I don't really agree with the evolutions system paizo has written. Also, they're pretty limited and don't have many options for character concepts outside of "natural attacker". So, even if it takes more space than "here is a list of evolutions you can take" at least it'd be good design rather than lazy design.


Derklord wrote:


Basically, everyone proposing a hybrid class should ask himself this:
1) Can my idea be done with an archetype for an existing class? If you only want one or two class features from class A, there's little reason not to add them to an existing class B via archetype. Or the other way around, if you want most of class A, there's little reason not to just make an archetype for it.
2) Can I envision archetypes for my hybrid class? A real class can be build in many different ways, both from a mechanic and a flavor point of view. Generally, archetypes are specializations - if your class can't be further specialized, i.e. if every character you'd build with your hybrid class would be roughly the same, than it doesn't work as a stand alone class.

This....

For any new class to actually be viable as opposed to.... "Oooooh wouldn't a Medium/Cavalier hybrid be great!?".... it has to be able to generate at least additional 6 solid archetypes.

Sadly IMO Paizo has gone overboard on the archetype thing and massively muddied the water regarding new classes.

HOWEVER.... I do think a 'Big Trouble in Little China' style Monk/X hybrid would be cool and viable! :))


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Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:

I am partial to the idea of a Bard/Monk myself.

A wandering sage that tells proverbs to unlearned villagers one day and advises a King in the matters of the metaphysical the next. The spread of knowledge is their trade, knowledge within and without.

They would play as something of a more skilled and supportive Monk, or a Bard who trades spells for Ki and martial arts. I'm not sure which.

Would they also tell such truths that make the enemy flee in terror? Because I'd totally play that.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Fighter monk that ditches armor training armor proficiency, unarmed stike some bonus feats and every weapon training beyond weapon training 1 for monk abilities, specialization in the monk weapon group, monk ac and speed bonuses

So something that works as well as the core Monk?


A Fighter/Summoner is probably most well represented by an Aegis, from DSP's Psionics.

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How about a rogue/summoner that always has the right tool for the job? They summon equipment.


tresson wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Fighter monk that ditches armor training armor proficiency, unarmed stike some bonus feats and every weapon training beyond weapon training 1 for monk abilities, specialization in the monk weapon group, monk ac and speed bonuses
So something that works as well as the core Monk?

Throw in a better Reflex Save and you would have something that works better than the unarchetyped Core Monk -- see Unchained Monk.


tresson wrote:
Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:

I am partial to the idea of a Bard/Monk myself.

A wandering sage that tells proverbs to unlearned villagers one day and advises a King in the matters of the metaphysical the next. The spread of knowledge is their trade, knowledge within and without.

They would play as something of a more skilled and supportive Monk, or a Bard who trades spells for Ki and martial arts. I'm not sure which.

Would they also tell such truths that make the enemy flee in terror? Because I'd totally play that.

Definitely.


Some sort of warlord or tactician seems like what you might get out of a Bard/Fighter hybrid. If it's already been suggested I apologise, this thread is starting to get long and I haven't read it all.

Less to no magic, buffing/leadership abilities and perhaps debuffs from 'predicting' what the enemy will do. I'm fairly certain there's enough possible variants on the idea to make a few archetypes.


We already do have sort of a Bard-Fighter Hybrid in the Exemplar Brawler Archetype. Not sure how close it is to what was requested, though.


@Above 2 posts:

Existing ways to do Bard/Fighter hybrid tactician (and they're actually pretty cool): See this Battle Herald prestige class guide.

Notable examples of entry routes:

  • If you use Bard VMC Cavalier to get into this prestige class, you could get 2nd level spellcasting and good starting skill points
  • If you use Evangelist Cleric VMC Cavalier, you can get 3rd level spellcasting; if you also select Order of the Star for your Cavalier Order, you can even make your Channel Energy decent and make it remain relevant through your Battle Herald levels, despite Evangelist Cleric trading out some of the damage dice.
  • If you use Exemplar Brawler VMC Cavalier, you will be full BAB and have the ability to grant Teamwork Feats to your allies (gained at 5th level instead of needing to wait for VMC Cavalier to give it at 11th level), including Teamwork Feats that you pick up with Martial Flexibility.
  • If you use Cavalier VMC Bard, you will be full BAB and with most Cavalier archetypes you can qualify for the Horse Master feat to keep your Mount at full level (the downside: entry into the prestige class will have to wait until 8th level, or 9th if you want to hang out for your 8th level Cavalier Order ability).
  • If you use normal multiclassing of Daring Champion Cavalier and Exemplar Brawler, you will be full BAB, get free Weapon Finesse and potentially Swashbuckler deeds (requires 4th level Daring Champion Cavalier), and potentially have the ability to grant Teamwork Feats to your allies, including Teamwork Feats that you pick up with Martial Flexibility (requires 5th level Exemplar Brawler); furthermore, by NOT going VMC as in the examples above, you will actually have a decent number of feats.
Now that I went back to this and have thought about it more, I think I want to do some variant of this for a Kingmaker character.


The exemplar brawler is close enough to be a variant of the idea, which I suppose would rule out such a hybrid. The VMC options being short of feats don't quite sound like a fighter hybrid to me and I'm not sure that Cavalier 4/Brawler 5/Battle Herald would be terribly effective which is a definite turnoff.

Though yes, a battle herald would be perfect for Kingmaker.


^Good point about the VMC options being short on feats (you're really a Bard/Cavalier hybrid instead of a Bard/Fighter hybrid -- by "Fighter" I was thinking more of martial in general, although admittedly Fighter has acquired some real class personality of its own ever since the Weapon Master's Handbook came out).

For the normal multiclassing of Daring Champion Cavalier + Exemplar Brawler you wouldn't want to get 4 or 5 levels of each right away -- choose which one has the additional ability you want more, and save the other one for after you get done with Battle Herald.


SmiloDan wrote:
An Int-based bard/ranger/rogue that can use Knowledge checks to find magical or sacred materials or items that can be used for condition removal, and then help you on the quest to retrieve them. For example, if you get cursed, this guy knows about a sacred valley nearby where a magical flower grows that can remove your curse.

This is along the lines of the arcane ranger concept I had, tentatively Arcanist style casting. Custom spell-list for utility goodness required. I think the idea of retaining ranger nature-y stuff is also important, this is the guy who roams the wilds ready for mundane and arcane danger. Come to think of it, would probably tie in great with the Magaambyan connection. You could do similar with Psychic Ranger approach. But the point is it's not a magicked up Fighter, it would be very skillsy, utility abilities, etc, while also being viable compatant.


I'd actually like a Kineticist/Monk. I am not a fan at all of the archetype that is suppose to simulate this, I think a straight class would do it more justice


I'd like to see a Bard/Wizard hybrid. Mostly Bard spell list, but make it a 9th prepared Int caster. 1/2 BAB, bardic performance as-is or keyed to magic (Magician's Dweomercraft). Maybe some bonus feats, depending on what/how many performances are allotted. I'd certainly play it. Witch spell list scratched an itch, but mechanically and flavorfully left me wanting. Puppetmaster Magus got a little closer, but is too melee focused and nearly unplayable. Nothing has, yet, given me the true magical artiste vibe.


^Make it an archetype of Enchanter and Illusionist Wizards (you can pick either one of these Arcane Schools or their Subschools), that replaces Scribe Scroll and Wizard Bonus feats with what basically amounts to VMC Bard, but tweaked to suit replacing the different schedule of replacement (also don't leave anything stuck at a fixed level -- I hate that in any VMC). Also have fixed Opposition Schools Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy (but you can still use Opposition Research on them), but in exchange you get to cast all of the spells from the Bard list, in many cases level-bumped so that you get them at about the same class level that a Bard would (in other words, compensating for being a 9/9 caster instead of a 6/9 caster).

* * * * * * * *

I really do want to think of how to do a Witch/Paladin and/or Witch/Antipaladin hybrid, but my brain keeps wanting to make an archetype of either Witch or Paladin/Antipaladin. But one thing I noticed while trying to think of this is that if you hide all the Paladin/Antipaladin class table entries that just give 1 more use of something they got earlier (Lay on Hands, Smite), their class tables actually get rather sparse, so you don't have as many things to replace on these classes as you might think.

I wonder if Champion of the Faith Warpriest might be a better starting chassis? It already does part of what you want for a full hybrid: gives you the in between hit dice (d8), Base Attack Bonus (3/4), and spellcasting (6/9, and still prepared), and Smite (and not Channel Energy). Then replace Sacred Weapon with Lay on Hands/Touch of Corruption (and eventually Channel Energy, Paladin/Antipaladin style), and replace Blessings with a Patron (adds Patron spells 1 level after you become high enough level to cast them) and a Witch-style Familiar (actually more like a Shaman Spirit Animal). Replace the truncated Cleric/Oracle spell list with the union of the Paladin/Antipaladin spell list and a truncated Witch spell list (Hunter-style merger), and Shaman-style spell preparation dependency, and remove spontaneous casting of Cure/Inflict-series spells, but keep the restriction against casting spells having an opposed alignment descriptor. Spellcasting is still divine. Replace bonus feats with choice of Mercies/Cruelties and Witch Hexes (you choose one of either type each time you would have gotten a bonus feat, and available choices of Mercies/Cruelties uses same rules as for Paladin/Antipaladin, while choice of Hexes upgrades to Major Hexes at 12th level and Grand Hexes at 18th level). Replace Warpriest Code of Conduct with Paladin or Antipaladin Code of Conduct. This is an awful lot of replacements, and in the future you will probably want archetypes eventually, so regenerate the class table and text describing all the abilities, and generate a new (initially blank) archetype table (but when you do make archetypes, update it, unlike www.d20pfsrd.com in recent years).


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Make it an archetype of Enchanter and Illusionist Wizards (you can pick either one of these Arcane Schools or their Subschools), that replaces Scribe Scroll and Wizard Bonus feats with what basically amounts to VMC Bard, but tweaked to suit replacing the different schedule of replacement (also don't leave anything stuck at a fixed level -- I hate that in any VMC). Also have fixed Opposition Schools Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy (but you can still use Opposition Research on them), but in exchange you get to cast all of the spells from the Bard list, in many cases level-bumped so that you get them at about the same class level that a Bard would (in other words, compensating for being a 9/9 caster instead of a 6/9 caster).

* * * * * * * *

I really do want to think of how to do a Witch/Paladin and/or Witch/Antipaladin hybrid, but my brain keeps wanting to make an archetype of either Witch or Paladin/Antipaladin. But one thing I noticed while trying to think of this is that if you hide all the Paladin/Antipaladin class table entries that just give 1 more use of something they got earlier (Lay on Hands, Smite), their class tables actually get rather sparse, so you don't have as many things to replace on these classes as you might think.

I keep telling you, combine common stuff, jettison what doesn't fit the theme, but don't necessarily lose higher level class abilities.


^Well, that's the thing. Paladin/Antipaladin and Witch DON'T have anything in common. So you have to come up with something new, like Magus as the hybrid of Fighter and Wizard. That's what I was trying to do above with starting with a Champion of the Faith Warpriest (not just any Warpriest) chassis that has at least a little bit of the work done already.


I suggest you take a look at the Pathfinder Community website. Specifically the Arcane Masters I PDF, which has the white witch (a witch/paladin hybrid class).

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Maybe a hexing smite? Instead of granting the paladin bonuses to attack and damage and AC, it penalizes the AC and/or saves of the target, maybe even granting it vulnerability to one or more damage or energy types.


Morgan Champion wrote:
I suggest you take a look at the Pathfinder Community website. Specifically the Arcane Masters I PDF, which has the white witch (a witch/paladin hybrid class).

I found several interesting hybrids (including Arcane Fist -- I knew I had seen that somewhere), but not that one. Sure it isn't in a different PDF?


Melkiador wrote:
I would like a hybrid that replaces the mystic theurge.

I am seeing the witch as something akin to that in practice. Their spell list has both traditionally arcane and divine spells, their patron gives them more, and they have a connection to "something".


Morgan Champion wrote:
I suggest you take a look at the Pathfinder Community website. Specifically the Arcane Masters I PDF, which has the white witch (a witch/paladin hybrid class).

I've always wanted to make a version of the Desperado class that didn't suck. No bonuses to hit until level 12 (and it takes a full round to activate, only lasts one turn) or a more practical version at level 16, no quick clear until level 3, no dex to damage with firearm, no spellcasting, and no utility?

Its just so bad. I really love the idea of a Gunslinger Bard who makes their own spaghetti western duel music, (and the concept of only having a single bardic song that has advanced abilities that take more and more rounds of Bardic Performance to activate is awesome) but the class is just so poorly designed.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
I really do want to think of how to do a Witch/Paladin and/or Witch/Antipaladin hybrid, but my brain keeps wanting to make an archetype of either Witch or Paladin/Antipaladin.

Honestly the witch and (anti)paladin classes' actual features are sparse enough I think you could almost just smash them together on a 3/4 bab chassis with full spellcasting and the sheer action economy issues and not-amazing witch spell list would actually keep it in line.

Now I want to make a sketch:
Everything about the class (smite, lay on hands) is Int based because we have Oracles and Shamans already. 3/4 BAB, d8 hit dice, have to be good or evil. 9th level prepared spellcasting as witch. Medium armor proficiency and spellcasting in? Martial weapons.

Unique thing: Replace Smite Evil/Good with Smiting Hex: It functions like Smite (but maybe on anything to avoid "I'm useless against many normal enemies"?) but it's a reusable hex with standard action activation instead of a swift action. The fact that you're only a 3/4 BAB and d8 hp pulls the power boost down a lot and makes it needed for general combat.

Witch Familiar and spellcasting, but also get (anti)paladin spells. Maybe split up some Patron options between good and evil.

Replace Divine Grace with just having all 3 good saves?

Lay on Hands but Int based. Now sort of Fervor-like you can spend 2 uses of LoH to use a Hex (but NOT cast spells) as a swift action. Level 4 gets the spend 2 uses for Channel Energy. Probably burn through these like crazy, effectively 1/4 your level/day swift hexes if you use it for that.

Every 3 levels (3,6,etc) you can choose a Hex or Mercy/Cruelty. After level 10 you can pick Major Hexes. At level 20 you get one Grand Hex.

Divine/Infernal Bond: Level 5 gives your familiar celestial/infernal template and you make the choice between it getting the ability to enchant your weapon or getting the ability to change back and forth between familiar and equal druid level animal companion mount or a demon/angel buddy off the summon monsters. Powerful but extra risky because it's still your spell-toting familiar.

I think you could almost just smoosh all the paladin auras on and nobody would notice they're all so circumstantial.

Now this hybrid can do lots of things, but not all at once. It can Smiting Hex neutral people all day, but kind of needs to because of BAB. Has curse spells and paladin buffs but has to work them in between fighting and hexing. Only has half the hexes of a witch. Has all kinds of control options and decent fighting, but can't cast Divine Power or Haste on itself to win the DPR olympics like Warpriests and Inquisitors.


Blind Monkey wrote:
9th level prepared spellcasting as witch.

It'd be more appropriate to have witch casting up to 6th level the same way the hunter does with the druid list.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Blind Monkey wrote:
9th level prepared spellcasting as witch.
It'd be more appropriate to have witch casting up to 6th level the same way the hunter does with the druid list.

I sort of disagree, this is in the vein of the shaman, oracle, druid, and cleric as 9th level spells with 3/4 bab and d8 hd that can do a decent job of fighting if you build for it, except it uses Intelligence and has a weaker spell list. If you're going to cut it down to 6th level spells you need to add a bunch of entirely new features and bonus feats like the warpriest, hunter, inquisitor, etc. have to make up for it.


You want to make a prepared arcane full caster with medium BAB, d8 HD, three good saves, Patrons, Lay on Hands, Hexes, the ability to quicken hexes, and an animal companion/parmanent SM?

Blind Monkey wrote:
If you're going to cut it down to 6th level spells you need to add a bunch of entirely new features and bonus feats like the warpriest, hunter, inquisitor, etc. have to make up for it.

Entirely new class features are the entire point of any class.


Weaker spell list to use on 6/9 spellcasting was why I went for a union spell list between Paladin/Antipaladin (which is not bad if you think about it) and truncated Witch spell list (with restriction against casting spells having an opposed alignment descriptor). With 6/9 spellcasting, you could actually do practical metamagic on the Paladin/Antipaladin spells once you get to levels at which no more of these are available.


The (anti)paladin spell list is decent, but the fact that the witch spell list is not great is why I was considering making it like the existing 9th level casters with 3/4 bab. You are already missing the key crazy spells that let clerics be better fighters than fighters.

Derklord wrote:
You want to make a prepared arcane full caster with medium BAB, d8 HD, three good saves, Patrons, Lay on Hands, Hexes, the ability to quicken hexes, and an animal companion/parmanent SM?

It does not sound like you actually are reading how the proposed works. Three good saves is a downgrade from Divine Grace and prevents dipping just for Grace. Patron is just themed bonus spells. Hexes are greatly cut down from witches and share space with LoH bonuses, and using 2 uses of LoH to swift-cast a Smiting Hex like a Paladin does means you can do it only around the number of times a Paladin can Smite by using up all your LoH. The companion/summon is just like divine/infernal bond except you are risking your familiar AKA your spellbook if you want to go combat crazy.

Prepared full casters with medium BAB, d8 HD, and class features arguably on par or better than this already exist. Also literally everyone in the entire game can be having a permanent companion with full equivalent druid level. It is not a wild game-breaking thing to have as a possible class feature.


I think the Paladin is a hybrid class of the fighter and cleric.

For the hybrid witch paladin you could combine hexes and mercies.
A war witch of Gorum might have a rage hex that heals a point a round of combat.


Blind Monkey wrote:
It does not sound like you actually are reading how the proposed works. Patron is just themed bonus spells. Hexes are greatly cut down from witches and share space with LoH bonuses, and using 2 uses of LoH to swift-cast a Smiting Hex like a Paladin does means you can do it only around the number of times a Paladin can Smite by using up all your LoH. The companion/summon is just like divine/infernal bond except you are risking your familiar AKA your spellbook if you want to go combat crazy.
  • Saves: It's not a downgrade from Divine Grace because Witches don't have Divine Grace. You make a pure addition to the Witch.
  • Patron: Still helps improve the spell list.
  • Hexes: A hex every third level is more than enough.
  • Swift Hexes: It doesn't matter that it's only a few times per day, Witches can quicken their hexes zero times per day. You make a pure addition to the Witch.
  • LoH: It doesn't matter that it shares recources with quicken Hex, witches don't get such self healing at all. You make a pure addition to the Witch.
  • Companion/Summoning: Definitely stronger than a regular Familiar. You make a pure addition to the Witch.

Yes, if you want to melee with this character, you run into action economy issues. The problem is that you don't seem to see that such a character would be overpowered if simply used as an arcane prepared full caster.

Blind Monkey wrote:
Prepared full casters with medium BAB, d8 HD, and class features arguably on par or better than this already exist.

Not arcane ones.

If you want to make the whole thing not horrendously overpowered, you definitely need to make it a 6/9 caster (the only existing hybrid between a full caster and a 4/9 caster has 6/9 casting). I would also advise going divine casting, because a character who has a huge divine influence but get's spells from studying is just weird. You'd also need to give the class a proper identity (both emchanical and flavor wise), because we already have a divine hexing class (Shaman, plus a cleric archetype with hexes (Divine Scourge)), and a divine martial with strong debuffing capabilities (Antipaladin).

All four existing full arcane casters are 6HD and 1/2BAB. Since the CRB and it's (then) worst class, there hasn't been a single class with three good saves (not even the unchained version). Seriously, if you want to make a balanced class, do not start with breaking multiple design principles!


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Goth Guru wrote:
I think the Paladin is a hybrid class of the fighter and cleric.

Aside from being a Full BAB class, fighter doesn't really have anything in common with paladin. Makes more sense if paladin is a hybrid of cavalier and cleric.


Derklord wrote:
Not arcane ones.

This mostly just makes it seem like you do not understand that the only reason "arcane spellcasting" was considered better in the past is because before the new PF spell lists "arcane" meant "wizard spell list", which let you create your own universe to sit in and manufacture an army of simulacrums while casting Wish if you wanted to. Since you do not seem to realize this, the witch does not get the wizard spell list. Without the wizard spell list and picking through an always expanding several hundred spells arcane casting is actually weaker than divine casting.

You also do not seem to understand that witches mostly float around hexing things to debuff them but most hexes can only be tried once per target, which is their one big class feature and why they get 6 hexes by level 10. Not getting a choice of hex until level 3 and only 3 by level 10 is a large downgrade. If you wanted to just be an arcane spellcaster that doesn't attack, playing a wizard is massively overpowered in comparison to anything listed here. The fact that you do not seem to understand any of this means there's probably no reason to continue.

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Milo v3 wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
I think the Paladin is a hybrid class of the fighter and cleric.
Aside from being a Full BAB class, fighter doesn't really have anything in common with paladin. Makes more sense if paladin is a hybrid of cavalier and cleric.

The Ride skill. ;-)

How about a Ranger/Witch class that learns how to use different monster abilities as hexes. So if you kill a cockatrice, you can petrify like a cockatrice. If you blind a Cyclops, you can use Flash of Insight. If you strangle a dragon, you can breathe fire. Stuff like that.


SmiloDan wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
I think the Paladin is a hybrid class of the fighter and cleric.
Aside from being a Full BAB class, fighter doesn't really have anything in common with paladin. Makes more sense if paladin is a hybrid of cavalier and cleric.

The Ride skill. ;-)

How about a Ranger/Witch class that learns how to use different monster abilities as hexes. So if you kill a cockatrice, you can petrify like a cockatrice. If you blind a Cyclops, you can use Flash of Insight. If you strangle a dragon, you can breathe fire. Stuff like that.

Monster hunter class sounds amazing. Would you open up access to all monster types immediately or do a favored enemy type thing with it?


Blind Monkey wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Not arcane ones.

This mostly just makes it seem like you do not understand that the only reason "arcane spellcasting" was considered better in the past is because before the new PF spell lists "arcane" meant "wizard spell list", which let you create your own universe to sit in and manufacture an army of simulacrums while casting Wish if you wanted to. Since you do not seem to realize this, the witch does not get the wizard spell list. Without the wizard spell list and picking through an always expanding several hundred spells arcane casting is actually weaker than divine casting.

{. . .}

The Witch spell list is not as bad as people make it out to be -- it is an arcane/divine hybrid list that is missing some of the flashiest stuff from the Sorcerer/Wizard list and a subset of the bad status removal stuff and awesome self-buffing stuff of the Cleric/Oracle list, but it has a fair fraction of each, and the missing stuff is small enough that you can do a pretty good job of filling one of these in with the right choice of Patron. Unfortunately, somebody forgot about the need to fill in the spell list with choice of Patron when they made the Unlettered Arcanist archetype, which is thus truly worse than the vanilla Arcanist.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Monster hunter class sounds amazing. Would you open up access to all monster types immediately or do a favored enemy type thing with it?

It would make the most sense from both balance and flavor to have this tied to Favored Enemy. Also eventually have it work with Instant Enemy, which doesn't last a huge amount of time, and is at the highest level of spells a Ranger can cast, so it isn't overpowered.


SmiloDan wrote:


How about a Ranger/Witch class that learns how to use different monster abilities as hexes. So if you kill a cockatrice, you can petrify like a cockatrice. If you blind a Cyclops, you can use Flash of Insight. If you strangle a dragon, you can breathe fire. Stuff like that.

I thought up something similar as part of a Alchemist/Monk hybrid which consumed creatures alex mercer style, gaining ki and the ability to take some physical abilities from them. But it had the issue of needing me to write down so many monster abilities (so many potential abilities), I got lazy and distracted with other homebrews.


Milo v3 wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:


How about a Ranger/Witch class that learns how to use different monster abilities as hexes. So if you kill a cockatrice, you can petrify like a cockatrice. If you blind a Cyclops, you can use Flash of Insight. If you strangle a dragon, you can breathe fire. Stuff like that.
I thought up something similar as part of a Alchemist/Monk hybrid which consumed creatures alex mercer style, gaining ki and the ability to take some physical abilities from them. But it had the issue of needing me to write down so many monster abilities (so many potential abilities), I got lazy and distracted with other homebrews.

Easiest way would probably let them choose off the list for beast shape spells or similar.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Easiest way would probably let them choose off the list for beast shape spells or similar.

Those spells are so minimalistic that basically every single character is going to be 100% identical until the very highest of levels. I may as well just have them get the powers as a progression from leveling up. At that point, that's so limiting compared to what the concept of the class can do, I don't feel it's worth the time making it.

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Maybe base the powers on CR?


Milo v3 wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:


How about a Ranger/Witch class that learns how to use different monster abilities as hexes. So if you kill a cockatrice, you can petrify like a cockatrice. If you blind a Cyclops, you can use Flash of Insight. If you strangle a dragon, you can breathe fire. Stuff like that.
I thought up something similar as part of a Alchemist/Monk hybrid which consumed creatures alex mercer style, gaining ki and the ability to take some physical abilities from them. But it had the issue of needing me to write down so many monster abilities (so many potential abilities), I got lazy and distracted with other homebrews.

You can adapt what you have so far and add it to my leveled mutations list. You do not have to go it alone.

Go to Leveled Mutations.


SmiloDan wrote:
Maybe base the powers on CR?

I don't really understand what you're saying here, since balance wasn't the issue.

Goth Guru wrote:

You can adapt what you have so far and add it to my leveled mutations list. You do not have to go it alone.

Go to Leveled Mutations.

I only ended up making a few so you probably have all the ones I made covered in concept since I only did ones like Armour, Claws, Disguise, Nocturnal before I started making a giant list of potential powers... at which point my poor work ethic kicked in. But if I do go back to the class I can use some of those mutations as foundations.


Goth Guru wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:


How about a Ranger/Witch class that learns how to use different monster abilities as hexes. So if you kill a cockatrice, you can petrify like a cockatrice. If you blind a Cyclops, you can use Flash of Insight. If you strangle a dragon, you can breathe fire. Stuff like that.
I thought up something similar as part of a Alchemist/Monk hybrid which consumed creatures alex mercer style, gaining ki and the ability to take some physical abilities from them. But it had the issue of needing me to write down so many monster abilities (so many potential abilities), I got lazy and distracted with other homebrews.

You can adapt what you have so far and add it to my leveled mutations list. You do not have to go it alone.

Go to Leveled Mutations.

Suddenly I have this idea of making something like these into VMC Monster classes -- work like VMC, but instead of corresponding to a primary class that you didn't take, they correspond to monsters (actually, usually to classes of monsters).


I'm about to add disguise. Here's a clue, doppelgangers can choose another class besides identity thief. Also MPD can be a special feat.

Back on topic, would a combination alterationist wizard/ rogue be a Master of Disguise?


I always liked the idea of a rogue/wizard who was a master of divination, like the ultimate spy and can use his divination powers to dodge attacks and ignore surprises.


Goth Guru wrote:

I'm about to add disguise. Here's a clue, doppelgangers can choose another class besides identity thief. Also MPD can be a special feat.

Back on topic, would a combination alterationist wizard/ rogue be a Master of Disguise?

Alterationist(*)? Do you mean Transmuter? This would work. But since Disguise is a Charisma-based skill (anyone know of a trait that changes it to Intelligence-based?), you might want to consider Sorcerer/Ninja instead.

(*)Shadows of 1st Edition?


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

I'm about to add disguise. Here's a clue, doppelgangers can choose another class besides identity thief. Also MPD can be a special feat.

Back on topic, would a combination alterationist wizard/ rogue be a Master of Disguise?

Alterationist(*)? Do you mean Transmuter? This would work. But since Disguise is a Charisma-based skill (anyone know of a trait that changes it to Intelligence-based?), you might want to consider Sorcerer/Ninja instead.

(*)Shadows of 1st Edition?

Clever Wordplay lets you take a Charisma-based skill and make it Intelligence-based.

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