Armor Check Penalty--attribute based?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Is the armor check penalty defined by the ability score the skill uses or just the skill itself?

For example, if I could turn Fly into an int-based skill, is there still an ACP? Likewise, if bluff were based off of dexterity, would it then have an armor check penalty. Specifically if Disable Device were based off of Int?


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Armor Check Penalty

Armor Check Penalty wrote:
Any armor heavier than leather, as well as any shield, hurts a character's ability to use Dex- and Str-based skills. An armor check penalty applies to all Dex- and Strength-based skill checks.

FAQ about ability based skills

If I'm reading and applying the FAQ correctly, if you've managed to change a Dex or Str based skill into a skill based on something else, then ACP does not apply.


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I would have to disagree with that. Whether the ACP applies to a skill is defined in the skill description itself, with no indication anywhere that changing the ability score that modifies skill rolls would turn ACP on or off. It just happens that every skill initially based on a physical ability score applies the ACP and every skill initially based on a mental ability score does not apply it.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

So in your interpretation, the phrase "this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building" overrides the phrase "at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score."

That's a valid way of reading it too, and does make some measure of versimilitude sense.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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You are making a check that is normally applying ACP. It is normally a Dex ability. For you it's Int. You still need to apply it, as the check is an Int based check now but it's still a check that normally applies ACP.

Grand Lodge

Specifically an Empiricist Investigator can use Int for Disable Device. At this point it's now an int-based skill. That's what brought about the question.

David knott 242 wrote:

I would have to disagree with that. Whether the ACP applies to a skill is defined in the skill description itself, with no indication anywhere that changing the ability score that modifies skill rolls would turn ACP on or off. It just happens that every skill initially based on a physical ability score applies the ACP and every skill initially based on a mental ability score does not apply it.

If that's your only reason for disagreeing, then I'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. The CRB is very good at "summarizing" rules other than where they're defined.

For instance.. Intimidate says "A half-orc gets a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks". So if I take an alternate racial trait that swaps out Intimidating, does that mean that I still get +2 to Intimidate because the skill says so?

Slimgauge very clearly pointed the rule (that the summary is being restated from) that states that ACP is for dex/str-based skills. This is an open discussion, but these are the reasons I brought the question up in the first place.


no, half-orcs always have a +2 and Intimidate is another +2, half-orcs are SCARY ;)


claudekennilol wrote:
Specifically an Empiricist Investigator can use Int for Disable Device. At this point it's now an int-based skill.

Is it? Or is it still a dex-based skill that you can use your int modifier on? I could see a DM ruling either way on that one.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It would be by my RAW an Int skill that applies ACP:


Regarding Half-Orc intimidation: It seems the RAI is that it should be the same bonus, but the RAW does not state that thus it appears that Half-Orcs actually get a +4 bonus to intimidate. Odd.

Regarding ACP:

ACG p100 wrote:
At 2nd level, an empiricist uses his Intelligence modifier instead of the skill’s normal key ability for all Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks.

No statement that it removes the ACP of skills with it.

CRB p87 wrote:
Armor Check Penalty: If this notation is included in the skill name line, an armor check penalty applies (see Chapter 6) to checks using this skill. If this entry is absent, an armor check penalty does not apply.

Disable Device has the notation.

CRB p87 wrote:
Armor check penalty applies to all Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks.

What the second statement does not have is a statement that it ONLY applies to Strength and Dexterity based skill checks.

The problem is, we don't know that substituting another ability score *should* have the effect of also removing the ACP. I am pretty sure that the RAI is that it shouldn't since that would be a jump up in power.

Since the second quote does not actually state that only Strength/Dexterity skill checks have ACP I would go and that swapping out Dex for Int doesn't mean the RAI is to also drop the ACP I would state that yes, the ACP still applies.


At the time of check it becomes an INT based skill per the FAQ. Until the check it remains a DEX skill, I believe, per the FAQ.


It is absolutely an INT skill. That does not remove the ACP since there is no rule that states it does.


I wonder if there are any flips to/from Int/Dex/Cha skills to/from Str/Wis (LOL Con) based ones that would be impacted by Rage or similar abilities if you ruled one way or the other. It would be weird to have certain skills made available or unavailable just because you changed where the bonus came from.

Grand Lodge

Gauss wrote:
Regarding Half-Orc intimidation: It seems the RAI is that it should be the same bonus, but the RAW does not state that thus it appears that Half-Orcs actually get a +4 bonus to intimidate. Odd.

So because both Craft and Profession (in addition to the gnomes racial trait itself) say "Special: A gnome gets a +2 bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of her choice." then a gnome ends up getting a +6 overall? Or only +4 if they take an alternate racial trait that trades away Obsessive?

Or Elves get a +4 to perception check? Or Creatures with scent get +16 to smell via perception, or with tremorsense a +16 vs those touching the ground? A spellcaster with a hawk familiar gets a +6?

I really don't see how these ridiculous statements are any different than what Slimguage already pointed out.


In this case, though, the rules themselves contradict each other: in one place they say the armor check penalty depends on the ability score a skill is based on, in another they say it depends on the specific skill itself.

I posted an FAQ request on this exact question a while back. If you're interested in getting some sort of clarification on this, I invite you to click the FAQ button on that post.

Grand Lodge

Avoron wrote:

In this case, though, the rules themselves contradict each other: in one place they say the armor check penalty depends on the ability score a skill is based on, in another they say it depends on the specific skill itself.

I posted an FAQ request on this exact question a while back. If you're interested in getting some sort of clarification on this, I invite you to click the FAQ button on that post.

Thanks. That's basically exactly my question.


The rules don't contradict each other.

The first states that any skill with a certain notation has an ACP.
The second states that skills that are STR or DEX based have an ACP.

The second does not state that ONLY skills that are STR or DEX based have an ACP and thus the second does not contradict the first.

What we have is ultimately:
Any skill which is STR or DEX based or has a notation in the text has an ACP.

While a DEX to INT ability does change it so the second no longer applies the first is still in force.

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