Basically, can you create a Metamagic staff, instead of a rod? If yes, how would it be priced?
If no, why not?
If you want to use it with the rules of normal metamagic rods, I'd price it as the price of the rod, x1.5 if the staff is already a magic item, or normal price if it doesn't, per normal custom magic item rules (because the Staff uses the same slot than the Rod. I would price higher if you try to build, say, gloves of metamagic, even if it is the only enchant in the gloves)
But there is also another possibility, which is this one, which might be useful to you:
You can certainly build in metamagic feats into a staff spell. At least one, Staff of Power, or Staff of the Magi has Heightened Fireball built into it. You would simply price it by the adjusted level of the spell.
Technically the answer is no, because there are no rules for allowing it. It would fall under the auspices of custom magic items, which (while we have guidelines) fall firmly under each individual GMs control.
If you're just wanting a metamagic staff instead of a metamagic rod...I don't see anything that is inherently a problem. However, the devil is often in the details.
Can you explain why you're wanting to do this?
@Drahliana, I don't think they're wanting to make a staff with metamagic spells in it. I think they're wanting the effect of a metamagic rod, but instead of it being a rod that it is instead a staff, which could be used as a weapon.
Technically the answer is no, because there are no rules for allowing it. It would fall under the auspices of custom magic items, which (while we have guidelines) fall firmly under each individual GMs control.
If you're just wanting a metamagic staff instead of a metamagic rod...I don't see anything that is inherently a problem. However, the devil is often in the details.
Can you explain why you're wanting to do this?
@Drahliana, I don't think they're wanting to make a staff with metamagic spells in it. I think they're wanting the effect of a metamagic rod, but instead of it being a rod that it is instead a staff, which could be used as a weapon.
Pretty sure that it's because he plays a staff magus.
Pretty sure that it's because he plays a staff magus.Technically the answer is no, because there are no rules for allowing it. It would fall under the auspices of custom magic items, which (while we have guidelines) fall firmly under each individual GMs control.
If you're just wanting a metamagic staff instead of a metamagic rod...I don't see anything that is inherently a problem. However, the devil is often in the details.
Can you explain why you're wanting to do this?
@Drahliana, I don't think they're wanting to make a staff with metamagic spells in it. I think they're wanting the effect of a metamagic rod, but instead of it being a rod that it is instead a staff, which could be used as a weapon.
I was thinking about that, and it's literally the one and only case I could think of that I wouldn't allow it for.
My player wanted to know if he could add a single Metamagic feat to his arcane-bonded staff? His thought was if he could do that, and then take a couple Metamagic feats himself, he could avoid the need for a rod, and thus avoid having both hands full.
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I wanted to make sure if was allowed under the rules first. After that, I just wasn't sure how it would be priced.
If you want to use it with the rules of normal metamagic rods, I'd price it as the price of the rod, x1.5 if the staff is already a magic item, or normal price if it doesn't, per normal custom magic item rules (because the Staff uses the same slot than the Rod. I would price higher if you try to build, say, gloves of metamagic, even if it is the only enchant in the gloves)
But there is also another possibility, which is this one, which might be useful to you:
That staff has been errata'd to oblivion with a lot of the other "OP" items with this Ultimate Equipment Publishing Errata Document. It only works with the spells on the staff now if I remember correctly.
My player wanted to know if he could add a single Metamagic feat to his arcane-bonded staff? His thought was if he could do that, and then take a couple Metamagic feats himself, he could avoid the need for a rod, and thus avoid having both hands full.
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I wanted to make sure if was allowed under the rules first. After that, I just wasn't sure how it would be priced.
That was the reason I thought of -- since you've presumable always got your staff "in hand," you can save an action to drag the rod out of your backpack.
That's actually rather powerful, so I'd start by thinking hard about whether I wanted that capacity in the specific game I was dealing with. If so, I'd use double-the-price as a starting point (equivalent to an ioun stone of Persistent Spell).
Oh, and the character is just a wizard, not a Magus - the staff just fits the character concept. He intends to avoid combat S much as possible.
My player wanted to know if he could add a single Metamagic feat to his arcane-bonded staff? His thought was if he could do that, and then take a couple Metamagic feats himself, he could avoid the need for a rod, and thus avoid having both hands full.
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I wanted to make sure if was allowed under the rules first. After that, I just wasn't sure how it would be priced.
I would allow it, if it were in my game. It's under the umbrella of custom magic items, which have rules, but are explicitly guidelines because it's possible to bend those rules to gain really unfair adventages (like quivers with True Strike on use, incredibly cheap pendants of Shield which give you +4 armor always, and other non-senses). So the Devs explicitly mention that it's just a guideline, to empower (more) the ability of the GM to disallow it
In this case, I don't find it especially problematic. Some other GMs maybe would, but if you are the GM and you don't find it problematic either, I'd use the custom magic item rules.
Magic items cost x1.5 of the (lower) cost, if they are added to an existing magic item. So a Cloak of Elvenkind of Resistance +1 would cost 2500 (elven) +1500 (1000x1.5 for Resistance +1). You can use this guidelines if you try to move an item from a slot to another slot (like gloves of strength instead of belt of strength, because it allows you to add gloves of strength with belt of constitution).
In this case, I don't think it's a problem, because Staffs and wands use the same slot ("held in hand"). Unless it's a explicitly low magic campaign, I'd go with Rod price x1.5, if the staff is already magic, or normal price if not. Your player could have a Rod as his bonded item, and he's not gaining anything from it.
My player wanted to know if he could add a single Metamagic feat to his arcane-bonded staff? His thought was if he could do that, and then take a couple Metamagic feats himself, he could avoid the need for a rod, and thus avoid having both hands full.
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I wanted to make sure if was allowed under the rules first. After that, I just wasn't sure how it would be priced.
As far as simply taking the effects of a Metamagic Rod and converting it into a staff, I don't personally see an issue other than conflicting mechanics. Staves almost always require a spell of some sort (usually two minimum), and charges to maintain it, whereas Rods don't have any of that sort of thing.
I mean, you could try to combine the two into a single item, but I imagine it would fall under the rules regarding combining magic item effects. Needless to say, it requires GM FIAT (which it appears you are the GM), and it gets expensive, fast, though there are a couple low level (and low cost) staves that can be pretty useful and manageable within the spell cost.
Metamagic Rods still require a hand for use, and the same goes for a Staff. If anything, a Staff can be argued to require two hands (though I don't see why a character needs two hands to use a Staff's spells or other abilities, though if he wants to attack with it, he'd need two hands), and Wands usually offer better consistency options without all that excess money requirement, so it's a down-grade either way.
My player wanted to know if he could add a single Metamagic feat to his arcane-bonded staff? His thought was if he could do that, and then take a couple Metamagic feats himself, he could avoid the need for a rod, and thus avoid having both hands full.
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I wanted to make sure if was allowed under the rules first. After that, I just wasn't sure how it would be priced.
That was the reason I thought of -- since you've presumable always got your staff "in hand," you can save an action to drag the rod out of your backpack.
That's actually rather powerful, so I'd start by thinking hard about whether I wanted that capacity in the specific game I was dealing with. If so, I'd use double-the-price as a starting point (equivalent to an ioun stone of Persistent Spell).
He could use a rod as his arcane bond item, and have it always on hand. I don't see the problem, honestly, other than the character wants to look like a wizard with a staff, instead of a wizard with a rod.
x2 is the custom price of items that are slotless by the guidelines, like the ioun stone, or something you have in your pocket, such as a luck stone. It doesn't require a hand, you could use your ioun stone while you hold things in your hands, like a shield. The custom price for items added into another magic item (such as a rod of silence that is also a rod of empower) is the price of the second item, x1.5, by the guidelines.
Since bonded items that are held are usually a really terrible option I would work with the player on this.
It normally makes it difficult though not technically impossible to use metamagic rods, since one hand would normally hold the arcane bonded item, one hand holds, the rod, and yet another hand would normally be needed to provide somatic and manipulate material components. (Most) Wizards don't have enough hands for that, and it's a serious drawback. It's part of why most players don't ever take a bond that requires it to be held. Most people go for rings or amulets. Now technically you can cast spells without the item held, but for low level characters it's just very unlikely to happen.
Since it's a concentration check of 20+ spell level versus 1d20+caster level you don't have much of a chance of making it till at least 10th level.
So yeah, I'd work with the player on this.
I would probably do 1.5 times the cost of the whatever type of metamagic rod he wanted to place onto the staff.
The bonded staff is non-negotiable. He understands there will be some risk, but he also knows I'm not the type of GM to be an a** about it.
My player wanted to know if he could add a single Metamagic feat to his arcane-bonded staff? His thought was if he could do that, and then take a couple Metamagic feats himself, he could avoid the need for a rod, and thus avoid having both hands full.
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I wanted to make sure if was allowed under the rules first. After that, I just wasn't sure how it would be priced.
As far as simply taking the effects of a Metamagic Rod and converting it into a staff, I don't personally see an issue other than conflicting mechanics. Staves almost always require a spell of some sort (usually two minimum), and charges to maintain it, whereas Rods don't have any of that sort of thing.
I mean, you could try to combine the two into a single item, but I imagine it would fall under the rules regarding combining magic item effects. Needless to say, it requires GM FIAT (which it appears you are the GM), and it gets expensive, fast, though there are a couple low level (and low cost) staves that can be pretty useful and manageable within the spell cost.
Metamagic Rods still require a hand for use, and the same goes for a Staff. If anything, a Staff can be argued to require two hands (though I don't see why a character needs two hands to use a Staff's spells or other abilities, though if he wants to attack with it, he'd need two hands), and Wands usually offer better consistency options without all that excess money requirement, so it's a down-grade either way.
One of the most important posessions of my PFS magus was the Thassilonian face mask which functioned as a limited lesser metamagic rod of empower.
The bonded staff is non-negotiable. He understands there will be some risk, but he also knows I'm not the type of GM to be an a** about it.
If it's a requirement for the campaign (ie: in your world, wizards have staffs), then I'd double down in my suggestion. Let him build it as a rod of metamagic, for the normal cost, if the staff doesn't have any other magic ability. He's already paying for that aspect of your world, as wizards can't use metamagic rods by default in such world
@Synjon: I'm with those who are recommending a 1.5x price (i.e. crafting it at 75% of the value if he takes the Craft Rod feat, which he absolutely should even if the effect is being put into a staff). That's basically the standard price for adding an additional ability, after all, and they're both "held" items so there's no real issue there.
Wizards don't need to take the feat to craft their own arcane bond item.
They would not be able to do such thing, because that's a custom item, and therefore it needs explicit GM permision.
I'd let the wizard to have a rod of metamagic extend, if he so wishes, without any extra cost. I might even let him combine more than 1 rod, paying 1.5x each, because he's not trying to gain advantage, he's only asking to get back something that the standard rule assumption gives him, but he has sacrificed because of the campaign lore/flavor. He's also not trying to set up some weird combo using metaphysical hands to reload guns or whatever, he's just asking to use a wooden stick as a slightly shorter wooden stick. Again, in a conventional world, he could just take a rod as his arcane bond item, so what he is asking for is not "unbalanced" in the sense that it goes against what Devs feel is the proper level of power for a wizard. He's not even asking to combine a magical staff with a magical rod, just having a magical rod
I would not let him to use his staff as a ring of protection +5 and a cloak of displacement and a wand of mage armor, because that's an attempt to shortcut feats. But in the case the OP has presented, I'd give him the regular cost for the rod, if I were the GM
1 )My group isn't big on min/max'ing or exploiting rules - they care more about flavor & having fun. So I try to be reasonable when they make a request. Not that they always get what they want...
2) Technically, it's a cane. We like to have pictures of out characters - the picture he chose has a cane. He gave serious consideration to a ring, but the cane won.
3) His main concern is not having a free hand to cast with if he's holding both his staff & a metamagic rod, forcing him to take Still Spell.
4) We've discussed (and I'll probably allow) him putting some other enhancements/spells on the staff, as long as it doesn't get carried away - including, perhaps a +1 weapon enhancement (which should also increase durability, if I understand correctly). The weapon enhancement would probably come first, so I'm not sure how that changes the pricing - if he were just putting the metamagic feat on the staff, the 1.5x price several folks have recommended seems fair. I believe it gets modified further if the item is already magical - or does being an arcane bond already cover that?
Thank you all very much for the input so far, you've been very helpful!
Well, it's less "fair" and more "the actual price". XD
Fair enough ;)
Magic items cost x1.5 of the (lower) cost, if they are added to an existing magic item. So a Cloak of Elvenkind of Resistance +1 would cost 2500 (elven) +1500 (1000x1.5 for Resistance +1).
The price to add magic is NOT 1.5*lesser price. It is 1.5*LATER price. The tables are incorrect. The text is correct. That the text takes precedence is mentioned by at least 3 FAQs, and no FAQ goes the other way.
If I add Elvenkind to Resistance +1, the crafting cost is 500 + 1250*1.5 (=2375), not 500*1.5 + 1250 (=2000). Price, however is the same (=4000), because you can buy one crafted by the most efficient process.
In 3.X, the text describing metamagic rods mentioned that they modified somatic components to incorporate the rod, thus they did not need an extra free hand. I don't see that in PF, but I didn't look very hard.
The arcane bond allows any crafting feat that is required. Some staves also use Craft Arms and Armor because they are also weapons. It the item can be done as a staff, then its crafting feat is supplied for the bonded staff. Weapons also can have multiple craft feats used, and so can other stuff. Basically, if the magic is suitable for bonded item, you get the craft feat(s) needed to make it.
There is already a weapon with Eschew Materials: Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents
There may be others.
/cevah