Hey!
So, I want to sort this out before it comes up in my game. I have a player who will be gaining the ability to fly shortly and has stated that he wants to fly up and then, essentially, dive bomb/body slam/land on the enemies as a means of dealing damage. I told him that would also deal damage to him considering he's slamming himself into the ground/enemy as well. This is a big one, so thanks in advance!
Here's what I imagine his reasoning is:
Soften Falls
When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, you can attempt a DC 15 Acrobatics check to ignore the first 10 feet fallen. You still end up prone if you take damage from the fall. - Source PRD
Falling
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
Falls onto yielding surfaces (soft ground, mud) also convert the first 1d6 of damage to nonlethal damage. This reduction is cumulative with reduced damage due to deliberate jumps and the Acrobatics skill. -Source PRD
And then to use the falling object damage list to deal 4d6 points of damage (since he's usually under Enlarge Person].
I want to clarify how to approach this tactic. For example, the player's plan is to fly up 30 feet and then deliberately fall onto an enemy and deal 4d6 points of damage. At that point, he'd be taking 3d6 (1d6 per 10 feet), but the first d6 would be non-lethal and if he succeeded his Acrobatics check the second d6 would be negated, so he'd only be taking 1d6 points of damage. At that point, I assume the enemies, so long as they're not flat-footed, would get a Reflex save as per dropping an item on an enemy does.
My problem lies in a few details. First, in order to land on an enemy in such a way that would deal damage, you'd have to enter their threatened space. If they're aware of you, would they get an attack of opportunity on the falling creature? Second, since you're entering a character's square should an Acrobatic check be made similar to tumbling (5 + enemy's CMD) to see if you can even enter into it. Third, again, to land on an enemy, you would have to end your turn on their square, which you can't do.
What do the experts think?
I don't know if I am expert, but I will give my opinion based on my GMing experience.
I would not bother with attacks of opportunity (AoO) since falling occurs much faster than the normal movement speed that AoO were written for. Again ignore rules about entering an enemy's square and about ending your turn on their square.
If the character is just flying above a creature and blindly falling into them, then the two of them are likely to end up prone and in the same square (like how you can be in the same square when you grapple).
If you character wants to perform a proper dive-bomb like a bird then they may want to looking into the Flyby Attack feat.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
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It sounds to me like you have it all pretty well thought out. My specific responses:
First, in order to land on an enemy in such a way that would deal damage, you'd have to enter their threatened space. If they're aware of you, would they get an attack of opportunity on the falling creature?
Yes. Nothing in the rules says Attacks of Opportunity are only triggered by movement on the 2D map grid. If your player wants to "Death from Above" an enemy, that enemy gets an AoO when the PC falls through the threatened 5' square (cube) above the enemy.
Second, since you're entering a character's square should an Acrobatic check be made similar to tumbling (5 + enemy's CMD) to see if you can even enter into it.
There's not really anything to cover this in the rules. The Acrobatics check to enter an enemy's square rule was written for voluntarily moving into such a square under the PC's own power. In this example, the PC is moving into the square due to gravity. Rather than an Acrobatics check, I think it's more appropriate to use the rest of the rules for hitting someone with a dropped object
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack.
So, your PC will need to make a ranged touch attack against the target. Since he/she isn't proficient with using his/her body as a weapon, and said body isn't designed to BE a weapon, the -4 improvised weapon penalty seems appropriate. And, since it's an improvised "thrown weapon", the range increment is only 10', so that's another -6 attack penalty. (And the target STILL gets to try the Reflex save to only take half damage.)
Third, again, to land on an enemy, you would have to end your turn on their square, which you can't do.
Not necessarily. Such a collision (IRL) is going to cause both parties to move in unpredictable directions. (Though, IRL it would be possible for the "falling" party to finish the move atop the "target", with both prone.) With no RAW to cover this, you'll have to make something up. I would suggest using Acrobatics checks and Reflex saves along with the thrown weapon scatter diagram to determine where the characters end up. Maybe something like the following:
1. Acrobatics check (DC 20+; your call) to allow the PC to choose which square he lands in adjacent to the target. Failure means you roll randomly on the scatter diagram.
2. Reflex save (DC 20+; your call) to remain standing after the "attack." Failure indicates the PC falls prone in whichever square he ends in.
3. Reflex save (DC 20+; your call) for the target to remain standing after the attack. On a successful save, the target remains standing in its square. On a failure, it falls prone in a random square determined by rolling on the scatter diagram.
Personally, I think it's a terrible tactic. From a realism standpoint, falling 30' onto anything other than water is likely to result in death (and hitting water is likely to cause significant injuries). Jumping from that height does lessen the chance of injury. If you land on another person, you're both going to suffer serious injury or death. (200# falling is going to hit the target with about 6,500 lbs of force.) So, the PC will suffer an Attack of Opportunity, 1d6 lethal damage, 1d6 nonlethal damage, have a -10 penalty to even hit the target, then has a chance of ending up prone beside the target. All for a maximum of 24 points of damage? (12 max if the target has a decent Reflex save.) I'd think it would be better to fly to that height and use a bow...but I fully support any player's desire to play a character their way.
Just my two copper's worth:
The easiest way to adjudicate it might be to treat it like a bullrush, but one that deals damage as per the falling rules vs the normal move the opponent result.
If landing on top of the opponent, I can see both characters ending up prone in the same square after a successful attack. But that could be situational too.
Absolutely do believe the defender should get an attack of opportunity if it would have incurred the AoO normally otherwise--as if both were on the ground.
This dive bomb attack also opens up the potential for weapons with the brace property. Your PC could be impaling himself on these. {One could even make a case that any piercing weapon that connected with his flesh on the way in from the defender might have a percentage chance to become self-braced against the ground--but that would have to be house ruled.}
I can see a PC (like maybe a grippli with the glider trait) wanting to jump on monsters (or from monster to monster) like Toad in the x-men movies. I would treat it as an overrun attempt and let overrun feats apply. Additionally for every 10' they want to move vertically I'd let them add 1d6 points of extra damage to the attack and they would also take an extra 1d6 (hit or miss). With a feat they could make it "vicious" the target takes 2d6 they take 1d6 (still hit or miss) with some sort of limit (based on their BAB or fly check or something) or just let them do the 1d6 to the target for each 1d6 they take plus an extra 1d6 from the feat and they can take the feat multiple times. If they don't like taking the damage even on a miss - point out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/death-from-above-combat to make sure they hit more.
Thanks for all the well thought out responses, friends! I'm going to have to go through them all properly and mark down the most effective and propose it to my player so he can plan in advance.
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If he deliberately falls so as to limit his damage (making an Acrobatics check), I'd probably reduce the damage to the creature the same amount, since he's deliberately trying to minimize the impact.
He may also want to look into the 'Death From Above' feat from Ultimate Combat, which gives to-hit bonuses when plummeting at enemies during a Charge.
So, here's what I think my official ruling is going to be. It's kind of a mish-mash of various rules and previous suggestions, but I think it makes the most logistical sense. I'm open to suggestions.
Dropping Onto An Enemy:
This movement acts as a charge action. It's a full-round action and obtains all the bonuses and penalties that a charge gives (-2 AC, +2 attack roll) and allow targets to brace against the attack. The character must succeed a touch attack (not ranged as normal dropping rules, because the character is the weapon and therefore making contact with the enemy). The body will be treated as in improvised weapon, so a -4 penalty will be added to the attack roll. Since the character will be free falling, range penalties will be added for improvised weapons (which is 10 feet) and will take a -2 to attack rolls per every 10 feet beyond the first 10. The target gets an attack of opportunity for the charger entering his threatened space.
If the hit is successful, the target will take half of the damage dice for that size category (most likely large in this case, which is 4d6, so it will be 2d6) as per the rules of dropping objects of lesser density. The charger will then be able to roll acrobatics in order to soften the landing with a DC of 20 (DC 15 as per the acrobatics rule + 5 for landing in a severely obstructed space) in order to further reduce damage and remain standing in an adjacent square of their choosing. If the charger fails the acrobatic roll, he falls prone in a random square adjacent to his target and takes full fall damage. The target gets to attempt a DC 15 Reflex save in order to halve the damage.
Thoughts on this monster of a ruling? Did I miss anything? Anything seem unfair or exploitable?
I will support players attempting Super Mario builds.
The real question is what happens when players decide that running an enemy through with a weapon while executing this maneuver.
Just a thought, if the player misses you might want to use the rules for spash damage to determine where the player actually lands.
There's a feat covering this Branch Pounce. So if he's doing it without the feat it should be worse than doing it with the feat if you want to allow the feat in your game. Otherwise you can just say that everyone can have that feat for free and he just uses the feat's rules.
The DC to remain standing seems a bit low given they are basically pile driving into the opponent like an NFL linebacker. The DC 20 so far is good, but maybe consider adding the 'severely unsteady (earthquake) +10' from the chart as well. Could also be a certain damage level triggers the added DC (the harder the hit, the higher the DC maybe). This would also give the player something to work towards to remain standing.
Might also be good to define what size of opponent or size difference between characters renders this tactic ineffective.
Does the target remain standing or is he/she knocked prone? (it specified the attacker could end up prone, but didn't see notation for the target)
Basically, this is a flying charge (+2 attack bonus, -2 AC penalty) from higher ground (+1 attack bonus). From the description, using an unarmed attack.
If the player wants to be better at it, then there is the Death from Above feat. If the player wants to do more damage and knock them down, there is the Felling Smash feat.
If boots of the cat cause minimum fall damage to the faller, should they cause minimum fall damage to whoever you're landing on too?
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I don't think boots of the cat do any less damage to the guy you're landing on. And they help you land on your feet.
However, when you land on someone, are you a "soft" object? With the cat boots, probably. When wearing your dwarven ironshod boots of hippy stomping? Probably not.
As for proficiency, I'd say jumping on people should be considered an unarmed strike, usually a kick.
Since it's going against touch AC, it's not a very hard attack to hit with - however, you do less damage if you jump from less than 30ft, so that gives you an incentive to increase the range and rack up the penalties. I do support the 10ft range increments, although in this case I wouldn't use the 5x max range increment for thrown weapons. After all, that limit is based on gravity being against you, not with you.
However, when you land on someone, are you a "soft" object? With the cat boots, probably. When wearing your dwarven ironshod boots of hippy stomping? Probably not.
Looks like a job for Stoneskin or something similar. Ensure that you're undoubtedly hard and heavy on impact.
Okay, with the raised points, I've made a few revisions. Changes are marked in bold.
This movement acts as a charge action. It's a full-round action and obtains all the bonuses and penalties that a charge gives (-2 AC, +2 attack roll) and allow targets to brace against the attack. The attacker also benefits from high ground (+1 to attack). The character must succeed a touch attack (not ranged as normal dropping rules, because the character is the weapon and therefore making contact with the enemy). The body will be treated as in improvised weapon, so a -4 penalty will be added to the attack roll. Since the character will be free falling, range penalties will be added for improvised weapons (which is 10 feet) and will take a -2 to attack rolls per every 10 feet beyond the first 10. The target gets an attack of opportunity for the charger entering his threatened space.
If the hit is successful, the target will take half of the damage dice for that size category (most likely large in this case, which is 4d6, so it will be 2d6) if the charger is the same size as the target as per the rules of dropping objects of lesser density. If the charger is larger than the target, full damage is done. Dropping on enemies larger than the charger has no effect.
The charger will then be able to roll acrobatics in order to soften the landing with a DC of 20 (DC 15 as per the acrobatics rule + 5 for landing in a severely obstructed space) in order to further reduce damage and remain standing in an adjacent square of their choosing. The acrobatics DC increases by 2 for every increment that the charger exceeds his natural base speed (ex. If fly speed is 30 and he drops for 40ft, the DC to remain standing and negate damage would be 22, if he drops from 60 the DC would be 24, etc). If the charger fails the acrobatic roll, he falls prone in a random square adjacent to his target and takes full fall damage.
The target gets to attempt a DC 15 Reflex save in order to halve the damage. As per the speed increments increasing the charger's acrobatics DC, so too does it increase the target's Reflex DC by 2 in the same manner. If the targets fails its Reflex save, it falls prone due to the impact of the landing.
Any magical effects, including items, that reduces to fall damage halves the amount d6 rolled as momentum is being sacrificed for safety.
So, here's my current predicament. The character in question is an alchemist and therefore has "Throw Anything" which negates the penalties of ranged improvised weapons. However, since he's technically not throwing anything, I feel as though this shouldn't apply, but RAW, it does. Hence why I have the charger making a touch attack, as opposed to a ranged touch attack. It makes sense since nothing is being thrown and the character is the weapon, that a touch would be needed in this case as opposed to a situation where a rock is dropped on something and hoping your aim was right with a ranged touch.
Alternatively, if the attack is considered an unarmed strike, the player would have to take Improved Unarmed Strike in order to deal lethal damage and to avoid another attack of opportunity (if the target has Combat Reflexes); one from attacking untrained with unarmed strikes and another for entering the threatened space.
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This seems like far more work than using the feat that already covers this.
This seems like far more work than using the feat that already covers this.
Agreed. Use branch pounce as a feat or make branch pounce a combat maneuver. IMHO a feat tax is a balance for this ability compared to letting everyone do it, but your campaign might support it. It definitely falls into the rule of cool. :)
Feel free to add bonus for large (Str is added for being Large, but see trample or weapon sizes).
But other things to consider:
trample, engulf, and similar abilities let the target choose a Reflex to reduce or an AoO. Damage from an AoO is applied as a penalty to the maneuver's attack),
If this overshadows any of these abilities, it may effectively limit the choices of other players.
One other note, how is the character flying? In most cases a flying character is making a charge action because the flying is still in effect. This is especially true of the fly spell:
...the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely.
Targeting a creature with reach will provoke AoO as the falling person leaves a threatened square.
Brandt, I agree this is not a throwing attack and the Throw Anything feat refers to throwing things not yourself. lol.
Would also agree this is an unarmed strike. Regardless of attacking from the ground or as a divebomb, AoO's are the risk one takes vs. opponents with combat reflexes.
Good luck. Hope you, the player, and the party enjoy it. Do post to let us know how it goes and if you end up having to tweak it.
Hello,
can a character flying do the same thing as the branch pounce feat without this feat if the character is the free fall and don't fly ?
Avoid Falling After Collision
If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
If the character success the fly check, can he/she avoid the falling damage in the case of the attack from the branch pounce feat ?
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I used this strategy in a game once and honestly you might recommend it to your player. It may not be quite as cool thematically, but it's still effective, and far safer than trying to become the falling object to deal damage. Fly your opponent up (Should be a maintained grapple, with the move action) then when you are high enough, Free action release, followed by Charge attack flying down. And if you can, combine the charge with a Pounce/Pummeling Charge!
I also recommend using the feat rules, they are pretty clear with a decent benefit. If you want to apply a feat penalty give a -8 to hit to whomever attempts it without the feat and rule they always land prone.
My biggest issue with your current rules is the penalty to hit is excessive and the bonus damage is lacking, the design mentality suggests you don't actually anyone to attempt this maneuver.