Hybrid paladin (stonelord) and druid (menhir savant)


Homebrew and House Rules


One of my players would like to play a hybrid class made from the paladin (stonelord archetype) and druid (menhir savant archetype). Can anyone offer suggestions as to what a balanced version of this class would look like? He is keen to retain what he sees as the key elemets of each class - the stonelord's defensive stance, and some of the druid's spellcasting.


Callum wrote:
One of my players would like to play a hybrid class made from the paladin (stonelord archetype) and druid (menhir savant archetype). Can anyone offer suggestions as to what a balanced version of this class would look like? He is keen to retain what he sees as the key elemets of each class - the stonelord's defensive stance, and some of the druid's spellcasting.

Have you considered just using the Stalwart Defender prestige class for the defensive stance?


The Sideromancer wrote:
Have you considered just using the Stalwart Defender prestige class for the defensive stance?

Do you mean just starting off as a druid and then taking stalwart defender as a prestige class? That's an interesting idea - the trouble is that a druid would have to be 10th level before qualifying for stalwart defender.

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is this for an already running game or a new one? if you're talking about running a new game you could try out the gestalt option (in a nutshell: everyone picks two classes and gets the best of each)... its definitely a higher powered option (the whole party has to do it to be balanced, and you have to raise the difficulty of the enemies), but it would let him get exactly what he's looking for and would let the other players experiment with hybrids as well.

if that's not an option (or not one you're interested in), you could try to homebrew something... a simple solution might be to start with the menhir savant and just replace nature bond with stone strike and wild shape with the stonelord version of defensive stance. That should be fairly balanced still and doesn't require trying to come up with a whole new class? If you really want a whole new class say so and if I have some down time this afternoon I may try to put one together.


nate lange wrote:

is this for an already running game or a new one? if you're talking about running a new game you could try out the gestalt option (in a nutshell: everyone picks two classes and gets the best of each)... its definitely a higher powered option (the whole party has to do it to be balanced, and you have to raise the difficulty of the enemies), but it would let him get exactly what he's looking for and would let the other players experiment with hybrids as well.

if that's not an option (or not one you're interested in), you could try to homebrew something... a simple solution might be to start with the menhir savant and just replace nature bond with stone strike and wild shape with the stonelord version of defensive stance. That should be fairly balanced still and doesn't require trying to come up with a whole new class? If you really want a whole new class say so and if I have some down time this afternoon I may try to put one together.

Thanks for your reply! It is for a game that's already running, so going gestalt isn't an option. What we're looking for really is a hybrid, with appropriate level progression, taking abilities from the two classes as needed for a balanced hybrid class. I'll take a look at your suggestion when I have a bit more time - but if you do have the chance to work up a more detailed class, that would be great. Thanks again!


nate lange wrote:

is this for an already running game or a new one? if you're talking about running a new game you could try out the gestalt option (in a nutshell: everyone picks two classes and gets the best of each)... its definitely a higher powered option (the whole party has to do it to be balanced, and you have to raise the difficulty of the enemies), but it would let him get exactly what he's looking for and would let the other players experiment with hybrids as well.

if that's not an option (or not one you're interested in), you could try to homebrew something... a simple solution might be to start with the menhir savant and just replace nature bond with stone strike and wild shape with the stonelord version of defensive stance. That should be fairly balanced still and doesn't require trying to come up with a whole new class? If you really want a whole new class say so and if I have some down time this afternoon I may try to put one together.

If you think about it...a Paladin/Druid gestalt isn't doable.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Lol- I did forget that druids still have to be at least part neutral, so pally/druid gestalt would not have been an option anyways. bush league mistake.

My window for downtime this afternoon has closed already but I'll see if I can find some time tonight. A hybrid between a spell-less paladin and a druid would probably end up most similar to a warpriest (3/4 BAB, 6 level caster...)

By "hybrid" do you mean a blending of the two classes or do you mean it like the paizo 'hybrid classes' where they're more inspired by the parent classes but have their own abilities?


Just a blend of the two classes would be great - no need to go creating new abilities.

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You know, the more I think about it the more a druid archetype seems like the way to go. Dropping a hybrid down to a 6 level caster (which would be the only way to do it as a hybrid class instead of an archetype) means having to introduce an ability to boost hit/damage (like arcane pool, sacred weapon, or studied combat)- neither parent class/archetype has that, so now you're talking about inventing new mechanics... you can't even adapt the weapon version of divine bond because stonelord trades it away.

I'd suggest using the changes I mentioned above, requiring they be either lawful-neutral or neutral-good (not giving the player the choice but you picking one of the two based on the feel you want it to have), and setting a specific code of conduct (that includes not wearing metal armor and some elements of the paladin code). Maybe call it "Stone Warden"?


nate lange wrote:
a simple solution might be to start with the menhir savant and just replace nature bond with stone strike and wild shape with the stonelord version of defensive stance. That should be fairly balanced still and doesn't require trying to come up with a whole new class?

Okay, the more I look at this idea, the more I like it. I presume you're intending that they would get the full, level-scaling version of stonestrike? How about defensive stance - would they also get the defensive powers at higher levels?

How about replacing nature bond with heartstone (instead of with stonestrike)? The AC bonus and DR might be more useful than the attack boost, especially given the druid's smaller HD (although the druid can cast barkskin, of course).

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I would give both of the abilities the same progression as the stonelord gets, yeah (including gaining defensive powers). It's your game- if you want to give him heartstone instead of stonestrike that's up to you. I think the offensive power of stonestrike is good for bringing in a little more of the full BAB feel of a paladin; I think it might be a little better balanced too (constant natural armor and DR is pretty potent).


nate lange wrote:
I would give both of the abilities the same progression as the stonelord gets, yeah (including gaining defensive powers). It's your game- if you want to give him heartstone instead of stonestrike that's up to you. I think the offensive power of stonestrike is good for bringing in a little more of the full BAB feel of a paladin; I think it might be a little better balanced too (constant natural armor and DR is pretty potent).

Yes, you're probably right. I was thinking of emphasising the defensive nature of the stonelord class - but it's probably better balanced and a better mix of the classes with stonestrike.

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If you wanted a heavily defensive caster there might be some design space for a 6 level caster hybrid class there... the biggest problem would probably be that you'd have trouble holding a creture's attention (instead of it avoiding you for targets that are both more dangerous and squishier)... I have kind of a busy weekend but if the ol' insomnia's bad maybe I'll revisit this.


A close second to this could just be the Enlightened Bloodrager.

"The enlightened bloodrager adds all 0-level spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to his bloodrager spell list. He also adds all druid spells of 4th level and lower (including 0-level spells). If a spell appears on both the bloodrager spell list and the druid spell list, the enlightened bloodrager uses the lower of the two spell levels listed for the spell. The bloodrager treats any druid spells he takes with this ability as bloodrager spells for the purposes of other abilities (such as greater bloodrage)."

He casts with the medium spell progression list, so he gets lvl 0 spells at lvl 1. Eventually gets to rage without any penalties. And gets bloodline powers later. So pick a nature-ish one. Plus, full BaB.


My player has come back with the following suggestion. Starting with menhir savant, make the following changes:


  • Heartstone replaces nature bond
  • Stone strike replaces place magic (which replaced woodland stride and trackless step)
  • Defensive stance and mobile defense replaces wild shape
  • Stoneblood replaces walk the lines
  • Stonebody replaces empty body (which replaced a thousand faces)
  • Martial weapon proficiency replaces natural weapon proficiency
  • Spontaneous casting based on a chosen domain replaces spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally spells

What's your view of this? Is it too strong?


I've been working on a paladin/druid class for over a year, but the base classes not those archetypes. Sort of a champion of nature that I named green knight. The concept feels very clear in my mind but I've had a lot of trouble with everything I have written.

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Sorry it took so long for me to notice this update (I've been spending lots of time in PbP boards and very little in advice or homebrew these days).

IMO, this is too powerful.

  • heartstone for nature bond is probably fair (it offers better survivability but you lose the extra action economy from a companion)
  • stone strike is clearly more powerful than place magic (not every trade has to be even but when its lopsided like this you need other trades lopsided in the other direction, and I don't see that here)
  • defensive stance/mobile defense is probably reasonable... i thought it was a fair trade without mobile defense but that's honestly a fairly small bump and it comes online late enough that I doubt it would unbalance anything
  • stone blood for walk the lines is where things start to get messy... does he want/expect the full progression? Its hard to quantify this kind of trade in the first place because you're getting rid of a useful non-combat/utility ability and replacing it with a constant effect combat buff, but I certainly wouldn't let him gain an ability at 3rd for giving up one at 9th... it might maybe work if he gained the 3rd level benefit at 9th and it improved to the 9th level version at 15th at the cost of timeless body? Even then you're still trading utility for combat power...
  • stonebody is a capstone ability- it 100% should not be available at 13th level. If he's asking to gain it at 20th instead of getting empty body at 13th that's more reasonable but very sloppy... and again, its giving up utility for more combat ability. If you want to try to fix rather than prohibit this I would strongly suggest vetoing this part.
  • martial weapons for natural weapons is another unbalanced trade. proficiency with his deity's chosen weapon would be much more reasonable.
  • spontaneous casting thing doesn't really make sense because he gave up nature bond so can't have a domain... if you want to try to fix this maybe just drop spontaneous casting with no benefit to help offset some of the other trades?

    I don't have the time right now to suggest any solid alternatives but I'll see if I can get to it this evening.


  • Might want to take it over to the Multiclass Archetypes thread.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    @Ciaran- I don't know exactly what you're going for with that hybrid but if you're having that much trouble getting it to come together maybe consider looking at druid/cavalier instead?

    @Callum- now that I've had a little more time to look at the proposal, he literally wants to trade away everything the menhir savant gets except spirit sense... so really we should just be looking at the base druid for our comparison. Your player clearly wants something more in depth than my initial proposal, so here's my attempt to fix his suggestion.

  • alignment/code: I still think you should choose either NG or LN as the required alignment and create a code for the class combining druid restrictions and paladin-esque behavior stuff appropriate for the alignment you picked.
  • spirit sense: if he has a good fluff reason for this let him keep it, otherwise I'd suggest detect evil (or chaos, if you picked LN) as the pally ability for the same trade as spirit sense.
  • nature bond: leave this but require he choose a domain from a short specific list, maybe something like 'community, earth, or protection' (this is the weaker version of nature bond for a melee focused archetype so it'll help pay for heartstone)
  • heartstone: it seems like he really wants this... I'd use the same progression as the stonelord and have it replace spontaneous casting, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, and a thousand faces. That's a long list but they're all relatively minor, mostly non-combat abilities and heartstone is a pretty potent combat buff.
  • defensive stance (and mobile defense): as stonelord (at same levels) in exchange for all wildshape abilities.
  • stoneblood: give him the 3rd level power at 9th and the 9th level version at 15th in exchange for venom immunity and timeless body.

    I know he wanted stonestrike too but I don't really see any way to include that and maintain balance... if you wanted to drop it to a 6 level caster class (like the hunter) you could probably give him stonestrike and give back a couple minor abilities for that change (defensive ones like resist nature's lure and venom immunity probably make the most thematic sense to return). Or maybe (with the 6 level casting) have stonestrike replace nature's bond and give back most of the cost of heartstone and stoneblood you could probably even give him heartstone in place the lost casting and let him give up some of that utility stuff to get the full progression of stoneblood and then stonebody at 20th.


  • Callum wrote:

    My player has come back with the following suggestion. Starting with menhir savant, make the following changes:


    • Heartstone replaces nature bond
    • Stone strike replaces place magic (which replaced woodland stride and trackless step)
    • Defensive stance and mobile defense replaces wild shape
    • Stoneblood replaces walk the lines
    • Stonebody replaces empty body (which replaced a thousand faces)
    • Martial weapon proficiency replaces natural weapon proficiency
    • Spontaneous casting based on a chosen domain replaces spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally spells

    What's your view of this? Is it too strong?

    How about this?

    DRUADIN (For lack of a better name):

    Alignment: Lawful good, neutral good, lawful neutral.
    Hit Dice: d8.
    Parent Classes: Druid (menhir savant) and Paladin (stonelord).
    Starting Wealth: 5d6 × 10 gp (average 175 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

    Class Skills
    The druadin's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

    Skill Ranks at Each Level: 4 + Int.

    Class Skills
    All of the following are class features of the druadin.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The druadin is proficient with all simple weapons and her deity’s favored weapon. She is also proficient with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).

    Spell Casting (Divine): A druadin casts divine spells drawn from the druid and paladin spell lists. Only druid spells of 6th level and lower and paladin spells are considered to be part of the druadin spell list. If a spell appears on both the druid and paladin spell lists, the druadin uses the lower of the two spell levels listed for the spell. For instance, lesser restoration is a 2nd-level druid spell and a 1st-level paladin spell, making it a 1st-level druadin spell. Likewise, dispel magic is a 4th-level druid spell and a 3rd-level ranger spell, making it a 3rd-level druadin spell. The druadin can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a druadin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a druadin's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the druadin's Wisdom modifier.

    A druadin cannot use spell completion or spell trigger magic items (without making a successful Use Magic Device check) of druid spells of 7th level or higher. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells below.
    To prepare or cast a spell, a druadin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC against a druadin's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the druadin's Wisdom modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a druadin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Druadin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.

    A druadin must spend 1 hour each day in a trance-like meditation on the mysteries of nature to regain her daily allotment of spells. A druadin may prepare and cast any spell on the druid or paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

    Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A druadin can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

    Domain: At 1st level, a druadin forms a close bond with the natural world, granting the druadin one of the following cleric domains: Earth, Protection, or Strength. Druadins also have access to a set of Terrain Domains. When determining the powers and bonus spells granted by this domain, the druadin's effective dleric level is equal to her druadin level. A druadin also receives additional domain spell slots, just like a cleric. She must prepare the spell from her domain in this slot and this spell cannot be used to cast a spell spontaneously.

    Orisons: Druadins can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Druadin. These spells are cast like any other spell, but are not expended when cast and can be used again.
    Spirit Sense (Sp): At 1st level, a druadin can detect the presence of undead; fey; outsiders; and astral, ethereal, or incorporeal creatures. This ability functions like detect undead, and the druadin detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind.

    Stonestrike (Su): Once per day per level, a druadin can draw upon the power of the living rock. As a swift action, she treats her melee attacks until the beginning of her next turn (whether armed or unarmed) as magical and adamantine, including ignoring hardness up to twice her druadin level, with a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as on combat maneuver checks. This bonus also applies to her CMD if she or her target is touching the ground or a stone structure. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

    Heartstone (Ex): At 2nd level, a druadin's flesh becomes progressively rockier. She gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC and DR/adamantine equal to 1/2 her druadin level. The natural armor bonus increases by +1 at 6th level, and every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. These benefits are halved when not touching the ground or a stone structure.

    Place Magic (Su): At 2nd level, a druadin learns to identify and tap into ley lines in different types of terrain. As a free action, she can tap into the magic of a nearby ley line and increase her caster level by +1 for 1 round. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Wisdom bonus.

    Stoneblood (Ex): At 3rd level, a druadin's vitals begin to calcify and her blood transforms into liquid stone. She adds her druadin level on checks to stabilize at negative hit points and gains a 25% chance to ignore a critical hit or precision damage. This does not stack with fortification armor or similar effects.
    At 9th level, this chance increases to 50% and she becomes immune to petrification.

    At 15th level, this chance increases to 75% and she becomes immune to bleed and blood drain effects.

    Defensive Stance (Ex): At 4th level, a druadin gains the defensive stance ability, as a stalwart defender, and may select one defensive power at 8th level and every four levels thereafter. Levels of stalwart defender stack with her druadin levels when determining the total number of rounds that she can maintain her defensive stance per day. A druadin does not gain any spells or spellcasting abilities, does not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger or spell completion magic items.

    Stone Servant (Su): At 5th level, a druadin may call a Small earth elemental to her side, as a paladin calls her mount. This earth elemental is of the same alignment as the druadin, and it increases in size as the druadin gains levels, becoming Medium at 8th level, Large at 11th level, Huge at 14th level, Greater at 17th level, and Elder at 20th level. It also gains either the celestial template (lawful good, neutral good) or the resolute template (lawful good or lawful neutral), according to the druadin’s alignment.

    Earth Form (Sp): At 7th level, a druadin gains the ability to turn herself into any Small elemental and back again once per day. This ability functions like the elemental body I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druadin level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to elemental or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an earth elemental the druadin is familiar with.
    A druadin can use this ability an additional time per day at 11th level and 19th level. As a druadin gains in levels, this ability allows the druadin to take on the form of larger elementals. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.

    At 9th level, a druadin can use earth form to change into a Medium elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druadin's earth form now functions as elemental body II.

    At 11th level, a druadin can use earth form to change into a Large elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druadin's earth form now functions as elemental body III.

    At 13th level, a druadin can use earth form to change into a Huge elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druadin's earth form now functions as elemental body IV.

    Stonebane (Su): At 11th level, when using stonestrike, a druadin's attack gains the bane weapon special ability against creatures with the earth subtype and constructs or objects made of earth or stone. This ability only functions while the druadin wields the weapon imbued with her stonestrike ability.

    Greater Stonebane (Su): At 17th level, whenever a druadin uses her stonebane ability, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the earth subtype and constructs or objects made of earth or stone increases to 4d6.

    Stone Body (Ex): At 20th level, a druadin's body transforms into living stone. She no longer needs to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep, and she becomes immune to paralysis, poison, and stunning. She is also no longer subject to critical hits or precision-based damage.

    Table: Druadin
    Base
    Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
    Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

    1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Domain, orisons, spirit sense, stonestrike 3 1 — — — — —
    2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Heart stone +1, place magic 4 2 — — — — —
    3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Stone blood (25%) 4 3 — — — — —
    4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Defensive stance 4 3 1 — — — —
    5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Stone servant 4 4 2 — — — —
    6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Heart stone +2 5 4 3 — — — —
    7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Earth form 1/day 5 4 3 1 — — —
    8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Defensive stance 5 4 4 2 — — —
    9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Stone blood (50%) 5 5 4 3 — — —
    10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Heart stone +3 5 5 4 3 1 — —
    11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Stonebane 5 5 4 4 2 — —
    12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Defensive stance 5 5 5 4 3 — —
    13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Earth form 2/day 5 5 5 4 3 1 —
    14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Heart stone +4 5 5 5 4 4 2 —
    15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Stone blood (75%) 5 5 5 5 4 3 —
    16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Defensive stance 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
    17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Greater stonebane 5 5 5 5 4 4 2
    18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Heart stone +5 5 5 5 5 5 4 3
    19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Earth form 3/day 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
    20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Defensive stance, stone body 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    I like a lot of what you did Elghinn, but honestly I think your end result is a little bit overpowered. Specifically, the ability to stack defensive stance with stoneform (while cool and thematic) is very potent... I can't think of any other paizo published class or archetype that lets you stack two such solid buffs without all the sacrifices of actual multiclassing...


    nate lange wrote:
    I like a lot of what you did Elghinn, but honestly I think your end result is a little bit overpowered. Specifically, the ability to stack defensive stance with stoneform (while cool and thematic) is very potent... I can't think of any other paizo published class or archetype that lets you stack two such solid buffs without all the sacrifices of actual multiclassing...

    Stoneform? Do you mean earth form? Glad you like it. Now, if you think it's a little bit OP, then I'm not worried. That said, we can easily make it so that a defensive stance cannot be used while in earth form. And this isn't multiclassing, its class hybriding, which is a bit different.

    Essentially, this is a stonelord paladin, dropped to d8 HD, and loses heavy armor, aura of good, detect evil, lay on hands, aura of courage, earth channel, aura of resolve, aura faith, phase strike, aura of righteousness, and mobile defense.

    Then spell casting is increased to 6th level (4th level casting is equal to 3 feats, increasing to 6th would be another 3 feats, approx.), and he gains orisons, domain, spirit sense, place magic, and earth form (wild shape) up to 3 times.

    Frankly, I don't think its all that OP. I think the losses out weight the gains in swap for swap, but the versatility of druid and paladin spells makes up for that.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    Right, I understand what you're doing and the process behind it. My comment about multiclassing was because normally the only way you could stack two such potent buffs (as defensive stance and earthform) would be to suffer the penalties of true multiclassing. A druid who took a level of stalwart defender (or stonelord if your GM let you around the alignment restrictions) could stack defensive stance with wild shape for the same combo at 13th level, but only for something like 4-8 rounds each day, and it would slow the progression on all their druid abilities... With this archetype you could be in earthform 24/7 by 12th level and at 13th (when you get the final tier) could combo defensive stance with it for 28 +Con mod rounds per day (which is likely a lot longer than you'll be in combat). That's a total of +12 Str, +8 Con, +7 AC (+6 natural +2 dodge -1 Dex), and +2 Will effectively all the time.

    The bottom line is it's his game and he can allow or ban whatever he wants, it doesn't effect me any. I'm just trying to help people consider game balance as much as how cool things seem.


    I'm all for balance. Could always spread out the progression a bit more, like this, pushing the highest upgrade 3 levels later. Done that in many other MCarchetypes we've produced over the years.

    Earth Form (Sp): At 7th level, a druadin gains the ability to turn herself into any Small elemental and back again once per day. This ability functions like the elemental body I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druadin level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to elemental or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an earth elemental the druadin is familiar with.
    A druadin can use this ability an additional time per day at 11th level and 19th level. As a druadin gains in levels, this ability allows the druadin to take on the form of larger elementals. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.

    At 10th level, a druadin can use earth form to change into a Medium elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druadin's earth form now functions as elemental body II.

    At 13th level, a druadin can use earth form to change into a Large elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druadin's earth form now functions as elemental body III.

    At 16th level, a druadin can use earth form to change into a Huge elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druadin's earth form now functions as elemental body IV.

    Could go 7/11/15/19, but I think that pushes it too far beyond the original 13th level.


    @Nate - Thanks so much for the detailed feedback! It's really helpful, particularly the fact that you've given several options, and lines up pretty much with my own thinking. I'm engaged in a dialogue with the player about exactly which way we're going to go with the class - once we've reached a conclusion, I'll come back here and lay out what we decided on.

    @Elghinn - Thank you for working up a complete hybrid class. I also found this really helpful and thought-provoking - and it's particularly useful to see the whole class laid out. Like nate, my instinct is that it's a little bit strong, but I'd have to see it in play to be sure. Personally, I might drop earth form (although I think the idea of this ability is very clever) and stone servant (as I'm not generally in favour of summoning extra creatures), and instead put a couple of other abilities in (perhaps mobile defense and venom immunity or walk the lines).

    How about "stone savant" as a name for the class?


    @Elghinn wrote:

    - Thank you for working up a complete hybrid class. I also found this really helpful and thought-provoking - and it's particularly useful to see the whole class laid out. Like nate, my instinct is that it's a little bit strong, but I'd have to see it in play to be sure. Personally, I might drop earth form (although I think the idea of this ability is very clever) and stone servant (as I'm not generally in favour of summoning extra creatures), and instead put a couple of other abilities in (perhaps mobile defense and venom immunity or walk the lines).

    How about "stone savant" as a name for the class?

    You are more than welcome to make changes to the hybrid. Stone Savant would work. Possibly Stone Guardian, Stone Defender, Earth Savant, Stone Warden, Earth Warden, Stone Protector...

    EDIT
    In addition, if you want to drop stone servant and earth form, how about these abilities instead?

    Earthen Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a druadin may move through any sort of difficult terrain of an earthen or stone nature (such as rock slides, rough mountain roads, crags, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Earth or stone hazards or area that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.

    Resist Earthen Power (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a druadin gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like and supernatural abilities of creatures from the elemental plane of earth. This bonus also applies to spells and effects that target stone, such as stone spikes, stone call, transmute rock to mud, and stone shape.

    Stone Glide (Sp): At 7th level, a druadin can earth glide (as the spell) once per day, using her druadin level as her caster level. At 12th level, the druadin can move at a half her normal speed when using this ability. At 17th level, the druadin can move her normal speed when using this ability.

    Earthen Defense (Ex): At 13th level, a druadin gains immunity to petrification and receives a +4 bonus on saving throws or to CMD to resist any attempt to push, pull, bull rush, or drag her, or to resist any other effect that would physically move her from her position (e.g., repel wood, reverse gravity, or being blown away by high winds). This does not protect her against being tripped, grappled, or overrun.

    Stone Form (Ex): At 19th level, a druadin can transform hers body into a weathered stone outcrop and back at will. This effect functions as statue.


    You guys have probably forgotten all about this thread, but I wanted to make good on my promise to come back and let you know how it turned out. In the end, I gave my player the choice between two, slightly different, versions of the hybrid class. The first took the menhir savant and changed the following abilities:

    • Proficiency with their deity's chosen weapon replaces proficiency with all natural attacks
    • Heartstone replaces nature bond
    • Defensive stance, defensive power, and mobile defense replace wild shape
    • Stoneblood replaces venom immunity, and the 9th-level stoneblood improvement replaces timeless body
    • Spontaneous casting is changed as follows: A menhir lord chooses a domain usually available to druids via nature bond, but she does not gain the domain powers or bonus spells. Instead, she can channel stored spell energy into spells associated with the chosen domain that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any spell from the chosen domain spell list of the same level or lower.

    The second version was the same, with the addition of stonestrike and a reduction to 6-level casting (and regaining venom immunity).

    So, what did he go for? In the end, he chose neither option, and elected to simply rebuild his menhir savant as a more melee-focussed character!

    Thanks again for all your help - it was a very interesting discussion and process.

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