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Hi all,
I expect to hit level 12 with my Sorcerer in Runelords tonight and I still can't decide which spell to pick as my first level 6 spell.
She's a gnomish shadow (umbral) sorcerer focused on shadow spells (Duh).
Only spells from Core + APG are allowed!
Here's what I got so far:
1- Color Spray, Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement
2- Darkvision, False Life, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
3- Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Fly, Heroism, Slow
4- Dimension Door, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Conjuration, Wandering Star Motes
5- Overland Flight, Phantasmal Web, Shadow Evocation
Notes:
- No Haste because we have a buff/support bard and a life oracle with Blessing of Fervor.
- I tried Phantasmal Web but found it lacking. Will switch it out for Teleport on level up.
- I'm not too concerned with defensive spells since I have Shadow Well (which is basically Hide in plain Sight) and a good stealth score.
- Relevant feats: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Reach Spell, Persistent Spell, Spell Penetration. Will get Quicken at 13.
- Spells with saves are hard to land. We are a 6-player party and GM adjusts by handing out the advanced templates left and right and increasing HP.
- We're in the middle of a dungeon that will probably go on for quite some time. Anything with an expensive material or focus component (like Contingency) is not feasible right now.
So far, Disintegrate was my favorite. However, the save DC is somewhat low at 23, so most enemies that are strong enough to warrant a level 6 spell will probably save very easily. I also considered Chain Lightning but against groups of enemies, I'd rather use my control/disable spells.
Summon Monster VI would probably be a good and versatile spell but the party is already so large that I'm reluctant to add more stuff to the fight.
I can easily use my 6th level slots for persistent 4th level spells so maybe something a bit more situational would work? I know we're up against a powerful spellcaster so maybe Greater Dispel Magic?
Any other ideas on what to pick?
Antimagic Field- maybe not something to keep but it is a brutal caster shutdown
Form of the Dragon- beaughtiful buff. Can still cast spells fine in dragon form
Summon Monster VI- a good set of spells
Permanent Image- best part is no material component so have fun with the duration
Cold Ice Strike- not control but will let you use those swift action
Worth mentioning that Chain Lightning and Greater Dispel magic are both great spells. Disintegrate is more of a problem solving tool sadly. It is the best way through a wall of anything really
Antimagic Field - The mage we are up against happens to be a giant. Our melee guys are a magus and a paladin and pretty much useless in an anitmagic field whereas the giant is still hitting hard.
Form of the Dragon - Nice buff, but I don't see much profit for my build. It's not like it's turning my Str 6 gnome into a melee killing machine.
Summon Monster VI - Full round casting negates my defense (stealth) pretty badly. And as I said, the party is already pretty big and I don't want to clutter the battlefield even more.
Permanent Image - Hm... interesting choice. Would probably have to ask my GM how he handles interaction with illusions. Still might require too much sublety and planning ahead for my taste (and for the party).
Cold Ice Strike - Not available. Even if it was, I can probably do almost the same thing with Quickened Scorching Ray next level.
True Seeing or Greater Dispel Magic IMO. Either is a useful counter vs. a powerful spellcaster, depending on the details.
Greater Dispel Magic is your no-brainer at that level.
Swap Phantasmal web for Wall of stone.
The next level will give you Shadow walk, which basically emulates teleport and plane shift, as your bloodline spell. If you can wait for lv.13, you won't really need teleport.
I'm positive that anything requiring any sort of coordination with the party will most likely result in disaster. AMF is a bad choice for this group.
True Seeing won't work because I don't have a quick and easy access to the component.
Greater Dispel does seem pretty nice. Dispeling buffs or maybe even counterspelling a dangerous attack or two will probably ruin my GM's day.
GM actually lets me get my bloodline spells a level early, so I get Shdaow Walk at 12. I thought about not getting Teleport because of that. Still, we did have very little downtime lately and an instaneous travel spell is better than a very fast one. On the other hand, Shadow Walk would work for the whole party unlike Teleport at that level.
Great, now I might need another level 5 spells as well. :D
The Oracle already has Wall of Stone so I could pick something else.
Sirocco?
Summon monster 6 is an excellent spell that will offer a lot of variety,you may not like to place an extra body on the field but it offers so many options for one single spell, very important for a sorcerer.
Mass Suggestion. Amazing spell against any group of opponents, with multiple saves made you will take someone out of the fight and with clever wording they could end up helping you. "surrender and restrain your allies who continue to fight if you want them to live"
Even if another party member can cast it, I would still pick wall of stone with a sorcerer... Anyway, you might also appreciate prying eyes for scouting or telekinesis for its versatility.
If you think you'll need teleport so badly, just buy a couple of scrolls (or scrolls of greater teleport: you automatically succeed at your CL check with 1d20+12 vs DC13 as there is no automatic failure for rolling 1 on CL check).
SM VI is indeed a very versatile spell, but I think it's still a 2nd pick for a sorcerer: Greater Dispel Magic is really a must-have.
Mass suggestion is very powerful but very enemy-dependent, especially at that level (enchantment + mind-affecting + language-dependent + will negate + GM-dependent... Ouch!).
I agree with the others who have endorsed Greater Dispel Magic. It has a high level of versatility and usefulness, particularly in a campaign where you will be facing enemy casters.
One subtle trick to assist in making it more effective: pick up a bunch of Myrrh to use as an alchemical power component to give the spell a +1 to CL for dispel checks.
I'm always a fan of Disintegrate. I've used it out of combat to remove doors/traps/walls about as much as I've used it to blast monsters.
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I recommend Planar Binding, it would take a bit more preparation and perhaps a couple of spell substitutions or caster co-operation to work consistently, but I've always felt that calling spells are fairly underutilized. I don't know if you're limited by Bestiary in terms of what creatures you can call, but if you're going for the Shadow theme Sacristan Kytons (B4) are from the Shadow Plane, have 12 HD and can be restrained by a magic circle vs. evil or law while you negotiate for services, your Spell Pen. will likely overcome its SR. Also as a lawful evil outsider they're unlikely to betray you once you've reached an agreement, just be careful of loopholes. Similarly the Shadow template (B4) can be used to create other creatures from the Shadow Plane that you could potentially call, see if your GM is amenable to you calling upon an entity that perhaps has some familial connection to you?
Won't knock Greater Dispel Magic either though, a perfectly good spell to have several times a day.
Mislead is also there if you want Greater Invisibility +
5th level spell recommendations:
- Seeming: A.K.A Disguise Party
- Telekinesis: Turn your fighter into a projectile
- Teleport: Fast travel
- Wall of Force Divide and conquer, plus most incorporeals can't pass through
- Waves of Fatigue No save, hurts most martials, murders barbarians.
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John beat me to this one while I was looking at 6th level spells. For 5th, you could take Wall of Force instead of Wall of Stone. A lot of overlap in combat, but will affect Incorporeal or burrowing/stone melding creatures as well. It's not as configurable, and no permanent structure, but you can see through it. Anyway, just a thought.
For 6th level, Greater Dispel Magic sounds like a winner.
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Sirocco is an AMAZING battlefield control spell. Make a giant cylinder of hot wind that deals fire damage and forces a fort save or Fatigue. Fail two of those and they become Exhausted, which is a really debilitating condition. Works on flying creatures just as well as landbound ones. Really top notch.
Enemy Hammer is, if nothing else, a really fun spell. Pick an enemy, and each turn you can use your standard action to force them to make a fort save or get flung into another enemy, lose their actions, and deal damage to both enemies. Good for long adventuring days, since you can use your standard action for rounds/level to contribute to combat. Also has a long range, which means you may well be able to sneak up to a group and cause total havoc from the shadows 800 ft away.
Form of the Dragon I is worth considering not necessarily because you intend to engage in combat yourself, but because of the action economy of casting it compared to all of the other spells it would take to gain its effects. Consider that with one standard action, you gain:
- +4 Strength - equivalent to Bull's Strength, 2nd level spell
- +2 Constitution - equivalent to half of Bear's Endurance, 2nd level spell
- +4 Natural Armor - equivalent to Barkskin, 2nd level spell
- Fly speed 60 ft (poor) - almost equivalent to Fly, 3rd level spell
- Darkvision 60 ft - almost equivalent to Darkvision, 2nd level spell (sans long duration)
- Breath weapon (6d8) - roughly equivalent to a 3rd level spell
- Resist energy - roughly equivalent to a 2nd level spell
- Burrow or Swim speed - roughly equivalent to a 3rd level spell
Not all of those are going to be especially useful all of the time, especially with Overland Flight already on your spell list. But you also get to be a goddamn dragon. So, worth considering.
Anyway, good luck with your megadungeon!
Chains of Light - reflex based no SR helplessness, very strong even if it does allow a save.
The OP can only pick spells from the CRB and APG.
Update: We did hit level 12 yesterday. We haven't rested since then, however, and the GM ruled stuff like picking and switching spells happen on rest. So I have more time to come up with a decent spell selection. We may or may not play early next week, giving me at least 5 more days.
Thanks again for all suggestions so far!
Planar Binding requires too much preparation and planning for this character. I basically try to have her adjust to any situation by shaping her shadow spells into appropriate effects. Like yesterday, when we were fighting a bunch of giants and a strong giant general appeared and started to attack us. I used Shadow Evocation to put him in a Resilient Sphere removing him from combat until we finished off his henchmen.
Sirocco and Enemy Hammer are nice but a bit too useless when the enemies make their save.
Form of the Dragon is a decent buff with various effects but most of those are redundant with spells or abilities I use/have anyway, or outright useless like the strength bonus. Would be pretty good as a day-long buff (or at least 10 min/level) but with the limited duration, I don't think it's worth it, especially as (so far) only level 6 spells.
Contingency is very nice and probably my second level 6 spells if I have a chance to get my hand on the required focus.
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So, I think about getting Greater Dispel Magic as first 6th level spell. Probably Contingency second.
Still don't know which level 5 spel I'll take. Next large city is about 250 miles away, which is like 5 hours with Shadow Walk. Not too bad, so I might not need Teleport after all.
I don't think I'll get Wall of Stone. We have 3 casters with Dimension Door, so getting around obstacles is easy enough. For divide and conquer, Wall of Ice via Shadow Evocation works almost just as well. Neither wall will do more than provide a slight delay against giants. Wall of Force would be a different story.
Telekinesis is another spell I've wanted to try for some time. Grappling enemy mages at range sounds fun!
All of the spells mentioned here are great, but my choice is Summon Monster VI. For my first spell of a given level I always choose versatility; it's not funny to have a silver bullet as your only spell.
With Summon Monster VI you can get some meat shields, a heavy hitter, a grappler, an invisible scout, access to True Seeing, Charm Monster, Invisibility, several Cure spells, Bardic Peformance, etc.
That is a lot of versatility.
Sirocco and Enemy Hammer are nice but a bit too useless when the enemies make their save.
It's worth noting that Sirocco applies fatigue as long as the enemy in question takes damage from the spell. The Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the effect of knocking the opponent prone. The spell is also one round per level and will exhaust people who are fatigued (from earlier rounds of this spell or otherwise). It will average around 28 damage, half of that is 14 so even creatures with resist ten fire that make their save are still going to become fatigued, and 1 round later exhausted. It's only weak against Fire resist 15 or higher, and fire immune or fatigue immune foes.
I'm always a fan of Disintegrate. I've used it out of combat to remove doors/traps/walls about as much as I've used it to blast monsters.
I'm surprised this came this late in the thread... but if you're at least minimally combat oriented (as your having scorching ray and phantasmal killer indicate), Disintegrate is a great offensive spell, if a bit hard on the treasure. Otherwise, I concur with those who suggest Greater Dispel Magic.
@Errant_Epoch: Sirocco does sound rather nice. I'll admit I was not aware that the fatigue (and possibly exhaustion) is almost guaranteed. Makes the spell quite a bit better than I thought. Still, I don't think the spell is what I'm looking for for my shadow sorc. But I'll be sure to make a mental note to include it in any future wizards or druid!
@Dalindra: The full round casting time kinda kills the Summon Monster line for me. My current tactic boils down to cast, then use stealth with shadow well to hide until it's my turn again. Can't do that when casting Summon Monster. Also, being a shadow spell specialist, I'll use Greater Shadow Evocation to get access to all those SLAs once we hit level 14.
@andreww: Life Bubble is a bit too situational for my liking. At least for a spntaneous caster. Still a good spell, though.
@Klorox: The save DC for Disintegrate would be pretty low at 23. Anything strong enough to warrant the use of a level 6 spell at CR 10+ is probably also strong enough to make the save.
@Klorox: The save DC for Disintegrate would be pretty low at 23. Anything strong enough to warrant the use of a level 6 spell at CR 10+ is probably also strong enough to make the save.
There are times that it's more useful for removing the 10' cube of stuff - widening doorways, destroying support structures, removing doors, etc.