I've been reading through all of the Hellknight information to see if I could find the answer, but I'd also like to have a second opinion on the matter.
As it stands, an Armiger in the ranks of the knights is someone who is tied to the order, but hasn't succeeded at the test. However, if they succeed, they are ranked as a Hellknight and can wear the armor, etcetera etcetera.
This is where my question comes in: Do you need to take levels in the Hellknight prestige class to hold a rank above Armiger, or is completion of the test sufficient?
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It depends on the GM, I'd say. If it were me, I'd say that as long as you passed the initiation test then the Hellknights are going to consider you a Hellknight, PrC or not.
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Even if you took a level of the prestige class at first opportunity, it is highly unlikely that the hellknight fight with a devil can be scheduled so that it results in enough XP to gain a level. I would agree that the test is key.
However, if you do not otherwise qualify for the prestige class, I could see some senior Hellknights telling you that they don't think you are ready to take the test.
You must take a rank in Hellknight.
Alternately you can back door the process with fluff by being Dark Archive in PFS.
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You must take a rank in Hellknight.
Alternately you can back door the process with fluff by being Dark Archive in PFS.
Why? As long as you passed the Hellknight Initiation test, why would it matter if your character sheet had "Fighter" on it instead of "Hellknight," as far as interactions with NPC Hellknights are concerned?
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Hellknights are an order and a prestige class. Pretty much everyone takes levels in the prestige class (except for the Hellknight Signifiers) but the point is passing the initiation tests. The Prestige Class levels aren't really directly connected to your rank in the order. (Your total character level or power probably is)
So you could technically just be a fighter who is really good at killing devils and upholding the law.
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Marking for interest.
Passing the Hellknight initiation test doesn't make you a Hellknight, it makes you eligible to join the prestige classes - which in turn allow you to be a Hellknight (or Signifier)
Those who achieve this deed fulfill the deadliest requirement of the Hellknight and Hellknight signifer prestige classes (see Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide and Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige, respectively.)
Similarly, you can look to the Cavaliers in the Order of the Ennead Star
Like other Hellknights, most members of this order begin their service by undergoing training at a Hellknight citadel or instruction from a true Hellknight. Most eventually pursue levels in the Hellknight prestige class, looking ahead to the day when they will face their lethal test against the forces of Hell.Until then, members of the order of the Ennead Star are typically Hellknight armigers or other initiates with dispensation to quest and quell disorder wherever they might find it.
So you could be a level 19 ARMIGER, you pass the test, you buy your PRC level, you become a Hellknight.
Qualifying for a PRC, and being that PRC are two different conversations.
At present there is also no way of gaining a higher rank either - level 20 = still a Hellknight by RAW.
So you could technically just be a fighter who is really good at killing devils and upholding the law.
Which is the 'fluff' version of the PrC which people can buy as a Faction option in PFS.
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Let's have a look at what the book has to say, shall we? ^_^
Becoming a Hellknight requires passing the Hellknight test (see page 8), which can fulfill the special requirements of the Hellknight prestige class (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide 278) or the Hellknight signifer prestige class (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige 28).
At any time, an armiger may petition to take the Hellknight test (see page 8). Those who fail die and are not mourned; those who pass become Hellknights.
Only those who pass the trial are true Hellknights.
Like other Hellknights, most members of this order begin their service by undergoing training at a Hellknight citadel or instruction from a true Hellknight. Most eventually pursue levels in the Hellknight prestige class, looking ahead to the day when they will face their lethal test against the forces of Hell.
Until then, members of the order of the Ennead Star are typically Hellknight armigers or other initiates with dispensation to quest and quell disorder wherever they might find it.
If anyone has an official source that explicitly says "You must have levels in the Hellknight or Hellknight signifer prestige class to be considered a true Hellknight", I honestly would love to see it. I've looked very deeply into this, for various reasons, and not found anything.
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I haven't found anything either, but I'd like to point out that every Hellknight NPC I've come across has actual Hellknight/Signifier levels. If they don't they're always Armigers.
The only exception I was able to find is Signifier Oritian Hast, from The Emerald Spire. He's Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4.
Now I understand NPCs may have nothing to do with this, but I find it helps to see where the developers are coming from sometimes.
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Being a member of the Hellknights does not require having class levels in any of the Hellknight prestige classes.
Many members do, I might even say most. But it is not a requirement.
Please keep the fluff and mechanics separate. Any Lawful character can choose to dedicate themselves to the order of he Hellknights and participate in their goals. It does require passing the initiation test, and then would likely require training and time with the Hellknights. But it does not require the actual investment of class levels.
In PFS there is a vanity that allows anyone to effectively become a Hellknight, as long as they belong to the correct faction and spend the required resources.
Armiger (Fame 20, 2 PP)
Though still a loyal Pathfinder, your service to Cheliax grants you admission into a Hellknight order of your choice with the rank of armiger.
You gain a +3 bonus on Diplomacy checks made against Hellknights of any order or rank.
Hellknight (Fame 40, 2 PP, Armiger)
Yout continued loyalty to Cheliax and your Hellknight order earn you the honorary rank of Hellknight (or signifer if you are a spellcaster), granting you a +3 bonus on Intimidate checks when wearing heavy armor. This rank is granted independently of levels in the Hellknight prestige class.
I remain highly unconvinced that someone without the Hellknight PrC can otherwise be called a Hellknight.
Qualifying for something isn't the same as being that thing, otherwise we could be Lion Blade Hellknight Grey Maidens or something. My Paladin is now a Wizard, just doesn't have Wizard levels.
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Soooooo Gray Maidens don't exist since they don't have a Prestige Class associated with them?
The Hellknight organization existed before the Hellknight class. The Lion Blades existed before the Lion Blade class.
You can join an organization without taking its corresponding prestige class, as there's absolutely nothing that says you must take it in order to join.
The vanities you mentioned, using high up connections you have to allow nepotism to put you into the organization just add to that.
Correct - there is a mechanical process to achieve said status.
Similarly one Order calls out people progressing (in specific cases) through non Hellknight PrC levels.
If you didn't require PrC levels to become a Hellknight then those call outs would be moot.
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I've been reading through all of the Hellknight information to see if I could find the answer, but I'd also like to have a second opinion on the matter.
As it stands, an Armiger in the ranks of the knights is someone who is tied to the order, but hasn't succeeded at the test. However, if they succeed, they are ranked as a Hellknight and can wear the armor, etcetera etcetera.
This is where my question comes in: Do you need to take levels in the Hellknight prestige class to hold a rank above Armiger, or is completion of the test sufficient?
My Chelaxian Summoner holds a higher rank without a single level in the Hellknight class. Rank in the organisation, like many organisations, is based on prestige, not class levels.
How?
Based on a set of RAW or just by home game adjudication? If you have an official set of published info that shows how this is codified that would be awesome.
In a home game we can waive and change what we like.
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How?
Based on a set of RAW or just by home game adjudication? If you have an official set of published info that shows how this is codified that would be awesome.
In a home game we can waive and change what we like.
PFS prestige awards. back from the days when Cheliax was a player faction.
There is actually nothing in the text that says that levels in the PrC is a pre-requisite to rank in the organisation.Advancement in class levels is just one method. Just as you can have priests who don't have a single level in cleric. (Rather common in the church of Nethys. Where characters with wizard levels typically have higher rank than characters with cleric levels.) Character roles are not the same thing as class levels.
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In PFS there is a vanity that allows anyone to effectively become a Hellknight, as long as they belong to the correct faction and spend the required resources.
Armiger (Fame 20, 2 PP)
Though still a loyal Pathfinder, your service to Cheliax grants you admission into a Hellknight order of your choice with the rank of armiger.
You gain a +3 bonus on Diplomacy checks made against Hellknights of any order or rank.Hellknight (Fame 40, 2 PP, Armiger)
Yout continued loyalty to Cheliax and your Hellknight order earn you the honorary rank of Hellknight (or signifer if you are a spellcaster), granting you a +3 bonus on Intimidate checks when wearing heavy armor. This rank is granted independently of levels in the Hellknight prestige class.I remain highly unconvinced that someone without the Hellknight PrC can otherwise be called a Hellknight.
Qualifying for something isn't the same as being that thing, otherwise we could be Lion Blade Hellknight Grey Maidens or something. My Paladin is now a Wizard, just doesn't have Wizard levels.
And again, if your character has a history of great service to the Lion Blades, it's completely appropriate that the organisation may well induct her without a single level in a Prc. Just as the bulk of the Pathfinders don't have a single level in the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class.
Keep in mind that things such as class levels are game abstractions, they are the skeleton on which the meat of story is applied... not the story itself.
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How?
Based on a set of RAW or just by home game adjudication? If you have an official set of published info that shows how this is codified that would be awesome.
In a home game we can waive and change what we like.
Fascinatingly, this is exactly how many of your assertions on this matter could be described or responded to. Unless, of course, you have
an official set of published info that shows how this is codified
to back up your statements.
GM TP,
The mere existence of the Hellknight (And Signifier) PrC's is clearly RAW.
That there are numerous NPC Hellknights already printed up in official material, all but one of whom are Hellknights with Hellknight PrC levels. That those who don't (with that one exception) are called Armigers in their text description.
That one of the Orders specifically states there is (subject to their needs) the opportunity to progress to Hellknight without taking the PrC.
That there exist a range of Faction vanities (which you pay for) that provide a way to become a Hellknight without taking the PrC.
That there is a current PFS Boon which allows you to become a Hellknight - by retraining your characters levels (for free) into the Hellknight PrC.
Got anything that clearly and unambiguously refutes the existence of ALL of the above to support your position?
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"I've decided it works this way! Prove me wrong!"
lol
PFS prestige awards. back from the days when Cheliax was a player faction.
Cool - which Prestige award was that? The Cheliax faction rolled into Dark Archive and the awards remained the same (Armiger & Hellknight) per page 15 of the Pathfinder Society Field Guide - was it some boon off a chronicle sheet?
If there were other published PFS materials that related to Hellknights and Cheliax faction could you kindly post them up? PFSFG only lets you take Hellknight and Armiger.
As far as I can find there is no other written material stipulating how to become a Maralictor/Paralictor etc.
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PFS prestige awards. back from the days when Cheliax was a player faction.
Cool - which Prestige award was that? The Cheliax faction rolled into Dark Archive and the awards remained the same (Armiger & Hellknight) per page 15 of the Pathfinder Society Field Guide - was it some boon off a chronicle sheet?
If there were other published PFS materials that related to Hellknights and Cheliax faction could you kindly post them up? PFSFG only lets you take Hellknight and Armiger.
As far as I can find there is no other written material stipulating how to become a Maralictor/Paralictor etc.
It was a set of vanities you could purchase if you had enough prestige points in the (now retired) Chelaxian faction.
It was a set of vanities you could purchase if you had enough prestige points in the (now retired) Chelaxian faction.
But where were they published?
They aren't in the Field Guide, nor Seekers of Secrets, or in the guide to organised play from those early seasons.
The old Cheliax faction appears to only grant a person Hellknight/Signifier, or Armiger.
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Cool - which Prestige award was that? The Cheliax faction rolled into Dark Archive and the awards remained the same (Armiger & Hellknight) per page 15 of the Pathfinder Society Field Guide - was it some boon off a chronicle sheet?
Up to a point. You could only purchased vanities of the old factions if your character was a member of that faction. And you had to do so before conversion. My now retired Summoner was such a grandfathered character, but my Psychic who is only Dark Archive. can not purchase them.
Would still love to see the (outdated) source.
Dark Archive rolled the vanities over from Cheliax unchanged, so happy to see your old source material as it would shed some light on the progression past the rank of Hellknight.
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GM TP,
The mere existence of the Hellknight (And Signifier) PrC's is clearly RAW.
That there are numerous NPC Hellknights already printed up in official material, all but one of whom are Hellknights with Hellknight PrC levels. That those who don't (with that one exception) are called Armigers in their text description.
That one of the Orders specifically states there is (subject to their needs) the opportunity to progress to Hellknight without taking the PrC.
That there exist a range of Faction vanities (which you pay for) that provide a way to become a Hellknight without taking the PrC.
That there is a current PFS Boon which allows you to become a Hellknight - by retraining your characters levels (for free) into the Hellknight PrC.
Got anything that clearly and unambiguously refutes the existence of ALL of the above to support your position?
Base Pathfinder doesn't use vanities or have fame or prestige. These are mechanics only for PFS format play. PFS format play does not apply to the whole of Pathfinder. The vanities exist so that a player can go from one GM to the next and say "I'm a Hellknight" and out of character have some level of proof. Proof that isn't required when you game with the same group and same GM every time. So all of your arguments about PFS don't matter.
Yes, the Hellknight and Signifier prestige classes exist, that is RAW. But nowhere in the classes does it say "must be this class to be Hellknight".
There are numerous sources of Hellknights with the class in printed materials....okay? Again, none of those say you must be a Hellknight class to be a Hellknight. It just so happens most are. Someone has already mentioned the existence of at least 1 NPC that doesn't have those class levels.
I don't know your source for "the one order states that you could be a Hellknight without the PrC" but that would seem to be on the opposite side of what you're saying. While only one order specifies this, just because the other orders don't specify doesn't mean anything.
What is needed would be a hard rule that says "In order to be a member of the Hellknights organization you are required to be have at least 1 level in Hellknight or Signifier". But you wont find such a statement. You are trying to read between the lines and reading into things that aren't there.
As for this argument. I wont continue to argue with you, and will simply say it appears the majority of people agree that you do not need to take levels in the PrC, and 1 individual is incredibly staunchly opposed to this.
The reason we discussed PFS is that it brings into existence a range of ideas and guidelines that are relevant to the discussion at hand - ie opportunities to be a Hellknight WITHOUT taking the PrC. It makes sense to look at as much printed material as possible on the matter as there is only a limited amount.
The source for the order in question is the Path of the Hellknight.
Feel free not to argue, you don't need to - in a home game you can do what you like, you can make all your Hellknights CN wizards if you want.
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Feel free not to argue, you don't need to - in a home game you can do what you like, you can make all your Hellknights CN wizards if you want.
This is why I'm done with you. You take anyone who's at the slightest variance with your claims, and twist their statements to apply that they are arguing for some ridiculous strawman position.
Just because someone says that the PrC doesn't neccessarily describe every member of every HellKnight order out there, doesn't mean that they intend to open the door to every Chaotic crazy.
If you're a GM, than run it however strictly you want. That's the right, the power, the glory of being a GameMaster. You don't need your stance validated by shooting down everyone else's.
Yes, If I felt like filling my Hellknight orders with Pixies, I would. I don't because I respect the source material and the folks who wrote it. I also recognize that that source material is a springboard... not a cage.
For 4/9 and 6/9 casters, being a Hellknight without having to take either type of Hellknight prestige class levels would work a lot better, due to the loss of class feature progression and either loss of spellcasting progression or the continuation of your already slow spellcasting progression with class features that are balanced for a 9/9 caster (the Catechesis ability of Hellknight Signifer actually does a decent job of progressing the non-spellcasting abilities of a Cleric or Oracle, but not for 4/9 or 6/9 casters). Unfortunately, the Hellknights don't seem to try very hard to appeal to 4/9 or 9/9 casters, and the Magus archetype that looks like it is supposed to be for them is just bad.
This is why I'm done with you.
So then you DON'T have the material you said you had? And rather than just say you didn't have it/were making things up you just go and engage in ad-homs?
Classy.
This is why I'm done with you.
So then you DON'T have the material you said you had? And rather than just say you didn't have it/were making things up you just go and engage in ad-homs?
Classy.
1. The material I have is in several forms... including Herolab plugins. I don't have Path of the Hellknight, because frankly, Hellknights don't interest me enough to purchase it. And I have more than enough existing material to run and create a Hellknight NPC if I need to.
2. Others have already given you it's titles if you bothered to read above.
3. I really am not motivated to go digging around for it, since I haven't used it in the better part of a year, especially not for you.
I have to agree with the folks who say you don't have to have the PrC to be a Hellknight.
It serves no purpose to limit a group that was primarily built as antagonists to having to all be cookie-cuttered out of the same prestige class.
But, basically, the GM can do what he wills. The players must abide, or find a new GM.
3. I really am not motivated to go digging around for it, since I haven't used it in the better part of a year, especially not for you.
Because you made it up.
That's ok.
It serves no purpose to limit a group that was primarily built as antagonists to having to all be cookie-cuttered out of the same prestige class.
They would end up as Storm Troopers :p
Creative Director
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You don't have to have levels in the Hellknight prestige class to be an official Hellknight. It's the most common path characters take to gain power, but it's not required at all.
Also, don't be jerks. It depresses me how often I have to remind folks of that.
Thanks James, interesting stuff.
Nice to have a definitive answer on the matter - happy with that.
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The only one making stuff up in this thread is you, Shifty.
This was always a discussion about pulling out a bunch of resources to see what they say so that some kind of position could be formed.
If someone comes into that discussion and says something is true because they have a resource that demonstrates their point, it is reasonable to ask them to provide a copy or the details so that it can add to the conversation - now despite Claxon pointing out Drahlianas material didn't matter, I thought it was interesting and asked for a copy.
Rather than provide any of this material that was asked for it simply became that poster dancing around the issue before refusing to provide it, stating other people already had - which is pretty clearly not the case. The only PFS/Hellknight material out there is stuff I mentioned.
Claxon asked for a source about a statement, and was provided the answer to that - Path of the Hellknight, so I am unclear why Drahliana decided to go off on a tangent as though answering Claxons question was somehow in any way related to them. I suppose it provided a pre-text to justifying the way out of a sticky situation.
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Hey man, just drop it ok. JJ came on and answered the question. All else is irrelevant, unless you wish to discuss home rules or home brew.
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Not to reopen this particular wound, but this appears to be the vanity in question:
Not to reopen this particular wound, but this appears to be the vanity in question:
Yep that was the one I cited :)